Patch Notes Discussion And Concerns

[Shuyin178]

I just finished reading the patch notes and want to talk about what is being done and what else needs to be done, as well if I think this is a positive or negative change overall for the game or unit. I'll be going over each change and give my thoughts as we go.
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Ammo Increases- Questionably Positive
Low ammo counts in shooters does tend to feel bad, so increasing the number of shots able to be fired is a good thing, however one thing was forgotten when doing so which is overall damage output. Whenever ammo is increased in games, it's usually a good idea to nerf to damage associated with it as increases in ammo count also doubles as increasing damage in fights. Some units did need this ammo buff, however a unit like GM Sniper did not.

There were also concerns raised by the devs regarding durability of shields for shield units due to this change, however nothing was done about that for shields. I personally feel like shields need some sort of extra benefit to compensate them being so easily broken, such as the possibility of them blocking crowd control effects which will allow tanks to be tanks.

Only 2 units gained "compensation buffs" because of the increased ammo count, but it doesn't really solve anything for those units.
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Sazabi- Questionable
Beam Shot Rifle
[↓]Damage Reduced: 29 → 26
[↑]Damage Fall off Start Distance Extended: 500 → 600
[↑]Damage Fall off End Distance Extended: 1400 → 1500

Generally this change is not the best for Sazabi. While increased range on shotguns is fine, Sazabi's already wasn't doing too ridiculous of damage overall because of it being pellet based. The range buffs are good, but they are tagged as compensation for the ammo buff other units got.

Overall I would have liked to have seen a buff to Sazabi's shield to make up for the increased damage output units will be throwing at Sazabi now.
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GM - Positive
Beam Spray Gun
[↑]Damage Fall off Start Distance Extended: 1700 → 1900
[↑]Damage Fall off End Distance Extended: 2200 → 2400
Detonator Bomb
[↑]Throwing Speed Increased: 1000 → 1100

GM did need buffs like this. Its overall range was outclassed by a lot of other units. Granted the range is partially due to the ammo re-balance of other units like Sazabi's was, but is still something GM needed to keep up. If anything GM should have 200 more HP however because 800 HP on a tank in a game that can remove shields and has units that pierce through them is not a good feel.

Overall not bad, but needed just a little more.
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Pale Rider- Positive Changes
EMP Grenade
[↑]Slow Duration Extended: 1 sec → 2 sec
[↓]Slow Effect Reduced: -50% → -35%
HADES
[↓]Activation Threshold Increased: 7800 → 9200

I feel like these changes are healthy balance changes. Pale Rider is a unit that can either be lack luster or devastating in the right hands when it came to damage, these changes do not harm Pale Rider's overall damage output, but does make make it so their ultimate will not be as dominate as it was because it was activating way to often.

The re-balance to the EMP Grenade is also a step in the right direction. 50% movement reduction feels awful in a shooter, and was making it difficult for low mobility units and flankers to fight against it. Lowering the debuff's strength while extending the duration should hopefully feel better for both against it.
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Gundam Exia- Positive But Underwhelming
GN Sword (Rush & Slash)
[↓]Cooldown Increased: 8 sec → 10 sec
[↓]Max Damage Reduced: 350 → 300

It's of no surprise to see Exia getting nerfs. Its damage and mobility are both things that are way to powerful, so its nice seeing some of both getting hit. However, this is not nearly enough to make a major difference because Exia as a whole has way too many positives over other units.
I feel Exia needed 1 of its 3 dash charges removed as Exia is the only unit in the entire game with 5 dashes. At current, Exia's mobility is way too good to the point it allows Exia to escape from situations where it makes a mistake which removes punishment from the player.
Exia's primary fire is also an issue that needs talked about. Exia is the only unit in the game that can not only keep using its primary fire continuously because it does not have an ammo count (Guntank is limited by its heat meter) but also features a long if not longer range than most other units despite Exia being classed as a melee character. This allows Exia to continuously poke at enemies at range before using its mobility to move in and take down units with minimal effort or skill expression. If anything, I feel Exia needs its primary fire range drastically reduced to not only make more sense but to give Exia mains more skill expression that the unit currently lacks as it forces Exia players to play smarter when going to target enemy units.
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Marasai- Positive
Sea Snake (Ensare)
[↓]Shot Speed Decreased: 7500 → 5000

While this ability is not the easiest thing to hit normally, and this will damage Marasai's overall impact as a result, it is something that was needed because of how oppressive this single ability can be and all of the extra applications it has for people that know about its secrets.
For instance, when you hook someone and dash you will pull the victim an extra distance, and if you turn they will be pulled to in front of where you turned which rips them even further away.
This is the only standard ability in the game that works as an absolute game changer, especially given the basic combo without using its previously mentioned secret that is nearly a 100% kill against any unit in the game. Making this harder to hit will be positive in matches and will show more skill expression for those that pull it off as now timing will be absolutely everything.
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Mahiroo- Positive But Underwhelming
Forward Flip Kick
[↑]Cooldown Reduced: 6 sec → 5 sec
Toroidal Shield with Internal Mega Particle Cannon
[↑]Cooldown Reduced: 12 sec → 10 sec
REN-DO Grendae (Rush)
[↑]After Splitting, Damage Increased: 140 → 180

It's good that Mahiroo is getting more usability with its cooldowns being lowered, the issue with Mahiroo however is its damage consistency. As stated in the patch notes, Mahrioo is doing really good in high ranked play with a lot of damage, but is suffering in low ranked and casual play. Mahrioo should have been given that extra ammo buff as well or been given a slight damage boost to its primary fire. Not much more to say beyond that.
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Zaku Melee- Positive But Needs More
Large Heat Hawk (Slash)
[↓]Effective Range Reduced: 1170 → 900
Large Heat Hawk (Rotating Slash)
[↓]Damage Reduced: 250(375) → 200(250)
*Numbers in () indicate damage amount when enraged

Overall this is not bad in terms of nerfs. When looking at the ult's damage numbers it went from 250 per hit to 200. ZM's ult slashes 13 times in total, changing the damage total for the full duration from 3250(4875) to 2600(3250) as a drop of 650(1625) damage.
This is very good because now it will give the enemy team at least a little more of a chance to survive, however I would have liked to have seen the duration and range get reduced more so than the damage numbers. Right now ZM's ult has way too long of a range when compared to every other close range ultimate (such as Zaku Range and Asshimar's charge ults) as it both has a long distance it can cover but also has a wide AOE making it very easy to hit units as opposed to being able to be dodged. That said, it is at least possible to stun or kill ZM to stop the ultimate early, so it does at least feature some form of counterplay vs someone that doesn't panic when it gets used. I feel it needed its total slashes reduced from 13 to maybe 10 instead.

The range of the primary fire being reduced was absolutely needed as it was a melee character fighting at ranged. This was the type of nerf I made mention of Exia needing earlier as they both are melee units that were fighting poke wars at long distance.
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What Was Missing-
Guntank buffs:
Guntank is a character that can pop off once in awhile, but as a straight up fighter its primary fire does need a little love. Nothing major, just 5 more points of damage or so for both spread fire and focused fire modes for its primary fire. Possibly even a slightly larger detonation AOE for its Cannon.

Barbatos:
Honestly speaking, I don't think Barbatos needed either buffs or nerfs. Barbatos, while frustrating at times, is a character where if it misses its combo it's likely going to die, unlike Exia. As a Barbatos player you need proper positioning and timing because unlike Exia and Zaku Melee, Barbatos has no ranged attack whatsoever. You have to jump onto enemy units and die trying or you are doing absolutely nothing because you can't even contribute to the poke wars in any way.
If anything needed fixed, it would be hit registration on its Mace Smash. There are times where it either does not hit when it should have, or it hits an enemy it never should have. There have been times I've used it against someone directly in front of me and it not hit them, while there have also been times I've long dodged out of the way and still got hit (have seen this happen to several other people as well).
So if anything that needs figured out to improve consistency as both the attacker and target.

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That's about it. Out of the bug fixes it looks like hit registration will be mostly fixed up, which was good because I was one of the players that noticed me hitting players (hit markers even popping) but damage not being delt from time to time.

Let me know your thoughts on the balance changes and what you feel should have been done differently FROM A CONSTRUCTIVE POINT OF VIEW. Please don't comment with troll messages or butt-hurt comments.

[Onimaho]

Nerfing marasai's hook is fine, no issue with that...but then it should have received a buff else where to compensate. Most players are in agreement that the hook is what makes/breaks the character, when marasai is on cooldown it is garbage tier.

[Shuyin178]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Onimaho:

Nerfing marasai's hook is fine, no issue with that...but then it should have received a buff else where to compensate. Most players are in agreement that the hook is what makes/breaks the character, when marasai is on cooldown it is garbage tier.

It's just the nature of hook characters honestly. It's the same for Roadhog in Overwatch and Blitzcrank in League of Legends. Marasai's combo when the hook lands is already an almost 100% kill on whoever is the victim, so giving more elsewhere outside of maybe increasing primary fire range at most would only cause more problems for him later.

[[ARA] Panzergott]

Mostly good except 2 big issues.

1. GM Sniper got BUFFED. Really he got unchanged is the problem here. His buff just coincides with the ammo increase. This uber broken Suit will continue to ruin every game its in.

2. Shields got NERFED. They even said so in the notes. More ammo = easier to break shields. GM buffs I think will actually be mostly positive but Sazabi on the other hand? Flat nerf. The only way to win as him was to rush down and kill quick because of his massive hit box and comparatively low Shield HP.

Keep in mind GM has 100 less hp then Sazabi while being like 1/4th his size. Like OP I think Sazabi needs more shield HP.

[Gothicc Feeldoe]

To be honest the mobility isn't the issue with Exia (All you have to do is get used to tracking his movement). If anything they should have nerfed the damage in his ult and nerfed the damage with his basic attack. The current nerfs won't really effect his damage out put since most of his damage comes from landing those basic shot crits. The point to getting a dash removed isn't needed. Gun tank cancels out his whole kit with ease. Every game seems to have a gun tank.

(And Technically the difference between zaku and exia is that exia all of his abilities are melee abilites while zaku abilities are a mix of range and closing in the gap).

The changes to zaku melee are nice should really lower his overall damage output I agree with all your points on that one. Honestly shield/shield skills should get a slight buff either more armor or as you said some type of resistance to crowd control. They do kind of seem kinda useless with the way the game is right now.

Overall you made some pretty good points. This patch is pretty solid patch for the game hopefully they can follow it up well and the patch doesn't break the game eve more lol.

[Onimaho]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Shuyin178:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Onimaho:

Nerfing marasai's hook is fine, no issue with that...but then it should have received a buff else where to compensate. Most players are in agreement that the hook is what makes/breaks the character, when marasai is on cooldown it is garbage tier.

It's just the nature of hook characters honestly. It's the same for Roadhog in Overwatch and Blitzcrank in League of Legends. Marasai's combo when the hook lands is already an almost 100% kill on whoever is the victim, so giving more elsewhere outside of maybe increasing primary fire range at most would only cause more problems for him later.

Disagree, roadhog has a fat HP pool, still maintains the ability to dish out lots of damage, and also has the ability to heal itself. The hook is a compliment to the kit, not the purpose of it.

Marasai is...well none of that. Its hook is the whole purpose of the kit. Take it away and as I mentioned marasai is trash.

[Whirblewind]

Wow I actually agree with almost all of this. Surprised how consistent this is with my assessment.

On the topic of Mahiroo, who I've been spending a lot of time with out of spite, I'd like to spend some time talking, if for no other reason than the general lack of meaningful conversation on the suit.

Grenades
I agree with you on the ammo problem, but also sympathize with their dilemma. Right now, it's a consistency problem rather than a potential problem. I'm either below average damage by game's end or vastly higher than everyone else.

Adding more grenades might fix a problem of "feel" but has serious risk of empowering skilled players in a compounding way. Right now, a Mahiroo needs to land his kick to kill an 800 health unit assuming all grenades make direct contact. I think adding just one grenade might be okay. It would allow a skilled player to kill without a kick, improve gunplay feel for lower skill players and not hugely shift Mahiroo's already crazy ability to wipe a clumped party.

Flipkick
I think you can appreciate the delicacy I say something like this in a way most posters won't: I think reducing kick's cooldown might be a mistake. I'd be okay with being wrong on this one, it's not a hill to die on, but I think it's a legitimate concern. Right now, both as an observation of other players but also my own play, it feels like my ability to maneuver is already immense. When I'm on fire, my ability to reposition or flee is already better than anyone except ZIIR and with the Marasai nerf he will have the most consistent stun in the game.

A high skill player, which I do not count myself but would like to think I'm getting pretty close, can already be incredibly annoying to pin down. A Mahiroo that knows map angles can produce immense area control while remaining relatively safe. He becomes a man in the walls in a really creepy way. Increasing his ability to position and flee could have bad "gamefeel" consequences that aren't easy to predict even from the best players in the game. This change will be one to watch closely.

[Raptor]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Onimaho:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Shuyin178:

It's just the nature of hook characters honestly. It's the same for Roadhog in Overwatch and Blitzcrank in League of Legends. Marasai's combo when the hook lands is already an almost 100% kill on whoever is the victim, so giving more elsewhere outside of maybe increasing primary fire range at most would only cause more problems for him later.

Disagree, roadhog has a fat HP pool, still maintains the ability to dish out lots of damage, and also has the ability to heal itself. The hook is a compliment to the kit, not the purpose of it.

Marasai is...well none of that. Its hook is the whole purpose of the kit. Take it away and as I mentioned marasai is trash.

Yeah Marasai just completely locks someone out of playing until they are dead if you hit the hook. It used to be the same for hog before they changed it but marasai doesn't fit a tank role like hog does.

[Runehearth]

my only concern is using chat and getting instantly disconnected

[Shuyin178]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Whirblewind:

Wow I actually agree with almost all of this. Surprised how consistent this is with my assessment.

On the topic of Mahiroo, who I've been spending a lot of time with out of spite, I'd like to spend some time talking, if for no other reason than the general lack of meaningful conversation on the suit.

Grenades
I agree with you on the ammo problem, but also sympathize with their dilemma. Right now, it's a consistency problem rather than a potential problem. I'm either below average damage by game's end or vastly higher than everyone else.

Adding more grenades might fix a problem of "feel" but has serious risk of empowering skilled players in a compounding way. Right now, a Mahiroo needs to land his kick to kill an 800 health unit assuming all grenades make direct contact. I think adding just one grenade might be okay. It would allow a skilled player to kill without a kick, improve gunplay feel for lower skill players and not hugely shift Mahiroo's already crazy ability to wipe a clumped party.

Flipkick
I think you can appreciate the delicacy I say something like this in a way most posters won't: I think reducing kick's cooldown might be a mistake. I'd be okay with being wrong on this one, it's not a hill to die on, but I think it's a legitimate concern. Right now, both as an observation of other players but also my own play, it feels like my ability to maneuver is already immense. When I'm on fire, my ability to reposition or flee is already better than anyone except ZIIR and with the Marasai nerf he will have the most consistent stun in the game.

A high skill player, which I do not count myself but would like to think I'm getting pretty close, can already be incredibly annoying to pin down. A Mahiroo that knows map angles can produce immense area control while remaining relatively safe. He becomes a man in the walls in a really creepy way. Increasing his ability to position and flee could have bad "gamefeel" consequences that aren't easy to predict even from the best players in the game. This change will be one to watch closely.

I do agree with your points. Mahiroo is going to be one of those balance nightmare characters where only high level play can use it correctly as the game's only true artillery unit, just like Ryze in League of Legends was. Ryze had a very low win rate for a long time (like 38-40%) in casual and mid to lower ranked, but was constantly used in pro play regardless because of how his skill ceiling was overall that made him a monster in the hands of someone that knew how to use him.

[Toby Bentobox]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Onimaho:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Shuyin178:

It's just the nature of hook characters honestly. It's the same for Roadhog in Overwatch and Blitzcrank in League of Legends. Marasai's combo when the hook lands is already an almost 100% kill on whoever is the victim, so giving more elsewhere outside of maybe increasing primary fire range at most would only cause more problems for him later.

Disagree, roadhog has a fat HP pool, still maintains the ability to dish out lots of damage, and also has the ability to heal itself.

Marasai is...well none of that.

Agreed, if the hook was even a bit more consistent then I could maybe agree with the nerf, but it isn't. Marusai only gets easy shots in with hook if the team isn't paying attention to where he's at, and that's their B. Otherwise they do the shimmy boogie-woogie bunny-hop and it can pretty much be RNG if he gets the hit. Typical assassin.

That's not the problem though, problem is that the hooked will snag on ANYTHING and is a bit too easily influenced by indirect factors, unlike Roadhogs hook which would pull around such issues and will deliver the hooked, in front, around 99 % of the time, Marusai often finds his hook-ee stopped my a mere corner of geometry that's sometimes not even distinct, even momentum or slopes in a clean line of sight can make it so the victim will pull BESIDE Marusai rather than in front, making that interaction awkward.

I can get that being the single hooked guy is annoying if you're unaware but there are others with more efficacy in doing the same job currently. A 'silent' barbados will kill at least one before getting away, a good flanking zaku 2 will go BRR and kill as many as his health pool allows before smoking out. So not only do they have the chance of getting more than one kill per attempt, they can escape.

Marusai misses? Well he has likely a one on one on his hands, which to be fair, is more than capable of winning. On the other hand, if another joins the hunt (and good teams will have communication to ensure that) then that Marusai is likely gonna die despite the bigger health pool unless he has a lot of cover on his escape route.

RIght now with these changes on course, I see no reason not to switch to his closest in terms of mechanics, Gundam. He has more damage per shot, same amount of dash, a good escape on his shield (which effectively gives him an extra 1000HP to deal with rather than the 200HP Marusai has over him in base health), and whilst his mace doesn't stun as hard as a hook, it gets rid of shields, has a wider hitbox, and if it misses it still does splash damage and knockback. Hell even his Ult has more utility, yeah it can be shot to death but a good Gundam will make it go off by putting it behind cover or in an adjacent room. Making it a much better point clear ult than a linear stun that has no guarantee of kill from full health.

[YourFreeUseHairbrush]

They definitely missed some toxic ass ♥♥♥♥. Like instant non reactable CC's like Zaku Ranged ult and Assihmars ult should've gotten nerfed. And yea Exia's (like Zaku melee) primary fire should have less effective range than medium range characters. Sniper getting an extra shot when it already one shots from an uninteractive distance feels like a slap to the face. Oh and getting hooked around corners is not fixed too.

[Shuyin178]

Oprindeligt skrevet af LightFM:

They definitely missed some toxic ass ♥♥♥♥. Like instant non reactable CC's like Zaku Ranged ult and Assihmars ult should've gotten nerfed. And yea Exia's (like Zaku melee) primary fire should have less effective range than medium range characters. Sniper getting an extra shot when it already one shots from an uninteractive distance feels like a slap to the face. Oh and getting hooked around corners is not fixed too.

You getting hooked around corners might be what I mentioned earlier for Marasai being able to dash and spin to pull enemies further, as this could also pull players around walls.
The game suffers from some kind of latency issue though, such as delayed damage vs opponents because I've both killed and have been killed through walls due to damage registering later than it should have.

[Zakon]

Barbatos just needs a total rework, not buffs or nerfs.

Barbatos is currently an annoying one-trick pony. It goes in, tries to get its combo off, and then it runs away on either a success or a failure. It's just tanky enough that it's hard to punish it, so you have to put up with it diving in and trying to one-shot someone every few seconds.

Also if you're a tank like the Sazabi, it's even more obnoxious because Barbatos doesn't care about your shield, but your larger body and single dash make you easy to pick off, which severely limits your ability to control space any time a Barbatos is in play. It's actually kind of a problem that of the 3 tanks in the game, the other two (Zaku II Melee and Marasai) are both paywall and are both good swaps if the enemy team has a good Barbatos. If you're F2P you're just going to be stuck getting bullied by the Barbatos if you need to fill for the tank role.

The Zaku II Ranged is what a flanker should look like. It's able to get in and out safely, but if it makes a mistake it dies easily. It can quickly kill people but they have a chance to respond.

[Onimaho]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Zakon:

It's actually kind of a problem that of the 3 tanks in the game, the other two (Zaku II Melee and Marasai)

You were making a good post, until you said marasai is a tank.

LMAO

[Zakon]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Onimaho:

You were making a good post, until you said marasai is a tank.

LMAO

It is, as much as anything is a tank in this game. This isn't Overwatch where you can absorb huge amounts of enemy fire, but it's sturdier than other suits and it controls space.

The game's tanks are the Sazabi, DOM Trooper, Zaku II Melee, and Marasai. You want at least 1 of them on any team, probably 2. (I forgot about the DOM Trooper when I was writing that earlier post or I would have said "of the game's 4 tanks")

The roles are a lot fuzzier in this game, likely by design, and that's what I like about it compared to Overwatch. But just because it's less clear-cut doesn't mean the roles don't exist. Like the GM is a support even though its only heal is on a cooldown.