Tutorial request: Manipulating model with no bones, just joints.

[Worthless]

*Noob trigger warning*

Can someone please point me to a video that explains how to manipulate a model with no bones?

I downloaded a model off of SFMLAB and when I loaded it up the rig only contained purple dots along the joints and no bones.

I tried loading another rig onto it but still no bones. Just the purple joint dots.

Revealing hidden controls does nothing.

Also, am I doing something wrong or is this perfectly normal for a model to have no bones in it's rig?

[EmperorFaiz.wav]

Those purple dots ARE the bones. Any non-SFM bone structure standard like Tf2’s or HL2’s would shows up like that. Did you bother to move or rotate them around before making this thread?

[surfer171]

Please link to the model you’ve downloaded

[Worthless]

Originally posted by EmperorFaiz.ogg:

Those purple dots ARE the bones. Any non-SFM bone structure standard like Tf2’s or HL2’s would shows up like that. Did you bother to move or rotate them around before making this thread?

By "bones" I mean the long "sticks" that are located in the calf, thigh, etc.

I did try rotating the purple dot but it rotated the joint only. So let's say there's a straight leg. When I select the knee dot and rotated it the calf and thigh stay still while the actual joint rotates.

Originally posted by surfer171:

Please link to the model you’ve downloaded

It's NSFW. I don't think I can post that here.

[EmperorFaiz.wav]

Originally posted by Worthless:

Originally posted by EmperorFaiz.ogg:

Those purple dots ARE the bones. Any non-SFM bone structure standard like Tf2’s or HL2’s would shows up like that. Did you bother to move or rotate them around before making this thread?

By "bones" I mean the long "sticks" that are located in the calf, thigh, etc.

I did try rotating the purple dot but it rotated the joint only. So let's say there's a straight leg. When I select the knee dot and rotated it the calf and thigh stay still while the actual joint rotates.

Either a badly rigged model or the actual main bones for the limbs are “hidden” behind those joint bones that you can’t select it. You have to select the bone you wanted via the animation set editor if that the case.

[Marco Skoll]

As EmperorFaiz says, its likely either badly made or you're accidentally selecting twist bones instead.

It's NSFW. I don't think I can post that here.

Even if you don't want to link directly, still please post the item ID from the URL.

We can't be very useful if we can't check out the item directly, but doing it this way, you're not actually linking to anything and will mean that we very deliberately have to copy the item ID into an SFMLab link in order to see it.

[Worthless]

Originally posted by EmperorFaiz.ogg:

Originally posted by Worthless:

By "bones" I mean the long "sticks" that are located in the calf, thigh, etc.

I did try rotating the purple dot but it rotated the joint only. So let's say there's a straight leg. When I select the knee dot and rotated it the calf and thigh stay still while the actual joint rotates.

Either a badly rigged model or the actual main bones for the limbs are “hidden” behind those joint bones that you can’t select it. You have to select the bone you wanted via the animation set editor if that the case.

Thank you. I will try that when I get home.

Originally posted by Marco Skoll:

As EmperorFaiz says, its likely either badly made or you're accidentally selecting twist bones instead.

It's NSFW. I don't think I can post that here.

Even if you don't want to link directly, still please post the item ID from the URL.

We can't be very useful if we can't check out the item directly, but doing it this way, you're not actually linking to anything and will mean that we very deliberately have to copy the item ID into an SFMLab link in order to see it.

Understood. The item number is 1017.

My apologies for that. I'm still learning the ropes around here and with SFM. I just started ALL of this 8 days ago. I literally knew nothing, absolute zero, about CGI or animation.

Thank you for your time to help me out.

[Marco Skoll]

I thought it might be - it's one of LordAardvark's models that's based on an old Skyrim body, but with these he never elected to rename the bones to something that SFM could automatically recognise and group into categories.

The way the skeleton works in the Skyrim engine is also kind of weird to SFM, so it has to be adapted. He has added "Chain" bones that do work like standard SFM arm bones, but they're hidden under the twist bones.

Using the IK rig script and then making unknown bones unselectable may make it more manageable, but any big change to its usability will require both editing it to rename bones and then sorting out a lot of things in the animationgroups file to categorise things more neatly.

(My general reaction is also "GAAAAAAH!". Generally I'd consider LordAardvark's stuff quite well made, but jumping back three years to something that isn't exactly his slickest model is a pretty harsh transition, particularly compared to my own models).

[Worthless]

Originally posted by Marco Skoll:

I thought it might be - it's one of LordAardvark's models that's based on an old Skyrim body, but with these he never elected to rename the bones to something that SFM could automatically recognise and group into categories.

The way the skeleton works in the Skyrim engine is also kind of weird to SFM, so it has to be adapted. He has added "Chain" bones that do work like standard SFM arm bones, but they're hidden under the twist bones.

Using the IK rig script and then making unknown bones unselectable may make it more manageable, but any big change to its usability will require both editing it to rename bones and then sorting out a lot of things in the animationgroups file to categorise things more neatly.

(My general reaction is also "GAAAAAAH!". Generally I'd consider LordAardvark's stuff quite well made, but jumping back three years to something that isn't exactly his slickest model is a pretty harsh transition, particularly compared to my own models).

I thank you for your answer!

Please forgive my poor understanding but, to put it in layman's terms, it's an antiquated rig and will have to be edited and parts renamed to be able to work with SFM. Am I correct?

If that's the case, then I'm at a loss. As stated before, I started only 8 days ago and I have a LOT to learn about working with CGI. I guess I'll wait for an update on SFMLAB.

Also, who are you on SFMLab? If you doni't mind me asking. I may have downloaded some of your models.

[Marco Skoll]

Originally posted by Worthless:

Please forgive my poor understanding but, to put it in layman's terms, it's an antiquated rig and will have to be edited and parts renamed to be able to work with SFM. Am I correct?

Not quite.

The model does work with SFM, it's just not particularly user friendly, because SFM does not by default recognise the bone names in order to be able to categorise them, and the "Chain" bones that allow the entire arm to be moved as you'd expect are hidden behind other bones if you try to use Ctrl-select in the viewport.

The IK rig script does do a lot to sort out the model, but it is still rather rough around the edges.

I guess I'll wait for an update on SFMLAB.

I can tell you that's not going to happen. That's a sufficiently outdated model that LordAardvark has basically redone the character from scratch on a new base figure that has better rigging.

His latest version of that character seems to be #2265, but it doesn't come with that outfit.

Also, who are you on SFMLab? If you doni't mind me asking. I may have downloaded some of your models.

While I have an account on SFMLab, I've not actually uploaded anything over there.

I mostly annoy people by making or modifying models with fancy features, then refusing to release them.

The thing is, while many of the models I work with started as SFMLab assets* and can generally go nude so I have the freedom to give the characters any wardrobe I like, a lot of the point in modifying them was to have unique characters for a personal project, and releasing them to SFMLab would just turn them into generic characters in other people's smutty videos and kind of defeat that objective.

* I actually did an example recently, comparing an original SFMLab model and my version:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1583529422
Although there's a lot of technical differences here that won't be that apparent to someone who's only new to computer animation, you may be able to see things like the more realistic shaping on the bent elbows, which requires some particularly advanced modelling to get this good.

[EmperorFaiz.wav]

Originally posted by Worthless:

Originally posted by Marco Skoll:

I thought it might be - it's one of LordAardvark's models that's based on an old Skyrim body, but with these he never elected to rename the bones to something that SFM could automatically recognise and group into categories.

The way the skeleton works in the Skyrim engine is also kind of weird to SFM, so it has to be adapted. He has added "Chain" bones that do work like standard SFM arm bones, but they're hidden under the twist bones.

Using the IK rig script and then making unknown bones unselectable may make it more manageable, but any big change to its usability will require both editing it to rename bones and then sorting out a lot of things in the animationgroups file to categorise things more neatly.

(My general reaction is also "GAAAAAAH!". Generally I'd consider LordAardvark's stuff quite well made, but jumping back three years to something that isn't exactly his slickest model is a pretty harsh transition, particularly compared to my own models).

I thank you for your answer!

Please forgive my poor understanding but, to put it in layman's terms, it's an antiquated rig and will have to be edited and parts renamed to be able to work with SFM. Am I correct?

If that's the case, then I'm at a loss. As stated before, I started only 8 days ago and I have a LOT to learn about working with CGI. I guess I'll wait for an update on SFMLAB.

Also, who are you on SFMLab? If you doni't mind me asking. I may have downloaded some of your models.

No. The model still works fine regardless the names the bones have. It's just not intuitive selecting and manipulating those bones compared with other models like TF2 classes. An IK rig script specifically made for that model is the remedy for this.

[Worthless]

Originally posted by Marco Skoll:

Originally posted by EmperorFaiz.ogg:

Thank you for your help. I learned a lot and I am now getting the hang of everything. I appreciate your time.