If WoW had ARC's style of PvPvE, it'd collapse

[Bart]

This is an overview of one of the most successful inceptions in gaming history that the game's still alive even today; perhaps in a zombified state in its retail version, but that's a different discussion.

Back during the first few years of this game being open, leveling into raids was the design of the content. One time character leveling into end-game gear set building. PvP Battlegrounds were added as a solution to people wanting more PvP.

ARC Raiders is a game that has had a higher budget, a larger team, and a wider schedule. Yet, it's struggling due to core design issues that few won't acknowledge is a problem until you start applying it elsewhere.

Imagine a run to Molten Core from outside Blackrock Mountain. On PvE servers, it's not an issue. On PvP, good luck. But what if all servers were permanently PvP-on with total loss on death, including gear?

There's a reason nobody does PvP in WoW Hardcore, because the setup would allow one higher level player will all the gear to mow over everyone else. And if it ever did get to endgame it'd be a matter of going up against a REAL formed cartel of players who only exist to train someone down and collect. (see the Dune game where this supposedly happened) Undoubtedly, these players would be sending in their cheapest characters that have no gear in order to bloody or even down a target.

Players would simply stop raiding and inevitably stop playing. The game would get panned for being another place to exploit and the subscriptions would bottom out to the point where we don't get to see more content.

Keeping PvP out of PvE-related areas is key to keeping a game functional so everyone is enjoying it. What you've done is you've taken the actual raid-minded raiders and you've forced them into a forever-slog through the pathway to Molten Core.

Trials, Quests, achievements, etc. All of those fall away because you enabled rats to disrupt all of those attempts.

In WoW: if you didn't like open-world PvP the solution was simple, move to a PvE server or become so absurdly overpowered that you can't be messed with. ARC steals that latter solution being done naturally, leaving only cheating to enforce that.

It isn't that big a mystery why the game is in the hole it's in. Even a single-player game like Cyberpunk 2077 had to redo many of their systems after realizing how brutally unfun they were towards the player.

[RdRStar]

Play wow if you want wow.

This game was not designed to be anything like a pve mmo.

[Grimmsch]

The core team sizes are almost identical. Adjusted to inflation the initial development budget of WoW was higher. Not that any of this matters.

[Bart]

Originally posted by RdRStar:

Play wow if you want wow.

This game was not designed to be anything like a pve mmo.

It wasn't designed to be anything but a cluster is my point. The whole analogy was so you can see what would happen if you introduced the broken mechanics that ARC has anywhere else and the follow-up consequences.

ARC Raiders is a game that has had a higher budget, a larger team, and a wider schedule. Yet, it's struggling due to core design issues that few won't acknowledge is a problem until you start applying it elsewhere.

Next time read through the post and save your Technickallys, please.

[Xkiller]

In the beginning Blizzard only offered PvP servers. This is because they knew the product they was selling and NO GAME COMPANY back then used marketing scam tactics to poach every market in order to get more sales. They simply created the game, labeled it, marketed it honestly, and made money. Extraction shooters started using the marketing tactic "PvPvE" because it is a niche market that dies super fast. It dies fast due to design and people behaviors. Therefore, in order to survive the sales cycle they needed to con as many people into buying it as possible. Tarkov eventually did the right thing and created a separate PvE mode. Making the marketing less predatory. It was a solid choice considering the PvE playerbase makes up around 50% of the population.

All that said, Blizzard tried to implement an open-world PvP system to motivate people to get involved. But at the end of the day you cannot and will not change the psychosis behind what makes a person a PvP player or a PvE player. They clash. Therefore, Blizzard about nine months in started offering PvE only servers for those who loved the content and raiding. Which now, raiding is the more dominate format and one of the only reasons people still stick around and play it. They also started offering Battlegrounds late in the second year for those who wanted focused PvP and consistent PvP.

Therefore, just remember when you hear brainwashed people say that ARC Raiders is a PvPvE game, they are simply repeating what the developers have convinced them to say. Because, ARC Raiders is a PvP game. The "PvE" in the game is simply scenery. A distraction. An enhancement to the PvP. Not its own isolated gameplay. It is gameplay that is overshadowed by PvP. Interrupted by PvP. Subjugated to PvP. NOT integrated with PvP. It is not possible to integrate PvP and PvE no more than it is possible to have water and fire merged. This is a human psychosis fact, a common sense fact, a scientific fact, and a design fact that ARC Raider's is a PvP game.

Though it is kind of insane how easy it is to indoctrinate a bunch of simpletons into believing whatever you want them to believe. Embark loves when people just fall right into their hands and melt. These same people will go to Disney world and believe the immersion, the magic, is REAL. While others who aren't so easily indoctrinated understand it is just a façade. That Aladdin ISN'T real, there is no Han Solo, and Snow White is a character in a story. They understand these are the reasons you go to "escape reality" not "become a new reality". The non-indoctrinated KNOW that Disney is simply a place where 2000 behind the scenes systems are maintained by park personnel. That Disney is nothing more than a place of employment with mechanical parts, people, and profit systems. The non-indoctrinated KNOW that there are PvP games and PvE games and that those are separate games for separate people and nothing you can tell them will lead them to believe those two opposing things can be implemented together. They live and acknowledge what everyone understands to be "reality".

Unfortunately, we will need to continue to help our poor indoctrinated friends who sound off "PvPvE" every time you pull their string or even when you DON'T pull their string. It is time for them to wake up from their delusion instead of walking around muttering "PvPvE" to everyone and everything. Like a catchall response that solves all that is seen and unseen. This will be a larger challenge than expected considering they are part of a cult that worships Embark, their God. Whom, from their perspective and belief system, is an "all-knowing entity" which created the great uniting of two of the largest markets that live in peace and harmony. It just "works". You can ask all 12k of their.... wait sorry.. 9k of.. one second .. sorry getting a news update stand by... sorry.. the official number is 4.3k... um nvm. Forget it. Let's just say you can ask whoever is left about how great it is to be part of the only group in the world who believes PvPvE is a real thing. Hail Embark!

[{FU}TheForgeryTTV]

Both games are already collapsing, what are you on?

[Bonus Ducks]

World of Warcraft released with open world PVP, and progressively added more PVP content over time.

[sushihead]

if WoW was a PvPvE extraction game you might have a point.

[Bart]

Originally posted by Oi Ooie:

World of Warcraft released with open world PVP, and progressively added more PVP content over time.

Yes, it did. The devs patched in Battlegrounds some time way later, I think. But then they added the title ladder so you could have a reason for PvP'ing like crazy. ARC is missing that heavily.

Originally posted by {FU}TheForgeryTTV:

Both games are already collapsing, what are you on?

If it takes a game 20 years to die versus 20 weeks, which is the faster timeline? What are YOU on?

[Grimmsch]

Originally posted by Oi Ooie:

World of Warcraft released with open world PVP, and progressively added more PVP content over time.

Open world PvP in Stranglethorne Vale was the best time. Well week-long Arathis were great too.

[Bonus Ducks]

Originally posted by Bart:

Originally posted by Oi Ooie:

World of Warcraft released with open world PVP, and progressively added more PVP content over time.

Yes, it did. The devs patched in Battlegrounds some time way later, I think. But then they added the title ladder so you could have a reason for PvP'ing like crazy. ARC is missing that heavily.

Originally posted by {FU}TheForgeryTTV:

Both games are already collapsing, what are you on?

If it takes a game 20 years to die versus 20 weeks, which is the faster timeline? What are YOU on?

Very different games with very different gameplay loops. Could Arc use some new mechanics? Sure, and I am sure they are working on something. But adding a ranking ladder would probably disincentivize more people than incentivize for PVP, considering there is already a huge incentive of PVPing, being to steal loot from others, something that wasn't present in World of Warcraft PvP.

Also neither game is dying, both games make millions per month. Also comparing a game released when it was the literal only option for what it provides to a game where there is effectively an infinite supply of other options, is... an argument I suppose...

[Bart]

Originally posted by Oi Ooie:

Originally posted by Bart:

Yes, it did. The devs patched in Battlegrounds some time way later, I think. But then they added the title ladder so you could have a reason for PvP'ing like crazy. ARC is missing that heavily.


If it takes a game 20 years to die versus 20 weeks, which is the faster timeline? What are YOU on?

Very different games with very different gameplay loops. Could Arc use some new mechanics? Sure, and I am sure they are working on something. But adding a ranking ladder would probably disincentivize more people than incentivize for PVP, considering there is already a huge incentive of PVPing, being to steal loot from others, something that wasn't present in World of Warcraft PvP.

Also neither game is dying, both games make millions per month. Also comparing a game released when it was the literal only option for what it provides to a game where there is effectively an infinite supply of other options, is... an argument I suppose...

People keep saying 'dead' in the sense that it's not going to return to popularity. Any company can make a game that generates money, even good money. But is it going to be of any real mainstream importance anymore? Probably not.
Death in this case would be a status of loss without potential for recovery. WoW might be able to pull that off. For ARC it's a way taller order. Everything they made now they made factors more of back then. Even this week's peak was the regular floor two months ago.

And there's not a piece of evidence given that a ladder would discourage PvP. If it really is all about victimizing unsuspecting players as the 'proper game loop cycle', then don't be shocked this is in the state it's in now and what it will be in by October. I'm pretty confident the studio will be making less millions by then.

[qurtfurrens]

The most beautiful sets in WoW have always been the PvP ones.

[Bart]

Originally posted by qurtfurrens:

The most beautiful sets in WoW have always been the PvP ones.

And people got them by proving they understood the game mechanics better than others. If they were caught 'win-trading' Blizzard would ban them.

Also, to my bad faith homies out there trying to get me to read your ad homs, here's to you: https://i.imgur.com/JkgXRDq.png

[qurtfurrens]

PvE players in Ark remind me of the tavern regulars in Elwynn Forest—the very same ones from *Trials*.

[Bart]

Originally posted by qurtfurrens:

PvE players in Ark remind me of the tavern regulars in Elwynn Forest—the very same ones from *Trials*.

oof. lol. I wouldn't doubt a rat or two has indulged in what you're describing.