cant use 2 pairs?

[Misaky]

The game seems great.
But just now I got very confused. I tried to use 2 pairs and the game didin't let me, it gave the message "You cannot attack with a 2 pair"
I thought in this game we could use the same moves as in poker?

[Saltzpyre]

You absolutely can throw a pair. Are you referring to throwing two pairs as in two different two card pairs?

[Misaky]

Yes. For example in poker if you have the following cards: K, 2, 2, 5, 5.
You can play 2,2,5,5 to get a double pair. But in this game, that doesn't seem to be allowed.

[Flantor]

Haven't played the demo yet but I watched a let's play video. The tutorial specifically says "You can throw singles, pairs, or any valid poker hand." 2,2,5,5, is NOT a valid poker hand. K,2,2,5,5 is indeed a valid poker hand, so it should allow you to play the full 5-card hand, and (assuming you beat your opponent's hand) would deal 5 damage to them because you used 5 cards. Haven't tested it myself yet though, I am about to try the game!

[Flantor]

Never mind. My previous comment was wrong, you can't play 5-card poker hands. I don't really understand what they mean when they say "You can throw singles, pairs, or any valid poker hand". Maybe they mean you can play "Singles, pairs, straights, full house, and flushes?" Clearly 2-pair isn't allowed, nor is High card, haven't seen yet if trips or quads or anything else is allowed. Feels disappointing for a poker game to not allow all the poker hands.

[Entrox Licher]

I agree the wording is not at all clear on the hands and card combinations. For clarity, I've found all combos are possible except for the two pair. This is likely due to game balance, since a 4 card combo would cause 4 damage, and yet it is more than twice as likely to get a 2 pair than it is to get a 3 of a kind for example.

In fact there are a lot of interesting probabilities than are at play in the game. In a normal 5 card hand of poker, you have roughly 50% chance to get just a high card, and roughly 42% to get a one pair. From there the odds drop drastically, with a 2 pair being close to 5%, a 3 of a kind being close to 2%, and everything else being well under 1%. This means under standard conditions, most hands will be a high card or 1 pair (which lines up with my play experience).

However, there are a lot of fun twists the game throws into the standard formula. Setting aside some of the wilder/harder to calculate ones (like card range), there are some fundamental changes, like hand size, that drastically alter the odds. Since your offense and defense stats dictate the opponent's hand size, and hand size drastically alters the probability, that heavily affects your chance of beating your opponent. Furthermore, winning a hand is also not done in the traditional fashion, because you must match the number of cards in an opposing hand. That means a 3 of a kind on the offense will beat a straight, which adds all kinds of fun strategic depth.

For me, it is just enough like poker that I have something to go off of, but has enough interesting twists that it is a unique strategic experience.

TL;DR, Yes the mechanics are different (and oftentimes not clearly explained, but it is a demo to be fair), sometimes for game balance, sometimes for strategic depth.

[TheOneWaaagh]

Just wanted to mention that they updated the demo which now has a help screen in the options which explains how the combat works.

[Flantor]

Originally posted by Entrox Licher:

I agree the wording is not at all clear on the hands and card combinations. For clarity, I've found all combos are possible except for the two pair. This is likely due to game balance, since a 4 card combo would cause 4 damage, and yet it is more than twice as likely to get a 2 pair than it is to get a 3 of a kind for example.

I think this balance could be solve with a simple change: Make each increasingly rare hand deal 1 more damage, not strictly based on number of cards. So 1 card high = 1 damage. One pair = 2 damage. Two pair = 3 damage. trips = 4 damage, etc, all the way up to Royal Flush = Insta kill. Then just have a reference manual in-game reminding players what hands deal what damage.

I also like the idea of spicing up the 1-card and one-pair plays by allowing full 5-card hands that deal 5 damage. BUT, you opponent will get a full 5-card hand (at the minimum, maybe more than 5 depending on their stats! ) regardless of their defense, and they also get the 5 damage if they win the hand. Makes it a big "all-in" gamble type of play, especially with something like an Ace or King high. If you do this, then the best 5-card poker hand wins. As you say, about 50% of the time your opponent could easily draw a one-pair or better and whomp you with 5 damage if you get too greedy.

Just an idea! Might radically throw off the game balance but it sounds fun and is more in line with the "poker" aspect of the game. Overall I think this demo is super cool and look forward to see where the game goes from here!

[Misaky]

Originally posted by Flantor:

I think this balance could be solve with a simple change: Make each increasingly rare hand deal 1 more damage, not strictly based on number of cards. So 1 card high = 1 damage. One pair = 2 damage. Two pair = 3 damage. trips = 4 damage, etc, all the way up to Royal Flush = Insta kill. Then just have a reference manual in-game reminding players what hands deal what damage.

I agree with this. It would make the damage make more sense, and would also allow all poker combinations.

Currently a full house does more damage then a four of a kind. But a four of a kind is rarer.

[Misguided]

The other thing I think is needed is that the defense should have the number of attacking cards as a base value, modified by offense and defense. A hand should never win by default because the opponent doesn’t have enough cards to respond in kind.

That would make a hand of 2-pair (if implemented) quite risky to play, which I like.

[Antonius Selnar]

I was wondering about the 2 pair situation myself. I guess it sort of makes sense from the balance perspective. Since you can't use the two pair, it could guarantee two attacks or one attack and one defend. I didn't realize the five card hands dealt more damage than the four of a kind which I do agree seems a bit wrong. I've had a couple of flushes and a four of a kind so far in the demo and I'm currently at the third area with the warrior. I was wondering if the straight flush and royal straight flush are in the game since their help section doesn't have them listed. Personally, I would want some sort of additional damage\defense if something on the really rare side like 4 of a kind and above is used to signify the strength in poker.