ray tracing is a marketing scam

[Stompnado]

"our new feature kills your fps so you have to buy our top cards to enjoy it "

this reminds of me the "Nvidia's physics" back when akrham city came out

seems like every once in a while Nvidia comes up with a new visual gimmick that kills your fps and pretend it's a major innovation ... this pattern is getting old

[(.)(.)]

Publicado originalmente por Myztkl©-Kev:

Publicado originalmente por (.)(.):

Thats because it was a genuine and massive leap over anything else on market at the time.

It was the same with Doom 3 and FEAR.

but real-time ray tracing isn't a massive leap to you? You've never rendered anything in 3D have you?

Not for such a barely noticeable increase in RT reflections and shadows, when previous less intensive solutions were good enough.

I play games for the interactivity, not for pretty "realtime" reflections that add nothing to the gameplay experience.

Todays ai is terrible. Who cares how accurate your puddles and windows are, when your ai cant even navigate basic paths or see amongst knee high foliage. Half these games are set in intentionally rainy towns so they have an excuse to show off the reflections. Just like most PC mods, they only look good when its pissing down with rain.

Chaos Theory has better light and shadow mechanics than todays games while looking good enough. Meanwhile PC gamers are spending $100+ on Spiderman, Horizons and TLOUs with ai that forgets the player exists once they enter knee high grass and acting as if its a win just because their pc port looks better than the console version.

Its still a ♥♥♥♥ by the number Ubisoft like open world collect-a-thon without or without the RT.

[Nerdmigo]

Publicado originalmente por Darth Shredder:

6 years from now Nvidia will come up with "shadow tracing"

what does shadow tracing do ? it makes the shadows move like in reality and it tanks your fps by 20 fps , "buy our top cards and enjoy Nvidia shadow tracing today "

Thats raytrayced global illumination (or RTX GI) and thats already in a few games.. Metro Exodus Enhanced or Minecraft RTX some game have variants of this.. This is by far the most interesting RTX feature but also the most expensive

[Nerdmigo]

Publicado originalmente por Nerdmigo:

Publicado originalmente por Darth Shredder:

6 years from now Nvidia will come up with "shadow tracing"

what does shadow tracing do ? it makes the shadows move like in reality and it tanks your fps by 20 fps , "buy our top cards and enjoy Nvidia shadow tracing today "

The feature is called raytrayced shadows and thats in already in games. The full lighting model (light and shadows) thats raytrayced global illumination (or RTX GI) and thats already in a few games.. Metro Exodus Enhanced or Minecraft RTX some game have variants of this.. This is by far the most interesting RTX feature but also the most expensive

[V I D A L]

Such ignorance.

[Myztkl©-Kev]

Publicado originalmente por (.)(.):

Publicado originalmente por Myztkl©-Kev:

but real-time ray tracing isn't a massive leap to you? You've never rendered anything in 3D have you?

Not for such a barely noticeable increase in RT reflections and shadows, when previous less intensive solutions were good enough.

Good enough for you maybe, I play every RT game I own with RT maxed, and I appreciate it. I also own a computer good enough to play basically everything maxed.

Publicado originalmente por (.)(.):

Todays ai is terrible. Who cares how accurate your puddles and windows are, when your ai cant even navigate basic paths or see amongst knee high foligae.

Chaos Theory has better light and shadow mechanics than todays games while looking good enough. Meanwhile PC gamers are spending $100+ on Spiderman, Horizons and TLOUs with ai that forgets the player exists once they enter knee high grass and acting as if its a win just because their pc port looks better than the console version.

AI has nothing to do with this conversation. Programmers program AI, games these days are far more complicated than games of the past and what you think is good AI, probably actually isn't anywhere near the level of complexity of most games these days. Spider-man on the default difficulty doesn't have bad AI at all.

[(.)(.)]

Publicado originalmente por V I D A L:

Such ignorance.

Youre just trying to justify that you spent way too much money on something that adds nothing to the actual gameplay experience.

Its the new Console VS PC warring, except PC gamers are arguing among themselves over negligible graphical upgrades.

[Myztkl©-Kev]

man, i remember when everyone complained about Mantle and how like 5 games supported it and you had to have the high-end AMD (as high-end as AMD got) cards at the time to use it, performance was great (I owned the AMD cards back then) for the few games that supported it, but people ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, but it paved the way for Vulkan, and now people ♥♥♥♥♥ when games don't support Vulkan (something every card now supports). Welcome to the future... oh wait.

[(.)(.)]

Publicado originalmente por Myztkl©-Kev:

Publicado originalmente por (.)(.):

Not for such a barely noticeable increase in RT reflections and shadows, when previous less intensive solutions were good enough.

Good enough for you maybe, I play every RT game I own with RT maxed, and I appreciate it. I also own a computer good enough to play basically everything maxed.

Publicado originalmente por (.)(.):

Todays ai is terrible. Who cares how accurate your puddles and windows are, when your ai cant even navigate basic paths or see amongst knee high foligae.

Chaos Theory has better light and shadow mechanics than todays games while looking good enough. Meanwhile PC gamers are spending $100+ on Spiderman, Horizons and TLOUs with ai that forgets the player exists once they enter knee high grass and acting as if its a win just because their pc port looks better than the console version.

AI has nothing to do with this conversation. Programmers program AI, games these days are far more complicated than games of the past and what you think is good AI, probably actually isn't anywhere near the level of complexity of most games these days. Spider-man on the default difficulty doesn't have bad AI at all.

AI has everything to do with the conversation.

Why on earth would you focus resources on hardware reflections and shadows when already your product cant even do native 4k in most retail games unless your userbase is spending money on the x80 or x80ti tier of gpus and thats without RT enabled.

When the majority of your userbase (based on steam stats) dont have that sort of money to spend, why would you prioritise that rather than focusing on the actual interactive experience and player involvement. Why are gpu and game devs are focusing on side by side screenshot comparison graphical features?

Why would you spend all those resources to appease less than the 1%?

RT on or off, its still a ♥♥♥♥ game which is stuck in the PS360 generation of Arkham Asylum/AssCreed auto-combat and QTE garbage.

[Dagg]

Publicado originalmente por (.)(.):

Publicado originalmente por V I D A L:

Such ignorance.

Youre just trying to justify that you spent way too much money on something that adds nothing to the actual gameplay experience.

Its the new Console VS PC warring, except PC gamers are arguing among themselves over negligible graphical upgrades.

I don't know kinda sounds like you are little envious to me and you are trying to convince yourself that you do not need ray tracing.

You might not like it while others might find it to be the best thing ever. You are not wrong and neither are they. Imagine that huh.

Personally I love it.

[reprodukTOOOOOOOOOOOR]

Publicado originalmente por (.)(.):

Publicado originalmente por Myztkl©-Kev:

Good enough for you maybe, I play every RT game I own with RT maxed, and I appreciate it. I also own a computer good enough to play basically everything maxed.



AI has nothing to do with this conversation. Programmers program AI, games these days are far more complicated than games of the past and what you think is good AI, probably actually isn't anywhere near the level of complexity of most games these days. Spider-man on the default difficulty doesn't have bad AI at all.

AI has everything to do with the conversation.

Why on earth would you focus resources on hardware reflections and shadows when already your product cant even do native 4k in most retail games unless your userbase is spending money on the x80 or x80ti tier of gpus and that without RT enabled

When the majority of your userbase (based on steam stats) dont have that sort of money to spend, why would you prioritise that rather than focusing on the actual interactive experience and player involvement. Why are gpu and game devs are focusing on side by side screenshot comparison graphical features.

Why would you spend all those resources to appease less than the 1%?

RT on or off, its still a ♥♥♥♥ game which is stuck in the PS360 generation of Arkham Asylum/AssCreed auto-combat and QTE garbage.

why would you develop a car, that no one can afford, when there were already horses around ?
you have such an idiotic shortsighted mindset

[Myztkl©-Kev]

Publicado originalmente por (.)(.):

When the majority of your userbase (based on steam stats) dont have that sort of money to spend, why would you prioritise that rather than focusing on the actual interactive experience and player involvement. Why are gpu and game devs are focusing on side by side screenshot comparison graphical features.

Why would you spend all those resources to appease less than the 1%?

The industry isn't going to stop moving forward because people are poor. How many LED monitors/tv's do you own? remember when only rich people had big-screen tvs? Nobody is sticking a gun to your head forcing you to buy new hardware, play the game with RT off and stop ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ about it, because clearly you aren't the target demographic.

Publicado originalmente por (.)(.):

RT on or off, its still a ♥♥♥♥ game which is stuck in the PS360 generation of Arkham Asylum/AssCreed auto-combat and QTE garbage.

That's your opinion, I'm loving this game because it brings me back to my childhood playing spider-man 2 on ps2. I think the combat is good, and the AI is plenty smart enough to kick my ass on occasion.

[><]

Publicado originalmente por Darth Shredder:

"our new feature kills your fps so you have to buy our top cards to enjoy it "

this reminds of me the "Nvidia's physics" back when akrham city came out

seems like every once in a while Nvidia comes up with a new visual gimmick that kills your fps and pretend it's a major innovation ... this pattern is getting old

I agree

[(.)(.)]

Publicado originalmente por Dagg:

Publicado originalmente por (.)(.):

Youre just trying to justify that you spent way too much money on something that adds nothing to the actual gameplay experience.

Its the new Console VS PC warring, except PC gamers are arguing among themselves over negligible graphical upgrades.

I don't know kinda sounds like you are little envious to me and you are trying to convince yourself that you do not need ray tracing.

Just because you do not like it does not mean others might find it to be the best thing ever. You are not wrong and neither are they. Imagine that huh.

Personally I love it.

But I dont need RT.

If they game plays like games of the last decade, no graphical features are going to change that.

Give me AI thats not stuck in the 90s. Keep your meh reflections that add nothing to the game.

No ai in Spiderman is noticing SM creeping up on them due to seeing the players reflection in a mirror or reflective surface. RT is tanking performance and gameplay innovation while adding nothing to the interactive experience.

Tetris is Tetris with or without RT.

FEAR 1 you could tell what weapon the AI was carrying based on their shadow, didnt need RT to achieve that.

[Arc]

Publicado originalmente por (.)(.):

Youre not running RT on a 1080ti or Titan (Not actually sure about the Titan, cant be arsed looking it up).

You absolutely can, any modern GPU can run RayTracing in fact. It's how modern CGI and 3D animated movies were done for the past two decades, using render farms of regular GPUs/CPUs.

The RT cores are basically ASICs meant to accelerate BVH pass, but you can run RT on normal GPU, it will however tank the framerate even more so as the GPU now has to perform both RayTracing and rasterization tasks at once.

The reason why the RT-branded games require the hardware is to actually have playable framerate.

Publicado originalmente por (.)(.):

Thats because it was a genuine and massive leap over anything else on market at the time.

It was the same with Doom 3 and FEAR.

GI, AO and shadows can be approximated indeed.

Reflections on the other hand, are much more of an issue to replicate.
You basically have only few options:
- Static Cubemaps, which will leave out dynamic elements
- Screen Space Reflections, which have massive drawback of being bounded by Screen Space, so anything that's not rendered is not reflected
- Combination of the 2, which is how vast majority of modern games do reflections
- Render-To-Texture (aka Picture-In-Picture) which is actually more expensive than Ray Tracing in terms of GPU and VRAM
- Ray Tracing

Publicado originalmente por (.)(.):

RT and Global Illumination based engines have done more harm to gfx than it has contributed to it. Real time Mirrors are a thing of past, of which have not been seen since Prey 1 and Doom 3 IIRC.

RTT is used in modern video games as well, Arma 3, Ready or Not and so on.

But it is massively tanking performance and requires a lot of system and video memory due to number of props and assets in modern video games. It's too expensive to bother with in most cases.

Also, keep in mind that current form of HW accelerated RayTracing is still an optimized approximation using denoiser algorithms to build final image (hence why it is so pixelated/noisy).

Publicado originalmente por (.)(.):

It ran bad because it was a genuine leap over current tech...

So is ray tracing, but it seems it does not fit your agenda.

Publicado originalmente por (.)(.):

RT and Global Illumination based engines have done more harm to gfx than it has contributed to it.

A claim based on your word.
I'd like to hear more about how GI (be it real-time or offline), which powers vast majority of modern games, is harmful to them in any way ?

Publicado originalmente por (.)(.):

- AssCreed Unity and Ryse Son of Rome are still far more impressive looking than all RT - enabled games

So is Lost in Play that I bought the other day, but now we are talking about artistic vision.
RT isn't there yet, and rasterization in gaming leads by 30 years of development, so.. yea.
It doesn't support your claims in any way.

Publicado originalmente por (.)(.):

- Hardware anti aliasing (MSAA) is nowhere to be found

Deferred Shading (or Deferred Rendering), though some games successfully implemented MSAA in DS pipeline (RDR2 if i'm not mistaken).

Multisample anti-aliasing in deferred rendering:
https://diglib.eg.org/bitstream/handle/10.2312/egs20201008/021-024.pdf

Also MSAA was accelerated by hardware, vendor locked much ?

[Myztkl©-Kev]

Publicado originalmente por (.)(.):

But I dont need RT.

If they game plays like games of the last decade, no graphical features are going to change that.

Give me AI thats not stuck in the 90s. Keep your meh reflections that add nothing to the game.

No ai in Spiderman is noticing SM creeping up on them due to seeing the players reflection in a mirror or reflective surface. RT is tanking performance and gameplay innovation while adding nothing to the interactive experience.

Tetris is Tetris with or without RT.

FEAR 1 you could tell what weapon the AI was carrying based on their shadow, didnt need RT to achieve that.

Again, AI has nothing to do with implementing ray tracing. The dudes programming the graphic features aren't the same guys writing the AI. It's also probably a hell of a lot easier to implement ray tracing (especially when you're being sponsored by Nvidia) than it is to write AI.