Be vocal about the unjustifiable inclusion of the inferior Game Gear ports over Master System versions because...

[Shortbread Head]

It is unacceptable that they chose to include the game gear versions over the master system versions then have the gall to claim this is the "definitive" way to play these games in their earlier live stream.

The game gear versions have always been the worst way to experience many of these games (referring only to the ones that weren't game gear exclusive), at points it can be close to impossible to play, other times it ruins the experience bordering on unplayable.

At all times though, they suffer from screen crunch because of how they were ported to the game gear, if your not familiar then I suggest looking up gameplay of both original versions on youtube to see for yourself what the experience SHOULD be.

I honestly can't think of a valid reason as to why they couldn't use the Master System versions of the games. The first did release in NA and all others worked at 60hz with modifications to the system to allow it, but even if this wasn't the case I don't see a way they could justify putting in the work to get them running properly in this day and age, especially while charging for it.

I would happily accept if the versions gave the option to choose between game gear and master system, I would even make a concession if they included the master system versions as the original PAL versions running at the speed they were but again, even if they were forced to run at 60hz it would only speed up the games and this could depend on your tolerance or how much you need it to be exact to the original experience.

I'm not saying to not buy the DLC, I think there is value there, I just think it's important they are made aware that as customers we should be treated better, and not be taken for fools being told that it's the definitive way to play when it assuredly could never be given the far superior versions already available and released by SEGA.

I apologise for the lengthy post I just think it's important that these companies are held to the standards we deserve, when paying for content that the effort has been put in respectively rather than just expecting we will put up with it.

[Shortbread Head]

Semi-related, but the fact that they didn't even include achievements shows how little they care about the DLC. This is a small issue but still relevant as it shows they didn't take the time to make the experience complete

[Mez Koo]

It is rather insane that they didn't use the master system versions, they could've have just called them the game gear games but at least give the better version for the "premium" price.

[Tanoomba]

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

It is unacceptable that they chose to include the game gear versions over the master system versions then have the gall to claim this is the "definitive" way to play these games in their earlier live stream.

They probably meant the definitive way to play these Game Gear games.
Also, "unacceptable" is subjective. I think it's fine to include the GG games.

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

The game gear versions have always been the worst way to experience many of these games (referring only to the ones that weren't game gear exclusive), at points it can be close to impossible to play, other times it ruins the experience bordering on unplayable.

I understand that changing the screen proportions can have an impact on how these games play. I can also say that, as someone who has only ever played the GG versions of Sonic and Sonic 2 and not the Master System versions, they are FAR from unplayable and present no challenges that can't be overcome with patience and perseverance.

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

I honestly can't think of a valid reason as to why they couldn't use the Master System versions of the games.

The work was already done for these games, for one. They've been included in past compilations and it was probably a simple matter to throw 'em into Plus. From what I understand, Sega hasn't developed an in-house Master System emulator, whereas they have for Game Gear. There's also something to be said for consistency, as "12 classic Game Gear games" is simpler than "12 classic Game Gear games plus a couple that also have Master System versions".

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

I'm not saying to not buy the DLC, I think there is value there, I just think it's important they are made aware that as customers we should be treated better, and not be taken for fools being told that it's the definitive way to play when it assuredly could never be given the far superior versions already available and released by SEGA.

This has nothing to do with how customers are treated and nobody is being taken for a fool. That's just hyperbole used in service of entitlement narratives, and it's not a good look. A product is being provided as-is, and everyone is welcome to like it or not on its own merits. It's OK to have preferred the Master System versions of some of these games and it's OK to vocalize your criticism, but you are not owed having your personal preferences accommodated and you certainly haven't been wronged.

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

I apologise for the lengthy post I just think it's important that these companies are held to the standards we deserve, when paying for content that the effort has been put in respectively rather than just expecting we will put up with it.

We don't "deserve" anything. It's subjectively-experienced entertainment media, we can like it or not.

[H3llF1re]

Pretty much agree with this. I remember playing Sonic 2 on the Game Gear as a kid, didn't own a Master System at the time. I remember thinking how hard the game was - it wasn't until years later when I actually played it on a Master System that I realised why it was so difficult.

Not only this, the Game Gear games feel pretty awful to play in Origins - really laggy, and the sound is terrible.

Don't get me wrong I loved the Game Gear back in the day, but this is far from the "definitive" way to play any of these games.

[Tanoomba]

Originally posted by H3llF1re:

and the sound is terrible.

If you change the sound setting to "mono" it sounds much better.

[H3llF1re]

Originally posted by Tanoomba:

Originally posted by H3llF1re:

and the sound is terrible.

If you change the sound setting to "mono" it sounds much better.

Thanks for the tip!

[Shortbread Head]

Originally posted by Tanoomba:

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

It is unacceptable that they chose to include the game gear versions over the master system versions then have the gall to claim this is the "definitive" way to play these games in their earlier live stream.

They probably meant the definitive way to play these Game Gear games.
Also, "unacceptable" is subjective. I think it's fine to include the GG games.

The definitive way to play some of the Game Gear games are by playing the Master System versions as I said, as the GG versions are ports. I said unacceptable because they have the ability to port the master system versions, which I will go into further into this reply.

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

The game gear versions have always been the worst way to experience many of these games (referring only to the ones that weren't game gear exclusive), at points it can be close to impossible to play, other times it ruins the experience bordering on unplayable.

I understand that changing the screen proportions can have an impact on how these games play. I can also say that, as someone who has only ever played the GG versions of Sonic and Sonic 2 and not the Master System versions, they are FAR from unplayable and present no challenges that can't be overcome with patience and perseverance.

The screen "proportions" aren't the issue nor the only one. There is a significant graphical downgrade, what you can see is literally just a smaller portion of what is on display in the original release. I played the GG versions as well, first actually. It was after playing them on Master system that going back to playing them on game gear wasn't an option. Patience and perseverance isn't a good argument for accepting a lesser product, just because you're happy to accept it doesn't mean everyone should.

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

I honestly can't think of a valid reason as to why they couldn't use the Master System versions of the games.

The work was already done for these games, for one. They've been included in past compilations and it was probably a simple matter to throw 'em into Plus. From what I understand, Sega hasn't developed an in-house Master System emulator, whereas they have for Game Gear. There's also something to be said for consistency, as "12 classic Game Gear games" is simpler than "12 classic Game Gear games plus a couple that also have Master System versions".

I need to break this response into three parts because you contradict yourself immensely. You said the work was already done for these games because they were in past collections, so were they developed on an in-house emulator or not? I'm asking because if it's an emulator then there wasn't work already done for these games, they were just using there in house emulator right?

Leading me to the second part, they haven't developed an in-house master system emulator? So the master system games included in their Sega ages collections going as far back as the Sega Saturn, PS2 all the way up to the Switch that include Master System games, how did they work?

Your idea of consistency means nothing to other people but I'll give, "12 classic Sonic games including many from the 8-bit era", there you go, there's your consistency. There are many classic collections that include games from multiple systems, as well as the same games including multiple regions.

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

I'm not saying to not buy the DLC, I think there is value there, I just think it's important they are made aware that as customers we should be treated better, and not be taken for fools being told that it's the definitive way to play when it assuredly could never be given the far superior versions already available and released by SEGA.

This has nothing to do with how customers are treated and nobody is being taken for a fool. That's just hyperbole used in service of entitlement narratives, and it's not a good look. A product is being provided as-is, and everyone is welcome to like it or not on its own merits. It's OK to have preferred the Master System versions of some of these games and it's OK to vocalize your criticism, but you are not owed having your personal preferences accommodated and you certainly haven't been wronged.

Sorry but what you said means nothing. I may have worded it poorly so let me clarify for you. Fan of the series who have been there from the beginning (which this was clearly intended to appeal to) would probably prefer the package to include the best version of the games that they themselves released. So to be given the lesser version feels like a bit of a rough deal when those who WOULD know these games have most likely already played all of them in every format they can find, therefore plenty of people who do would happily support re-releases of these games while also being pretty confused as to why they didn't include the best (original, as I keep saying) versions of said game. I'm far from the only person questioning this choice and it's far from entitled to ask for a little more from them.

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

I apologise for the lengthy post I just think it's important that these companies are held to the standards we deserve, when paying for content that the effort has been put in respectively rather than just expecting we will put up with it.

We don't "deserve" anything. It's subjectively-experienced entertainment media, we can like it or not.

Again I'll reword this as you're intentionally assuming my tone. I am neither saying we deserve to get everything handed to us or that we should have been given full blown remakes. I am saying that we should expect as customers to get the better experience that is available, and considering there are many who have been customers since the games originally released, acknowledging their support for that long by doing so as a thanks for being there isn't "deserved", because when you put it in quotation marks you already gave it negative connotations, but it is a pro-consumer thing to do.
Subjectively-experienced media can still be digested in worse ways, if I was to make you watch a movie in 480p and black and white, charge you for it even though I have it in 4k and obviously colour and tell you you can like it or not I'm sure you'll be okay with that then.

[Shortbread Head]

Originally posted by Tanoomba:

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

It is unacceptable that they chose to include the game gear versions over the master system versions then have the gall to claim this is the "definitive" way to play these games in their earlier live stream.

They probably meant the definitive way to play these Game Gear games.
Also, "unacceptable" is subjective. I think it's fine to include the GG games.

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

The game gear versions have always been the worst way to experience many of these games (referring only to the ones that weren't game gear exclusive), at points it can be close to impossible to play, other times it ruins the experience bordering on unplayable.

I understand that changing the screen proportions can have an impact on how these games play. I can also say that, as someone who has only ever played the GG versions of Sonic and Sonic 2 and not the Master System versions, they are FAR from unplayable and present no challenges that can't be overcome with patience and perseverance.

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

I honestly can't think of a valid reason as to why they couldn't use the Master System versions of the games.

The work was already done for these games, for one. They've been included in past compilations and it was probably a simple matter to throw 'em into Plus. From what I understand, Sega hasn't developed an in-house Master System emulator, whereas they have for Game Gear. There's also something to be said for consistency, as "12 classic Game Gear games" is simpler than "12 classic Game Gear games plus a couple that also have Master System versions".

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

I'm not saying to not buy the DLC, I think there is value there, I just think it's important they are made aware that as customers we should be treated better, and not be taken for fools being told that it's the definitive way to play when it assuredly could never be given the far superior versions already available and released by SEGA.

This has nothing to do with how customers are treated and nobody is being taken for a fool. That's just hyperbole used in service of entitlement narratives, and it's not a good look. A product is being provided as-is, and everyone is welcome to like it or not on its own merits. It's OK to have preferred the Master System versions of some of these games and it's OK to vocalize your criticism, but you are not owed having your personal preferences accommodated and you certainly haven't been wronged.

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

I apologise for the lengthy post I just think it's important that these companies are held to the standards we deserve, when paying for content that the effort has been put in respectively rather than just expecting we will put up with it.

We don't "deserve" anything. It's subjectively-experienced entertainment media, we can like it or not.

So just to point out, my last response I ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up the formatting. You'll find my answers to each of your points within the quoted text. My bad, I should have checked before posting, but like it or not, that's how it is.

[Shortbread Head]

Originally posted by H3llF1re:

Pretty much agree with this. I remember playing Sonic 2 on the Game Gear as a kid, didn't own a Master System at the time. I remember thinking how hard the game was - it wasn't until years later when I actually played it on a Master System that I realised why it was so difficult.

Not only this, the Game Gear games feel pretty awful to play in Origins - really laggy, and the sound is terrible.

Don't get me wrong I loved the Game Gear back in the day, but this is far from the "definitive" way to play any of these games.

Yeah I can't get my head around the choice. It's not just the fact that you only see a small part of what would be on display in the master system game, the graphical downgrade from SMS to GG is big too, while neither would look amazing on a modern display it still makes less sense to opt for the GG in this case.

The game gear was great if not a battery hog haha, but we've come a long way since then. While it's still nice to see games like this without the ghosting, it still doesn't make it optimal and I stand by that they could have at least included both versions to choose between for the ones that were originally on the master system

[Shortbread Head]

Originally posted by Mez Koo:

It is rather insane that they didn't use the master system versions, they could've have just called them the game gear games but at least give the better version for the "premium" price.

This is also another way they could have done it. While not perfect since I still feel they could have just included it, it wouldn't exactly be unexpected at the same time. What I mean is if they can have a deluxe edition of the base game that includes optional, extra content that is purely optional and unnecessary for those who decide they don't need it.. then is it that hard to imagine them having two versions of the DLC, one including the optional master system versions?

Most of the time things like these are really just marketing strategies anyway, call something the deluxe edition then people will buy it even if the value of the extra content doesn't even personally justify it to them, call DLC packs "Plus" and "Plus Extra" (just an example", even the people that would have previously said they wouldn't consider spending more than the price of the lower priced version will buy the more expensive one.

I'm definitely not condoning that kind of practice I'm just saying how it's already shamefully done, and obviously in this situation I realise my own weakness in that I'd half happily, half begrudgingly spend the extra just to get the Master system versions :(

[Tanoomba]

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

The definitive way to play some of the Game Gear games are by playing the Master System versions

But those aren't the Game Gear versions. If it's important to you that these are ports, then just consider that they're saying "This is the definitive way to play these Game Gear ports". Better?

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

The screen "proportions" aren't the issue nor the only one. There is a significant graphical downgrade, what you can see is literally just a smaller portion of what is on display in the original release.

That's what I meant by "proportions". You have a zoomed-in view in the Game Gear versions.

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

Patience and perseverance isn't a good argument for accepting a lesser product

"Lesser" is relative, and subjective.

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

just because you're happy to accept it doesn't mean everyone should.

I never said everyone should. But if it's subjective, then you haven't been wronged.

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

so were they developed on an in-house emulator or not?

Yes, I imagine they developed and used their in-house Game Gear emulator.

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

So the master system games included in their Sega ages collections going as far back as the Sega Saturn, PS2 all the way up to the Switch that include Master System games, how did they work?

I believe M2 made and likely owns that emulator.

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

Fan of the series who have been there from the beginning (which this was clearly intended to appeal to) would probably prefer the package to include the best version of the games that they themselves released.

I am a fan who was there from the beginning, having played the original Sonic (and its sequels) on the Genesis at release. I still have the console and all the cartridges. And believe it or not, given the choice I would also prefer Sega had included the Master System versions of the games. I also own most of the Sega Ages collection for Japanese PS2 and my absolute favorite thing about them is that some of the retro compilations (like the "Gunstar Heroes Treasure Box") is that they included the Genesis, Master System and Game Gear versions of every game, where applicable. I LOVE when publishers make the extra effort to include things like that.

But see, I'm not owed any of that and I'm not going to be upset when I don't get it. I've been gaming for most of my life and I've never been more spoiled for selection and accessibility than I am now.

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

I'm far from the only person questioning this choice and it's far from entitled to ask for a little more from them.

It's not entitlement to ask for anything. It's entitlement to present it as an insult that you didn't get it.

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

I am saying that we should expect as customers to get the better experience that is available

But that's nonsense. It's subjectively-experienced entertainment media. There is no "better experience", just what you, personally, would prefer.

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

it is a pro-consumer thing to do.

There are an infinite number of "pro-consumer" things they could theoretically do. There will ALWAYS be people wishing their personal wishes had been granted.

[Tanoomba]

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

then is it that hard to imagine them having two versions of the DLC, one including the optional master system versions?

Seriously?
One of the main gripes I have about Origins is the absolute mess they made with the multiple versions and optional DLC. The obtuse and indecipherable version chart is a meme, Frankly. I think the fact that they're including previous DLC with the Plus expansion is an apology for that fiasco. I'm stunned that anyone could suggest that it would be fine if they would split hairs over multiple versions of Plus, one of which would include Master System games and one of which wouldn't.

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

Most of the time things like these are really just marketing strategies anyway

I agree 100%. I think they included the Game Gear games because
- They heard people express an interest in having those games included (or, more likely, heard people complain that they weren't included).
- They wanted a way to add value to and justify charging for Plus, as playable Amy and Knuckles in CD alone wouldn't necessarily warrant a separate purchase.
- They already had these games and the emulator sitting around and could convert it with minimal effort.

That might sound cynical, but in the end I can't complain because it all benefits me. I'm very much looking forward to playing those Game Gear games. I'm positive I'll have a good time with them. And I have no problem waiting for Origins and Plus to fall within my acceptable price range, because I have a million other games to play in the meantime. It's never been a better time to be a gamer.

[Mez Koo]

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

Originally posted by Mez Koo:

It is rather insane that they didn't use the master system versions, they could've have just called them the game gear games but at least give the better version for the "premium" price.

This is also another way they could have done it. While not perfect since I still feel they could have just included it, it wouldn't exactly be unexpected at the same time. What I mean is if they can have a deluxe edition of the base game that includes optional, extra content that is purely optional and unnecessary for those who decide they don't need it.. then is it that hard to imagine them having two versions of the DLC, one including the optional master system versions?

Why two different dlc? No point in buying the same thing twice I meant the pack is already a "premium" at 10$ so the best versions would be nice.

[TheForestSpirit]

If you're playing the GG games on a computer I can totally understand your complaint but as a Steam Deck owner I really don't have an issue playing these versions. This being said though would I have preferred the Master System versions? most definitely as they were the versions I played the most back in the day.

[Shortbread Head]

Originally posted by Mez Koo:

Originally posted by Shortbread Head:

This is also another way they could have done it. While not perfect since I still feel they could have just included it, it wouldn't exactly be unexpected at the same time. What I mean is if they can have a deluxe edition of the base game that includes optional, extra content that is purely optional and unnecessary for those who decide they don't need it.. then is it that hard to imagine them having two versions of the DLC, one including the optional master system versions?

Why two different dlc? No point in buying the same thing twice I meant the pack is already a "premium" at 10$ so the best versions would be nice.

Oh no, I was NOT saying that they should. I just meant it wouldn't be altogether unexpected if they chose to do so. I agree with what you said as if they only wanted to use the Game Gear for larger marketing due to the lack of popularity of the Master System in NA then that's cool but they could have included the option to choose the master system version for said games. Say even someone playing the games for the first time expecting to boot up this unheard of Game gear game for the first time clicks one only to be greeted with another option saying something like "Would you like to play the original master system game for the best experience?"

It's just little things like that that really make a difference for brand loyalty in the long run