Virus decks seem...weird

[Don't You Rage Quit on Me]

A couple of thoughts on the Virus characters. First, this should NOT be the first character that new players are forced to use. The virus decks require quite a bit of game knowledge to build a good deck. I'm sure a lot of new players are pretty put off by trying to figure out how virus decks work and which cards to pick. Bad design choice. The first character you play with should absolutely be one of the "counter" heroes because they are much easier to understand for a new player.

Secondly, virus decks seem a bit of even for experienced players. I've built some nasty powerful virus decks, but I've almost never hit 10 on the meter, let alone 15. I can't imagine having 15 virus in your deck. Even with only having 7-8 you can often draw hands that are almost all viruses which can be nearly certain death on floor 3. But 15? How is a deck like that even viable? Is it just something that people hit "once in a great while" or are there reliable builds out there that can consistently hit 15 virus? And I don't mean a build where "yeah, I hit 15 virus once, get gud". I mean decks that reliably hit 15 virus several times a run (and can actually finish the game). If this is super rare, why is it even in the game?

Anyway, I like virus, it's probably the strongest decks I've made so far, but some of it feels off. It's certainly better than I'm finding the ammo heroes, those trick ammo cards tend to be junk.

[Game Familiar]

if you are thinking in terms of "builds" you put yourself too much at the mercy of card drafts, yes there are decks that consistently get that high, my last Jokan runs ended being 20-30 virus at the end stage against the bosses, surprisingly I've had a few Issandre runs that reach 15 quite often which is not the usual way I go.

Agica was the original faction available during early access, newer players there thought the counter mechanic was too complicated. TBF tainted ones got a nerf to their basic defense and Sora also got a changed in here initial Onslaoughts that made her a lot tougher to play.

[Don't You Rage Quit on Me]

I would love to see a deck that can manage that much virus. From the cards I've seen, it would be BARELY possible if you get the perfect cards, and the payoff isn't worth the effort. The level 15 card seems weak for that much effort. Regardless, I'd like to see a video of a build that consistently hits 15+ virus over the course of the run (and makes it deep into floor 3). No offense, but I need to see it to believe it.

[Game Familiar]

Originally posted by Don't You Rage Quit on Me:

I would love to see a deck that can manage that much virus. From the cards I've seen, it would be BARELY possible if you get the perfect cards, and the payoff isn't worth the effort. The level 15 card seems weak for that much effort. Regardless, I'd like to see a video of a build that consistently hits 15+ virus over the course of the run (and makes it deep into floor 3). No offense, but I need to see it to believe it.

Jokan & Doltar Run
Final fight I end up with 30 viruses on that one.

[Don't You Rage Quit on Me]

Originally posted by Game Familiar:

Originally posted by Don't You Rage Quit on Me:

I would love to see a deck that can manage that much virus. From the cards I've seen, it would be BARELY possible if you get the perfect cards, and the payoff isn't worth the effort. The level 15 card seems weak for that much effort. Regardless, I'd like to see a video of a build that consistently hits 15+ virus over the course of the run (and makes it deep into floor 3). No offense, but I need to see it to believe it.

Jokan & Doltar Run
Final fight I end up with 30 viruses on that one.

Thanks for sharing. I will point out that your video was from before version 1.0 and many cards you are using were more powerful. Just the fact that your Cursed Vigors blocked more damage than they do now (and could be upgraded to block 17!) is pretty significant. Still, it's a useful video, but I'm not sure how possible it still is to reliably hit 15+ virus, although Jokan is probably the best to do it with.

[Ac1d_Bl4ck]

Virus is the only mechanic among 3 that punishes the player. The other two are management dependent, but purely beneficial, while virus screws both your draw and your HP.

Regarding the first character, her virus also doesn't provide persitent benefits, like the other two. Stack 8 viruses (difficult to get to and manage) to get a one-time bonus. VS counterattack that's always available. Or effects that activate every round you get a virus while also not having to stack them. All of this indeed is odd.

I enjoy the game, but utterly avoid the virus faction. Too many hoops to jump with lesser payoff.

[Game Familiar]

Originally posted by Don't You Rage Quit on Me:

Originally posted by Game Familiar:

Jokan & Doltar Run
Final fight I end up with 30 viruses on that one.

Thanks for sharing. I will point out that your video was from before version 1.0 and many cards you are using were more powerful. Just the fact that your Cursed Vigors blocked more damage than they do now (and could be upgraded to block 17!) is pretty significant. Still, it's a useful video, but I'm not sure how possible it still is to reliably hit 15+ virus, although Jokan is probably the best to do it with.

I did it on both my last Jokan runs with the 2 Guild Companions after both nerfs to defends, I did not streamed those runs prioritizing the Guild on those, I did a recent Sora/Bot one though, I usually share end decks under the strategy thread in the Discord Channel, and yes is usually just a Jokan thing.

[Don't You Rage Quit on Me]

Originally posted by Game Familiar:

Originally posted by Don't You Rage Quit on Me:

Thanks for sharing. I will point out that your video was from before version 1.0 and many cards you are using were more powerful. Just the fact that your Cursed Vigors blocked more damage than they do now (and could be upgraded to block 17!) is pretty significant. Still, it's a useful video, but I'm not sure how possible it still is to reliably hit 15+ virus, although Jokan is probably the best to do it with.

I did it on both my last Jokan runs with the 2 Guild Companions after both nerfs to defends, I did not streamed those runs prioritizing the Guild on those, I did a recent Sora/Bot one though, I usually share end decks under the strategy thread in the Discord Channel, and yes is usually just a Jokan thing.

Yeah, as I said, it seems like only Jokan can pull this off. I've tried both of the other two virus heroes and they both had trouble getting high on the virus meter and the decks were much harder to manage than Jokan.

All in all, the virus mechanic just seems a bit off...unless you're playing Jokan (who is crazy powerful).

[Game Familiar]

Originally posted by Don't You Rage Quit on Me:

Originally posted by Game Familiar:

All in all, the virus mechanic just seems a bit off...unless you're playing Jokan (who is crazy powerful).

Issandre is quite powerful as well, is just that you get a front loaded benefit for adding a Virus after that they are curse so you have to find ways to leverage that extra pulse, and try to keep things under control, tons of fun and really tactical during fights, she is probably the most powerful of the 3.

Sora used to be flat out broken, as in she was the one character that could straight out play rush without worrying about block and just kill everything before they had a chance to act, now it requires a lot more thinking and you do need to worry about guard, TO have really nice block cards and she has two permanent transformations that make her quite powerful and scale in opposite sides, Purge is if you want to keep things with low viruses, and Transcend if you want to go full blast on viruses.

[TheReturned]

Just my 2 cents, I've only been playing for 2 days, but I think Virus decks are meant to be a balancing act. Just like the Cobalt curse they represent, there's a sweet spot you need to reach. Too many viruses and you will simply die to the Curse by losing health/not drawing cards to play. Too few and you won't benefit from the positive card effects unlocked by the virus.

To OP's point, I don't think the ideal way to go is to try and have 10+ viruses in your deck. That's a high-risk strategy that doesn't pay off for 2 reasons IMO: First, your draws become terrible, because there are so many viruses in your deck, and second, the card benefits unlocked by high virus counts don't quite compensate, especially at the current game difficulty where having one dead turn will ruin you.

I'd say the way to go is to have anywhere from 4 to 8 viruses, depending on the cards you have and the power of your character - mainly Sora, I think it's her sweet spot. You also have to pay attention to cards that offer deck manipulation of viruses - such as moving to discard, moving/adding to draw pile/erasing.

If you can trim the basic cards from your deck, you can minimize the impact of unwanted viruses in hand by tossing them from draw to discard or vice versa without actually polluting your hand, and reaping the benefits that the cards provide for doing so.

Also, when upgrading, prioritize card draw. Bigger hand, more consistency.

In any case, I've had most success with Sora, including my only winning run.

[Jlerpy]

In the earlier version, it started with you playing one of the counterattacking characters.

[Gifts Ungiven]

Originally posted by Don't You Rage Quit on Me:

I would love to see a deck that can manage that much virus. From the cards I've seen, it would be BARELY possible if you get the perfect cards, and the payoff isn't worth the effort. The level 15 card seems weak for that much effort. Regardless, I'd like to see a video of a build that consistently hits 15+ virus over the course of the run (and makes it deep into floor 3). No offense, but I need to see it to believe it.

Red robot dude had me consistently blowing past 15+ Virus every fight from Floor 2 onward the one time I played him, and it wasn't hard to win that run either. Just gotta stay hyper aggressive and punch everyone to death before they can punch you first!

[Don't You Rage Quit on Me]

Originally posted by Gifts Ungiven:

Originally posted by Don't You Rage Quit on Me:

I would love to see a deck that can manage that much virus. From the cards I've seen, it would be BARELY possible if you get the perfect cards, and the payoff isn't worth the effort. The level 15 card seems weak for that much effort. Regardless, I'd like to see a video of a build that consistently hits 15+ virus over the course of the run (and makes it deep into floor 3). No offense, but I need to see it to believe it.

Red robot dude had me consistently blowing past 15+ Virus every fight from Floor 2 onward the one time I played him, and it wasn't hard to win that run either. Just gotta stay hyper aggressive and punch everyone to death before they can punch you first!

I mention above a couple of times that it only seems possible with Jokan (the red robot dude). With the other two heroes, it feels like hitting 15 virus is extremely difficult, and not worth the effort even if you do. It almost feels like the virus meter goes to 15 just for Jokan, which seems odd.

[Game Familiar]

Originally posted by Don't You Rage Quit on Me:

Originally posted by Gifts Ungiven:

Red robot dude had me consistently blowing past 15+ Virus every fight from Floor 2 onward the one time I played him, and it wasn't hard to win that run either. Just gotta stay hyper aggressive and punch everyone to death before they can punch you first!

I mention above a couple of times that it only seems possible with Jokan (the red robot dude). With the other two heroes, it feels like hitting 15 virus is extremely difficult, and not worth the effort even if you do. It almost feels like the virus meter goes to 15 just for Jokan, which seems odd.

He does it more often as it has a direct synergy with his ability, but Sora gets there quite often specially if you try to aim for the transcend transformation. Issandre is differente since she gets an upfront benefit from the virus she benefits from keeping them under control thar being said I've had some "careless" Issandre runs that hit 15 on boss fights, is not the aim of the deck itself, they tend to be tense and fun runs.

[Gifts Ungiven]

Originally posted by Don't You Rage Quit on Me:

Originally posted by Gifts Ungiven:

Red robot dude had me consistently blowing past 15+ Virus every fight from Floor 2 onward the one time I played him, and it wasn't hard to win that run either. Just gotta stay hyper aggressive and punch everyone to death before they can punch you first!

I mention above a couple of times that it only seems possible with Jokan (the red robot dude). With the other two heroes, it feels like hitting 15 virus is extremely difficult, and not worth the effort even if you do. It almost feels like the virus meter goes to 15 just for Jokan, which seems odd.

I tried Issandre for the first time last night, and you're definitely right that she doesn't hit large Viral loads anywhere as effortlessly as Jokan, but I was still making it to Cobalt 3 in all my Boss & Elite fights from Floor 2 through the end. You do so with different tempo and play patterns, but it was overall still a desirable goal and far more bonus than malus to have my deck filling up with Virus.

In regards to your OP, I'm teaching my wife how to play as we speak, and I set her up with the 1st Counter gal + 3rd Counter King dude as companion because I do agree that play mechanic is more easily readable for a first playthrough. I don't think the Virus decks are that much more difficult though, and having Rocks in your deck with +/- factors is already a fairly standard deck-builder genre trope. The biggest issue Virus presents for a new player is that the upsides to filling your deck with poison rocks isn't immediately apparent if you don't already know which cards could appear in later drafts to benefit from them. The Hero Cards give a bit of a hint towards that at least, and with a bit of assumptive Meta knowledge I figured pretty quickly that these were just another set of resources to manipulate, but perhaps there's more that could be expressed directly from tooltips / pop-ups.

Regardless, I think the Virus clan is overall incredibly powerful and I haven't had any trouble winning with them. They're certainly far less mechanically complex when compared to the Sad Knight or any of the Gunslingers!