Anyone agrees we need ways to handle RNG better?

[Nerex7]

I'm at the point where I unlocked pretty much 99% of the Codex and all heroes. This state is pretty much the least enjoyable the game has been at since I started playing. While I progress through the difficulties which is nice, the game also grows in RNG which is another layer of difficulty that just isn't fun as there is no way to handle it or combat it.

I was originally hyped about unlocking more items and getting broader ways to build my teams but with 0 control over what is more or less likely to appear, it's nothing but a chore where I repeatedly reset because I get stuff that is all over the place.

The Surge stuff looks interesting for example but it is quite clear that it only goes anywhere if you build your entire team around it. I've tried to do that in a dozen rounds and I just don't get anywhere with it. I get the idea of playing the hand that you are dealt but no rogue-like deck or teambuilder game I played so far feels this much like I need to MacGyver with garbage.

I really enjoy the idea of your Origin tying into what you see in shops or as rewards. If you chose an origin that is more spell power centered, then those items and relics should have a slightly higher chance to appear. That would give the whole "Origin" more of its meaning.

[Code:Ao Vivia Cxv009]

From what i can tell playing so far...The game wants you to change heros around during the runs as its built for your trophys getting refunded when you remove a hero to re-allocate them to someone new. Same or origins..to swap it around to whatever your doing on the fly.

The issue with this though seems..most people really dont want to do that. The avg player in this game from what i can tell just picks their heros till they get 5 and stick with it; same with origin if its a good one and see how far they can go. My assumption from this is partially based off the fact people in forums have admitted they hate the hero selection screen and just skip it every time they want trophys for a reward; so the mechanic ( that i assume is what the dev wants to push players towards ) isnt really being utilized much.

That being said..i gather the idea is to change your heros as you find eq to match what your finding and change them like a revolving door ( hence gaining trophys back for removing to recycle the upgrades to another ). The way people seem to be playing though is more; no..i have the hero(s) i want..just give me the items that make sense for them instead..and the game just isnt designed like that.

The RNG is eh..you do have to just kinda throw together what you can to make builds work. On higher difficulties thats even more the case where you have to be more optimized and its hard to do outside of just spaming mana regain/spell power on a healer and mass defense on a tank and hoping for the best in between really. Alot of times i admit the EQ i find just doesn't go with the heros i have and that generally is what tanks the run; since im guilty as well of not really wanting to have a revolving door of heros as i go and just sticking to what i picked ( fighting the stream in this case ).

Long term some agency over your character would be nice, but im not entirely sure how to go about it exactly. Like do you just have a algo for EQ better matching your current heros only ( kinda defeating the purpose of changing heros like the dev i assume wants people to do ); or some like meta tree down the road with some things to change gameplay some. I wouldnt say anything major but like find more heros of X type in the pools or increased X stat for using no hero of Y type in your group or bench,etc..

[Hans]

A separate menu or screen where I can "banish" or "disable" certain items would be great. While I'm fine with trying to make a random batch of junk work together, there are tons of items, artifacts, and upgrades that are just garbage tier. There are also several heroes I've tried once or twice and will never pick again if at all possible.

So yeah, a banish shrine or menu would be great.

[AirSniffer]

Tbh I lost interest in the game completely after unlocking surge. Tried a few runs after that but with all the surge related stuff AND summons in the pool I find myself barely getting anything that I'd like to see. I really wanted to make a build purely centered around bleed but the game just didn't let me - And I simply cannot be bothered rerolling for items and restarting all the time to find a 3rd hero that fits the build.

I'm actually considering deleting my save file and starting over since I had way more fun without all the unlocks.

[Shimaaji]

I'm not even "thar far" into unlocking stuff and I'll certainly continue play for now since the game is really enjoyable... but overall the hero-composition-RNG feels really bad. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems that the intended way to be successful is to get synergies ... not to have an entirely different focus on every character, because then you won't get synergies with relics and your origin.
And yes: I've tried to go for hero swaps often in some runs, but the problem is: When you've already committed half an hour to a run and then three times in the row you only get heroes that do NOTHING for your chose approach that run it really hurts having left three rooms without any reward.
EDIT: One very spontaneous idea would be to let people LOOK at the hero offer and still pick from all other reward options if they choose to pick none of the heroes.

[Juniper Seed]

In my opinion, there's a lot of this in this thread:

"I set out to get a specific team or build, and I incessantly restart until I get that thing. It's discouraging!"

I feel like that is intrinsically NOT possible, and you're ruining the game for yourself if you approach the game with that attitude.

Don't get me wrong. I go into games with specific ideas, too. Either for overall composition/strategy, or having a unique idea for how to build a certain character. Still, it's impossible to always hit what you're aiming for.

I think the way to play the game is to indulge your ideas and power fantasies as best you can, but that always falls within making the most of what you're offered.

I reroll for items A LOT. That's where you have the most control, and also how you utilize campfires/pathing each stage. However, I don't get all down in the dumps when I don't get that uber perfect BiS item/character. I get creative and use the best thing offered, when it's offered.

PSA: When you get offered the 80-90% best thing for your composition, take it!

How do you guys make it through life without save-scumming and resetting? Not being sarcastic; really answer that for yourselves. How do you make it through life without being able to retroactively apply today to a thousand yesterdays?

You do the best you can. Want a bleed build? Go for it! But when your opening two characters don't offer ANY bleed characters, sure you can restart if you're pressed for time, OR you can see two you haven't tried in tandem before and try out that other composition that you've been thinking about.

Actually hit three people that perfectly synergize with bleed (or whichever strategy), and now your last two characters aren't remotely synergistic? Be thoughtful! Critical thinking, and problem solving are paramount for this game. One of the three options DOES have some way of benefiting your current setup. Bleed build? Take a high physical damage dealer. Burn/Ethereal? Take a high attack speed character with utility. Healers and off-tanks are almost always useful.

PSA #2: Surge and Summons are USEFUL in non-surge and non-summon builds

I've ran quite a few comps on Impossible that have only ONE surge character. Sometimes I run the surge items WITHOUT ANY SURGE CHARACTERS. Seriously. It's really strong. Go back and read how it all works, and what the items do. There's a lot of creative builds that you can implement into your current composition, regardless of investment to surge. Same goes for summons.

I don't have time to grab a bunch of screenshots and item names to put together a guide/example of all these things right now.

Changing out characters can be useful if you have someone that really has no place in your comp. I will say, though, that I only end up swapping out a character once every ten to fifteen runs.

Maybe I'll make some guides or youtube videos going over some of the concepts I apply to my runs.

For what it's worth, I'm not some all-knowing savant. I think I have quite the affinity for playing games of this nature, but how I play might not apply to how you play. So, be open-minded and give things a go. Remember that being limited/restricted in what you're able to do is where creativity often comes from.

Use what is offered to you! No run is perfect. On the very, very, rare occasion, you WILL get a god-run. Enjoy them! Smile and feel giddy, and laugh all the way to the ultimate victory screen. Out of the dozens and dozens of runs I've done, I've only had TWO runs that were beyond comparison to all others. Astronomical power and synergies. S+++ tier and all that. They are extremely rare in games like these. Don't play thinking that run of this nature are the normal. They are the umami, the miracle, the experiencing something in the world that no one will ever get to experience. Cherish them when they come to you, don't think you can materialize them just because you want them.

Cheers!

[Nerex7]

Originally posted by Code:Ao Vivia Cxv009:

That being said..i gather the idea is to change your heros as you find eq to match what your finding and change them like a revolving door ( hence gaining trophys back for removing to recycle the upgrades to another ). The way people seem to be playing though is more; no..i have the hero(s) i want..just give me the items that make sense for them instead..and the game just isnt designed like that.

The RNG is eh..you do have to just kinda throw together what you can to make builds work. On higher difficulties thats even more the case where you have to be more optimized and its hard to do outside of just spaming mana regain/spell power on a healer and mass defense on a tank and hoping for the best in between really. Alot of times i admit the EQ i find just doesn't go with the heros i have and that generally is what tanks the run;

I have tried to play that way as well. Simply swapping out heroes that fit the items I got but that way, I have to give up synergies between heroes or it ends up in more fishing for not only a hero that can utilize what I got but that also fits the comp. Either way, it's a lot of RNG involved that feels just out of the player's control.

It really just becomes "play 10 runs and maybe in 1 it works" without much room to grow as a player other than "just play the lottery until the ticket is alright". As I said, I get that these games are about playing with a randomized ticket but there just isn't enough room to do that in this game.

[Nerex7]

Originally posted by Juniper Seed:

In my opinion, there's a lot of this in this thread:

"I set out to get a specific team or build, and I incessantly restart until I get that thing. It's discouraging!"

I feel like that is intrinsically NOT possible, and you're ruining the game for yourself if you approach the game with that attitude.

Don't get me wrong. I go into games with specific ideas, too. Either for overall composition/strategy, or having a unique idea for how to build a certain character. Still, it's impossible to always hit what you're aiming for.

I think the way to play the game is to indulge your ideas and power fantasies as best you can, but that always falls within making the most of what you're offered.

I reroll for items A LOT. That's where you have the most control, and also how you utilize campfires/pathing each stage. However, I don't get all down in the dumps when I don't get that uber perfect BiS item/character. I get creative and use the best thing offered, when it's offered.

PSA: When you get offered the 80-90% best thing for your composition, take it!

How do you guys make it through life without save-scumming and resetting? Not being sarcastic; really answer that for yourselves. How do you make it through life without being able to retroactively apply today to a thousand yesterdays?

You do the best you can. Want a bleed build? Go for it! But when your opening two characters don't offer ANY bleed characters, sure you can restart if you're pressed for time, OR you can see two you haven't tried in tandem before and try out that other composition that you've been thinking about.

Actually hit three people that perfectly synergize with bleed (or whichever strategy), and now your last two characters aren't remotely synergistic? Be thoughtful! Critical thinking, and problem solving are paramount for this game. One of the three options DOES have some way of benefiting your current setup. Bleed build? Take a high physical damage dealer. Burn/Ethereal? Take a high attack speed character with utility. Healers and off-tanks are almost always useful.

PSA #2: Surge and Summons are USEFUL in non-surge and non-summon builds

I've ran quite a few comps on Impossible that have only ONE surge character. Sometimes I run the surge items WITHOUT ANY SURGE CHARACTERS. Seriously. It's really strong. Go back and read how it all works, and what the items do. There's a lot of creative builds that you can implement into your current composition, regardless of investment to surge. Same goes for summons.

I don't have time to grab a bunch of screenshots and item names to put together a guide/example of all these things right now.

Changing out characters can be useful if you have someone that really has no place in your comp. I will say, though, that I only end up swapping out a character once every ten to fifteen runs.

Maybe I'll make some guides or youtube videos going over some of the concepts I apply to my runs.

For what it's worth, I'm not some all-knowing savant. I think I have quite the affinity for playing games of this nature, but how I play might not apply to how you play. So, be open-minded and give things a go. Remember that being limited/restricted in what you're able to do is where creativity often comes from.

Use what is offered to you! No run is perfect. On the very, very, rare occasion, you WILL get a god-run. Enjoy them! Smile and feel giddy, and laugh all the way to the ultimate victory screen. Out of the dozens and dozens of runs I've done, I've only had TWO runs that were beyond comparison to all others. Astronomical power and synergies. S+++ tier and all that. They are extremely rare in games like these. Don't play thinking that run of this nature are the normal. They are the umami, the miracle, the experiencing something in the world that no one will ever get to experience. Cherish them when they come to you, don't think you can materialize them just because you want them.

Cheers!

It's not about wanting "god-runs" it's about the conflict of being all over the place with the things you get. Getting tank items for your tank or crit items for your crit physical damage based character is no issue at all, simply because the pool is small enough. Maybe I want attackspeed-crit but I get crit-damage-crit or physical-crit, that will work either way, they are all suitable.

But as far as the recipes go? There is just too much. I can reroll 10 times and offer up a third of my flame before I see a recipe that remotely fits the fully equipped character I have. My issue lies mainly with all the recipes. There are too many that are all over the place and there are so many bad ones that you rarely ever want to pick up.

I think the game will get "Lockdown" and "Banish" next to "Reroll" as other games have implemented it already. These will fit the game nicely and offer up more customization. I wouldn't even mind if the game got harder in return. I'd rather have a hard game that tests how well my idea of a build was rather than a game that is hard because it tests my RNG luck. If I lose, I want to lose because I made a mistake that I can fix in the next run. I want progression as a player who learns more about the game. Bad RNG is not a mistake I can fix in the next run. It is nothing I can grow from or learn from. I am at the mercy of luck and time.

[ThatGuyKhi]

I like the way Tiny Rogues handles it. There's ALOT of content as well, but our builds can influenced by what we utilize ingame.

Want a poison build? Grab and stick to poison items. Owning a bow will may quivers more common.
I could see that system in TLF where there's still the rng, but it can be slightly influenced by things such as origins and team comps.

I know there's a custom mode in the works so if that could satisfy both crowds,

[CryonicSuspension]

Because I played the demo, I went from Novice & Adept "Ascension" straight to Challenge modes. I did the novice Challenge but spent 30 hours trying to figure out how to do Adept: Boom challenge.

I'm not sure if I'm any closer to solving the puzzle. I mean... I know what team composition that I'm looking for, but finding specific items has gotten harder, to the point that I feel like I'm wading through junk items, to find what I need. Unlocking Surge items was just ridiculous there's like 30 surge items alone and what if you don't have a surge character?

I've never finished the boom challenge once in 30 hours. The most ridiculous fight that I had was a boss fight that lasted 1 minute and 30 seconds.

[ThatGuyKhi]

Dev opened a Beta Branch, there's other tweaks but this is most relevant here:

BASE Cost of Reroll Increased (Read the next section for additional information on this)
Legendary Recipe Reroll : 5 -> 6
Rare Recipe Reroll: 3 -> 4

====================
Unlocks
You now receive unlock perks! The goal of these perks is to give you more power as you unlock additional unlocks to counter the dilution of the pool of recipes.

Unlock #2: Legendary Recipe Reroll reduced by 1 Flame (6 -> 5)
Unlock #4: Rare Recipe Reroll reduced by 1 Flame (4 -> 3)
Unlock #6: Legendary Recipe Reroll reduced by 2 Flame (in total) (6 -> 4)
Unlock #7: Rare Recipe Reroll reduced by 2 Flame (in total) (4 -> 2) + Shops are bigger (3 additional recipes) (This was already in the game after you unlocked Unlock #7 but it wasn't mentioned, now it's mentioned when you unlock it like other perks)

Explanation:
During the development (pre Early Access), when the pool of recipes/heroes was increased with new archetypes such as Surge, negative Attack Speed, Mana Regen and more, there was many changes and balance to help players get over the increased amount of items.
The cost of Rare recipes was at that time 5 and got reduced down to 3. The Legendary recipe cost also went down from 7 to 5. Additionally, the superior Heirloom reward which used to only give 1 superior heirloom was changed to also give + 1 normal heirloom rewards. Also, shops got bigger (3 additional recipes) after unlocking the Surge Unlock.

Giving all these changes at once from the start of the game (no unlocks) was a mistake, since it doesn't follow the dilution of items curve that the Unlocks create. Now, you get small perks as you PROGRESS through the unlocks. As a result, as the item pool gets bigger, the reroll cost also gets reduced.
Overall, Rare and Legendary Recipe Rerolls are now more EXPENSIVE with 0 unlocks but become CHEAPER once you reach the corresponding Unlock Perks.

[CryonicSuspension]

Well that's what I was thinking... the more stuff you unlock, the cheaper it should be to find the item that you want.

[Nerex7]

Originally posted by ThatGuyKhi:

Dev opened a Beta Branch, there's other tweaks but this is most relevant here:

BASE Cost of Reroll Increased (Read the next section for additional information on this)
Legendary Recipe Reroll : 5 -> 6
Rare Recipe Reroll: 3 -> 4

====================
Unlocks
You now receive unlock perks! The goal of these perks is to give you more power as you unlock additional unlocks to counter the dilution of the pool of recipes.

Unlock #2: Legendary Recipe Reroll reduced by 1 Flame (6 -> 5)
Unlock #4: Rare Recipe Reroll reduced by 1 Flame (4 -> 3)
Unlock #6: Legendary Recipe Reroll reduced by 2 Flame (in total) (6 -> 4)
Unlock #7: Rare Recipe Reroll reduced by 2 Flame (in total) (4 -> 2) + Shops are bigger (3 additional recipes) (This was already in the game after you unlocked Unlock #7 but it wasn't mentioned, now it's mentioned when you unlock it like other perks)

Explanation:
During the development (pre Early Access), when the pool of recipes/heroes was increased with new archetypes such as Surge, negative Attack Speed, Mana Regen and more, there was many changes and balance to help players get over the increased amount of items.
The cost of Rare recipes was at that time 5 and got reduced down to 3. The Legendary recipe cost also went down from 7 to 5. Additionally, the superior Heirloom reward which used to only give 1 superior heirloom was changed to also give + 1 normal heirloom rewards. Also, shops got bigger (3 additional recipes) after unlocking the Surge Unlock.

Giving all these changes at once from the start of the game (no unlocks) was a mistake, since it doesn't follow the dilution of items curve that the Unlocks create. Now, you get small perks as you PROGRESS through the unlocks. As a result, as the item pool gets bigger, the reroll cost also gets reduced.
Overall, Rare and Legendary Recipe Rerolls are now more EXPENSIVE with 0 unlocks but become CHEAPER once you reach the corresponding Unlock Perks.

What a terrible patch. For someone with all unlocks, nothing changes. As they said, they think it was a mistake to give all of these changes at once at 0 unlocks. They just make the game look more terrible on 0 unlocks so that it won't look that bad when you are at full unlocks in comparison but there is absolutely no change to the issue. Seems like they don't understand how much the item diversity is polluting the pool of recipes.

[AirSniffer]

Originally posted by ThatGuyKhi:

Dev opened a Beta Branch, there's other tweaks but this is most relevant here:

BASE Cost of Reroll Increased (Read the next section for additional information on this)
Legendary Recipe Reroll : 5 -> 6
Rare Recipe Reroll: 3 -> 4

====================
Unlocks
You now receive unlock perks! The goal of these perks is to give you more power as you unlock additional unlocks to counter the dilution of the pool of recipes.

Unlock #2: Legendary Recipe Reroll reduced by 1 Flame (6 -> 5)
Unlock #4: Rare Recipe Reroll reduced by 1 Flame (4 -> 3)
Unlock #6: Legendary Recipe Reroll reduced by 2 Flame (in total) (6 -> 4)
Unlock #7: Rare Recipe Reroll reduced by 2 Flame (in total) (4 -> 2) + Shops are bigger (3 additional recipes) (This was already in the game after you unlocked Unlock #7 but it wasn't mentioned, now it's mentioned when you unlock it like other perks)

Explanation:
During the development (pre Early Access), when the pool of recipes/heroes was increased with new archetypes such as Surge, negative Attack Speed, Mana Regen and more, there was many changes and balance to help players get over the increased amount of items.
The cost of Rare recipes was at that time 5 and got reduced down to 3. The Legendary recipe cost also went down from 7 to 5. Additionally, the superior Heirloom reward which used to only give 1 superior heirloom was changed to also give + 1 normal heirloom rewards. Also, shops got bigger (3 additional recipes) after unlocking the Surge Unlock.

Giving all these changes at once from the start of the game (no unlocks) was a mistake, since it doesn't follow the dilution of items curve that the Unlocks create. Now, you get small perks as you PROGRESS through the unlocks. As a result, as the item pool gets bigger, the reroll cost also gets reduced.
Overall, Rare and Legendary Recipe Rerolls are now more EXPENSIVE with 0 unlocks but become CHEAPER once you reach the corresponding Unlock Perks.

I literally deleted my save file to start over with 0 unlocks since I lost interest in the game after unlocking surge. I was hoping to see an improved reward system that considers the things you already have when offering stuff or atleast an option to ban certain items/relics/heroes from your runs but I never would have expected the changes he's going to make. This surely is going to kill the game for me personally - And I'm certainly not the only one bothered by the stupid RNG. Just watch some videos on YT of people doing higher difficulties. You will notice they reroll very often due to all the trash items which don't scale enough on higher difficulties or getting offered heroes who don't fit in their build.

[CryonicSuspension]

Seems drastic to delete a save. One of the surge characters is a vampire that has 700 base spell damage.

The unlock after surge gives items that gain permanent stats on victory.