How does the item pool work?

[Urban Shaman]

It seems to me the item pool is semi-determined? Example: I'm trying to get the two pigeon combo and I have one already on me. Long story short: I use 4 banishes, level up to 70 and I'm fully kitted in almost every other way... but no second pigeon. Instead, the same few "new" choices keep cropping up.

Is it just a matter of the cosmic dice getting rolled when a level starts, or is there something else?

[GeminiEclipse]

Items only appear in the item pool if unlocked and not banished. There's a weight system, so things like bone and carello don't appear very often. Otherwise it's just luck of the draw.

Reroll seems to pick different things than what is offered but I'm not completely familiar with how it works and too lazy to look it up.

Did you unlock the black bird?

[Urban Shaman]

I've definitely seen both birds pop up as choices... the only issue was they've always appeared in separate runs. :/

[Vexleigh]

The VS Wiki lists the different items' rarity, which ranges from 1 to 100. 100 are common drops (Axe, Knife, Magic Wand, Santa Water, and Whip) while those with rarity of 1 almost never show up (Bone, Carréllo, Celestial Dusting, Cherry Bomb, and La Robba). The birds both have a rarity of 50, so they're not guaranteed to show up every run.

[Urban Shaman]

I've just had a very weird run. Now, either my brain is malfunctioning due to all the flashing lights, or there was something weird. Once more I was trying to get the bird combo, but I was careful about it. I didn't pick either animal until I saw that both birds appeared in the level-up list. Once I confirmed that, I first picked the black bird, and then after a while saw the white bird appear. "YESS!" I thought, especially since this was the last item slot. I pick up the white bird and continue on my merry way until the next level up, at which point I was shocked to see "new" items, and... where the heck's my black bird? O_o

I haven't got a clue what the heck happened during that run. :(

[Ninja Zyborg]

Originally posted by Shaamaan:

I've just had a very weird run. Now, either my brain is malfunctioning due to all the flashing lights, or there was something weird. Once more I was trying to get the bird combo, but I was careful about it. I didn't pick either animal until I saw that both birds appeared in the level-up list. Once I confirmed that, I first picked the black bird, and then after a while saw the white bird appear. "YESS!" I thought, especially since this was the last item slot. I pick up the white bird and continue on my merry way until the next level up, at which point I was shocked to see "new" items, and... where the heck's my black bird? O_o

I haven't got a clue what the heck happened during that run. :(

my guy you probably misclicked

[Vexleigh]

Originally posted by Shaamaan:

[...] I didn't pick either animal until I saw that both birds appeared in the level-up list. [...]

I'm pretty sure this actually reduces your chances of getting both birds. A rare-ish item showing up once during a run is no guarantee that it'll show up again. Get either one of the birds as soon as you can, and keep a free slot for the other for as long as you can. Banish, reroll, and skip will help with that, if you've unlocked them. You may also want to plan ahead what other weapons you want.

[Urban Shaman]

Originally posted by Vexleigh:

Originally posted by Shaamaan:

[...] I didn't pick either animal until I saw that both birds appeared in the level-up list. [...]

I'm pretty sure this actually reduces your chances of getting both birds. A rare-ish item showing up once during a run is no guarantee that it'll show up again. Get either one of the birds as soon as you can, and keep a free slot for the other for as long as you can. Banish, reroll, and skip will help with that, if you've unlocked them. You may also want to plan ahead what other weapons you want.

But if available items during a run are generated when the run starts... this doesn't matter I think. But that's been my experience so far - like... say I wanted a runetracer (which isn't rare, is it?). I've had runs where it just wouldn't show up, at all, ever.

I mean, if the item in question is VERY rare, then sure. But it doesn't sound like the birds are THAT rare?

[KellyR]

Originally posted by Shaamaan:

Originally posted by Vexleigh:

I'm pretty sure this actually reduces your chances of getting both birds. A rare-ish item showing up once during a run is no guarantee that it'll show up again. Get either one of the birds as soon as you can, and keep a free slot for the other for as long as you can. Banish, reroll, and skip will help with that, if you've unlocked them. You may also want to plan ahead what other weapons you want.

But if available items during a run are generated when the run starts... this doesn't matter I think. But that's been my experience so far - like... say I wanted a runetracer (which isn't rare, is it?). I've had runs where it just wouldn't show up, at all, ever.

I mean, if the item in question is VERY rare, then sure. But it doesn't sound like the birds are THAT rare?

They're not generated before the run. It's a straight up dice roll. It would be a gigantic pain in the ass to make banish work otherwise, and no programmer would put their self in that situation deliberately.

Basically you've just been having bad luck. Make sure to unlock (and buy) ALL the banish and rerolls (Skips are good, but they're the last resort. Banish first, reroll second, skip if all else fails) so you should prioritize getting banishes and rerolls.

[Vexleigh]

Originally posted by KellyR:

Originally posted by Shaamaan:

But if available items during a run are generated when the run starts... this doesn't matter I think. But that's been my experience so far - like... say I wanted a runetracer (which isn't rare, is it?). I've had runs where it just wouldn't show up, at all, ever.

I mean, if the item in question is VERY rare, then sure. But it doesn't sound like the birds are THAT rare?

They're not generated before the run. It's a straight up dice roll. It would be a gigantic pain in the ass to make banish work otherwise, and no programmer would put their self in that situation deliberately.

Basically you've just been having bad luck. Make sure to unlock (and buy) ALL the banish and rerolls (Skips are good, but they're the last resort. Banish first, reroll second, skip if all else fails) so you should prioritize getting banishes and rerolls.

^ Yes, this. Every time you're offered a new item, it's from the full pool of items (except the ones you have banished that run).

Also regarding item rarity, 50 might not sound that rare, but only rarity 1 weapons are more rare. All other weapons have a rarity between 100 and 60. Runetracer has 80.

At some point I saw a theory of some kind that picking up an item would "call" its evolution pair to appear more often in the offered items (so if you want Runetracer, get Armor). I don't know if it was ever proven or disproven. It seems to work, but it could just be confirmation bias.

[gruetoo]

Originally posted by Vexleigh:

Originally posted by KellyR:

They're not generated before the run. It's a straight up dice roll. It would be a gigantic pain in the ass to make banish work otherwise, and no programmer would put their self in that situation deliberately.

Basically you've just been having bad luck. Make sure to unlock (and buy) ALL the banish and rerolls (Skips are good, but they're the last resort. Banish first, reroll second, skip if all else fails) so you should prioritize getting banishes and rerolls.

^ Yes, this. Every time you're offered a new item, it's from the full pool of items (except the ones you have banished that run).

Also regarding item rarity, 50 might not sound that rare, but only rarity 1 weapons are more rare. All other weapons have a rarity between 100 and 60. Runetracer has 80.

At some point I saw a theory of some kind that picking up an item would "call" its evolution pair to appear more often in the offered items (so if you want Runetracer, get Armor). I don't know if it was ever proven or disproven. It seems to work, but it could just be confirmation bias.

i believe a higher luck stat increases how often the other half of an evolution shows up.

[Gravemind]

All just RNG with weighted odds.
My 3rd run in the game ever I hit the 30m timer, just from blessed drops.

[Urban Shaman]

OK, I stand corrected then. It just felt odd that I never seemed to see any new choices. Thanks for the explenations.

Also, I finally did get the bird combo (yey!) and I honestly don't understand why they're rare - it was kind of... meh (boo!). :P

[Arlian Sellan]

Copying this from another thread:

Yep, IIRC, laurel and Clock Lancet have a "weight" of 60. Some weapons have a weight of 40, most are 100, and 5 are 1.

The higher the better.

The way weight NORMALLY works is "the amount of the pie they get", let's say you have 5 weapons: 100, 100, 60, 60, 40. If you sum (add up) the numbers, you get a pie of 360 units.

The 100 gets 100/360th. The 60 gets 60/360th of the pie. When a random number generator is called, it choses a number from 1 to 360; and whatever the number lands on is the item chosen.

As you play, you start getting a knack for which weapons are common (100) and which are rarer (60 or 40) and you can usually weed out undesired commons with a banish. This makes the pool smaller which makes it more likely to land on a rare (as the percentage of the pie for the rare is bigger).

[Albireo]

They aren't THAT rare. You can make them much more common by using those banishes on the common items you don't want. As noted above there is no "limited pool" of drops per run. all items are possible every level up. Lastly the bird combo is underwhelming till you add points to it, its the only evolution that can itself level up, does some crazy damage to anything in its target zone.

[Sabin Stargem]

I am certain that random drops and gears are heavily weighted at the start of the match, in addition to their base rarity. The game seems to insist on taking them, regardless of whether or not you aim for unions or evolution. Not fun when the game keeps you from collecting your intended gear for 18+ minutes.

It would be nice if gear options have a displayed chance percentage, so that I would know to banish troublesome items early. Unfortunately, because I have no real information, I tend to be stuck with just upgrading the stuff I already have.