my review of this game/demo as an AoEII/SC2/WC3/Dota2 player.

[mN]

first off I want to point out that this is a casual RTS, less micro-management required compared to similar genre. units cant be individually managed, it stacked your units as "groups". same concept if you play Total War Warhammer games (this is a good feature, less micro-management needed, you only focus on your groups health bar instead of individual units HP bar). first thing that I noticed that is a slow-paced RTS. (slow paced might be an understatement here).

pros:
-graphics are ok, nothing mindblowing
-units are being stacked to groups/unit types (less stress on micro-managing units)
-aimed for casuals
-watching your units in combats while zoomed in is fun
-theres only 4 units types: charge fast units, tank units, archer units, and special units like heroes (why this is a pros is because its easier to remember and not overwhelming for casual players)
-keybindings freedom are present (except that i cant map (ctrl+1-9 to alt+1-9)

cons:
-game are slow AF. i dont mind the slow paced style at first, but after a while, it just slowly rotten my brain of how ridiculously slow this game are. if this game is a youtube video, the video runs at 0.5. if your used to a high APM games. the slow paced is just an instant turn off
-the slow paced style just made me lose brain IQ a bit and made my brain felt slow
-rock paper scissors type of combat
-map design are not "sandbox", therefore pvp multiplayer matches are not going to be as deep or randoms as AoE
-when you click "retreat", your units just mindlessly go back to your base. your units will be uncontrollable during this state until they went back to your base (this felt off to me, but might be intended due to how the game are designed to play)

so its safe to say im dissapointed about this game. i dont think this game are even fun to play for both casuals & hardcore RTS players. i think if they speed up the game a bit, make it a bit more fast it will be okay. i dont think this game is a "$60" game. without the "warhammer" on its name, this game is easily a $15 type of game. if this a $60 game, then the Total War Warhammer games series should worth more because that game has more depth and complexity than this.

[Fantastic Fwoosh]

Retreat practically similar to DoW 2, where there were ways to interrupt with skillshots or AOE, if you've not experienced it beforehand it can seem a bit novel. The idea is well timed preservation for squad combat but there's already other threads talking about anti-micro controls.

[mN]

Originally posted by Fantastic Fwoosh:

Retreat practically similar to DoW 2, where there were ways to interrupt with skillshots or AOE, if you've not experienced it beforehand it can seem a bit novel. The idea is well timed preservation for squad combat but there's already other threads talking about anti-micro controls.

having a retreat abilities in this game seems unnecessary because of how the map or the game are designed compare to DoW2. because you can just simply click your units yourself to your nearest base since the map style of this game are not "sandbox" anyway.

they might as well just change the "retreat" abilities to "increase movement speed (but you cant attack)". this would make much more sense.

[Morgengrat]

I agree with the points, especially the slow-paced combat/movement and, most Linear map design (super important to look at for RTS players) that does not allow enough of flanking and creativity of what points you get and what you raid. DoW 3 failed because of that in high amount due to this linearity.

[mN]

Originally posted by Morgengrat:

I agree with the points, especially the slow-paced combat/movement and, most Linear map design (super important to look at for RTS players) that does not allow enough of flanking and creativity of what points you get and what you raid. DoW 3 failed because of that in high amount due to this linearity.

the obvious linear map design is just one of the signs that the game will starts to fail as an RTS. and like you said, due to the linear map design, flanking would probably has no benefits at all.

[Attackmack]

One of the bigger problems imo with the gameplay is that as soon as one of your units gets locked into combat with a unit of the opposing type, all you can really do is retreat and hope they dont follow. You cant move and maneuver away from them in an attempt to catch them off guard, your stuck.

And getting stuck in combat is way easy and happens too fast.

[Morgengrat]

Originally posted by Attackmack:

One of the bigger problems imo with the gameplay is that as soon as one of your units gets locked into combat with a unit of the opposing type, all you can really do is retreat and hope they dont follow. You cant move and maneuver away from them in an attempt to catch them off guard, your stuck.

And getting stuck in combat is way easy and happens too fast.

Agree. It was the major problem of "Ancestors: Legacy" as well - as soon as units get engaged in combat, a player can only press abilities or retreat. It is fun to watch cool animations and graphics that surround it, but while I may be wrong, the RTS fans of such games needs an opportunity to micro-manage and re-position their troops, disengage, outflank, maneuver even if we get into combat. Total War is a good example of it.

[mN]

Originally posted by Attackmack:

One of the bigger problems imo with the gameplay is that as soon as one of your units gets locked into combat with a unit of the opposing type, all you can really do is retreat and hope they dont follow. You cant move and maneuver away from them in an attempt to catch them off guard, your stuck.

And getting stuck in combat is way easy and happens too fast.

Agreed. Having the retreat seems like a ♥♥♥♥♥ move rather than using it for something useful.

[mN]

Originally posted by Morgengrat:

Originally posted by Attackmack:

One of the bigger problems imo with the gameplay is that as soon as one of your units gets locked into combat with a unit of the opposing type, all you can really do is retreat and hope they dont follow. You cant move and maneuver away from them in an attempt to catch them off guard, your stuck.

And getting stuck in combat is way easy and happens too fast.

Agree. It was the major problem of "Ancestors: Legacy" as well - as soon as units get engaged in combat, a player can only press abilities or retreat. It is fun to watch cool animations and graphics that surround it, but while I may be wrong, the RTS fans of such games needs an opportunity to micro-manage and re-position their troops, disengage, outflank, maneuver even if we get into combat. Total War is a good example of it.

I saw your post "from game devs to devs". Seems like you're farming that jester award eh?

[Ghost]

i honestly cant figure out where the strategy is in this game. You cant really micro the units, once theyre in combat theyre stuck in combat. all youre doing is watching the really slow combat and pushing the ability buttons when theyre off cooldown. (i suppose a little bit of strategy in using the abilities)

Hopefully it jsut seems really basic because it is the initial chapters that are trying to teach the basics. But as an experiences RTS player it just seems to be missing a lot of depth

[Fantastic Fwoosh]

Originally posted by Ghost:

i honestly cant figure out where the strategy is in this game. You cant really micro the units, once theyre in combat theyre stuck in combat. all youre doing is watching the really slow combat and pushing the ability buttons when theyre off cooldown. (i suppose a little bit of strategy in using the abilities)

I dont know, are you supposed to be playing the game one handed? because its perfectly possible to do so (Your other hand is reaching for your wallet to make a online purchase of 100 AOS figurines and the deluxe edition)

[Overread]

Linear map design is a plague that's been infecting RTS for quite some time - even big names like Starcraft 2 have suffered (esp in their campaigns) with exceptionally linear map designs. So this isn't something unique to this game ,but something that designers seem to have been pushing into a lot of RTS games. I think its them trying to chase the whole "moba" experience; even though moba and rts are very different games and the constant attempt to make RTS into moba often ends up with a poor RTS experience.


I also fully agree, this game feels sluggish/drawn out/slow. Even though combat is fairly swift when it happens, it feels like getting there is a chore. This makes the game feel dull and especially so when you've very linear map designs so there's no real thinking or planning on where you go. You are directly limited on where you can go and how long it takes you to get there and when you get there its a pre-designed fight. So you know you're going to not only get there slowly, but also that you are expected to win the engagement.

It all feels more like you're "press F to pay respects" rather than engaging your mind; scheming and planning and acting out plans to overcome a challenge within the game.



It just feels "off" and that's a huge shame because the game is quite pretty and runs well; although on the looks front I'd also say something feels off with combat too. Whilst its swift and deadly it just feels like it lacks impact. Units come together and do their battle dance and you use a few abilities; but it just lacks some sense of impact; of urgancy or pressure or visual spectical.

It's not like when your units clashed in Dawn of War where you really felt like battle was getting tough and felt impactful. It's likely not helped by the fact that in the demo your ranked come close combat units just keep charging forward whilst firing. Whilst we get that nice switch from ranged to close combat that Dawn of War started in RTS; we lack that feeling that our ranged units are, well, ranged when they keep charging.




A few other things feel off too - like having WASD map movement and then having your attack on the f button. Which feels like they've played a topdown game before but never an RTS to know that everyone uses A for attack commands for ages and that map movement is normally done via either the arrow keys or the mouse.


A point others have raised is that this was made for console and PC and I think al ot of these things; like the slow/sluggish feeling and button layout and even the lane design of maps - that all feels like its built around a console game first with elements designed to account for the slower control and more clunky controls that RTS games inevitably have when working with a controller instead of mouse and keyboard.

Whilst its good to see developers wanting to get the game into more gamers hands; it feels like the wrong move to make "my first RTS" a console pc hybrid. Would likely have worked better making a "diablo" style game which would work smoothly with the strengths of console controls and also port really easily into pc with those same strengths. Rather than an RTS that feels like its being made for the wrong machine and suffering for it.



It's a shame because it looks good and it runs well. There's been a lot of work go into this game; a lot of skill and effort. It just don't feel "fun"

[REhorror]

Anyone who wants a better RTS/RTT, download Terminator Dark Fate - Defiance right now, it's sci-fi Syrian Warfare.

[SmokedHalibut]

I actually thought there was too much micro'ing. My heroes have spells/abilities but I have to find that guy to cast them afaik. If I'm using a group, I should be able to access all the abilities in this day and age. Or let them auto cast their spells.

It's definitely incredibly slow to play but the worst bit for me was the cutscenes. Here's an out of game cut scene, then just for good measure, here's six in game cut scenes. It's like a Lost Ark boss fight - take away my agency and I'm immediately angry.

Why would you do an in game cutscene to deliver some dialogue, that makes the game stop and makes me wait even longer to get to the next bit?

There's no base building, and it's completely linear. Go to point A. Slowly. With cut scenes. Capture it and 'build' a pointless base that does basically nothing. No watch towers, no barracks, no nothing. Enjoy turtling? Or actually doing any of the established enjoyable bits of an RTS? Well tough luck!

The units are not fun to use, they don't respond quickly, and moving around the map is slow.

Units auto-attack is weak - they stand around, in completely the wrong battle order that makes no sense, and don't react to being attacked.

I would expect them to form up sensibly with melee at the front and ranged weapons at the back.

Anyway. Would not recommend. This is a terrible game, and no-one should buy it.

Also, really didn't enjoy discovering GW renamed Orcs to Orruks. They really have retconned themselves to death (and before anyone asks, it was orcs in Warhammer Fantasy, and orks in space when their IP was still good and the Emperor was an ineffectual fop which was why it was a grim world of perilous adventure).

[REhorror]

Originally posted by SmokedHalibut:

I actually thought there was too much micro'ing. My heroes have spells/abilities but I have to find that guy to cast them afaik. If I'm using a group, I should be able to access all the abilities in this day and age. Or let them auto cast their spells.

It's definitely incredibly slow to play but the worst bit for me was the cutscenes. Here's an out of game cut scene, then just for good measure, here's six in game cut scenes. It's like a Lost Ark boss fight - take away my agency and I'm immediately angry.

Why would you do an in game cutscene to deliver some dialogue, that makes the game stop and makes me wait even longer to get to the next bit?

There's no base building, and it's completely linear. Go to point A. Slowly. With cut scenes. Capture it and 'build' a pointless base that does basically nothing. No watch towers, no barracks, no nothing. Enjoy turtling? Or actually doing any of the established enjoyable bits of an RTS? Well tough luck!

The units are not fun to use, they don't respond quickly, and moving around the map is slow.

Units auto-attack is weak - they stand around, in completely the wrong battle order that makes no sense, and don't react to being attacked.

I would expect them to form up sensibly with melee at the front and ranged weapons at the back.

Anyway. Would not recommend. This is a terrible game, and no-one should buy it.

Also, really didn't enjoy discovering GW renamed Orcs to Orruks. They really have retconned themselves to death (and before anyone asks, it was orcs in Warhammer Fantasy, and orks in space when their IP was still good and the Emperor was an ineffectual fop which was why it was a grim world of perilous adventure).

The orrkuks also don't look and act like the good ol' orks, far too skinny, not enough meat.

[Overread]

They are Kruelboyz not just orruks. Honestly they are closer to Old World Orks than the heavy armoured orruks are. Orruks are more like 40K orks in fantasy; whilst the Kruelboyz are darker, thinner, more nasty sensible orks from Old World.



As for abilities there is a group system. When you've multiple units selected they appear as icons on the bottom middle of the screen. Click the icon and it selects that unit from the group (whilst still keeping the group overall selected); which means those units abilities are now in the left hand side to select (or select via hotkey).


This is the thing there are good elements in the design like that. There's a lot of work and quality that's gone into this game to make it work. It's just not really RTS; not PC RTS and its not got that element of "fun" to it.


Also I agree about the constant pauses for small videos and text. Whilst I get that its a tutorial/early part of the game; there's a balance to those things. Warcraft 3 did really well with balancing how often you got taken out of the game for those interludes and how long it would leave you in-game between them. Too often and its just painful and annoying in any game.