Pugnala not way too op.

[Bendigeidfran]

Pugnala is great. At its core it's about finding creative ways to make the numbers larger, right? Bring the other characters up to Pugnala's level, some of them are way too bland. Best way to improve VS is to add more potential for interesting and powerful combos.

[AnonTwo]

Damage falling off doesn't mean a weapon becomes useless, it means it needs assistance from other weapons to keep them off you.

So every weapon falls off then....

Aside from MAYBE the twin guns evol, there isn't a weapon that can reach 30m without assistance

And I can tell you for a fact that on max curse only the 25m boss can reach you when using Garlic+Whip+Song

You know, weapons that ACTUALLY provide strong knockback, not any of the weapons you listed.

And i'm not talking figuratively I mean a wall is placed between you and any enemy that isn't the 25m boss. Try it.

[Garou]

idk early characters are supposed to be weaker than the ones you unlock later. so maybe keep them as they are

[therokito]

I make all my best runs with this guy, except when im trying to get quick kills in Moline(starting with Poppea works best there)

cant wait to see the performance increase with the new engine so that i can go even faster with less lag.

[Blurry Eyes]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von AnonTwo:

So every weapon falls off then....

Aside from MAYBE the twin guns evol, there isn't a weapon that can reach 30m without assistance

And I can tell you for a fact that on max curse only the 25m boss can reach you when using Garlic+Whip+Song

You know, weapons that ACTUALLY provide strong knockback, not any of the weapons you listed.

And i'm not talking figuratively I mean a wall is placed between you and any enemy that isn't the 25m boss. Try it.

Oh god you have no idea how hard it is to not be completely sarcastic here. Yes, I'm well aware stacking knockback weapons together with another weapon does in fact knock things back. All I'm going to say is that does not change the weaknesses that additional weapon has, it does not mean that weapon keeps everything back from you, and it is far from the only OP weapon combination you can build with it that will handle everything the game throws at you.

I'm sorry I tried to type a more measured response but I could not, I'm dying over here.

[anima132000]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von UVERworld - D-TecnoLife:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von AnonTwo:

It really doesn't fall off. It becomes one of the best support defense items in the game.

If it falls off, it means you're somehow relying on it 15m in, when you should have various weapons by then benefitting from it's massive slow.

Combined with other knockbacks it can literally prevent any enemy except the 25m boss from reaching you.

It does not fall off.

Damage falling off doesn't mean a weapon becomes useless, it means it needs assistance from other weapons to keep them off you. I can tell you for a fact with maxed powerups and always running maxed duplicator, tome, spinach, candelbrador (other accessories rotate based on weapon build) it does not stop everything from reaching you, quite a few enemies are capable of breaching. And yes, that's with weapons like la borra, death spiral, thunder loop, etc. supporting it.

It's a strong weapon, all three of the most recent evolved weapons are strong. But it has its weaknesses and drawbacks. It's weaker in the endgame as your primary weapon than the other two new ones.

End game is questionable because Mannajja's slow gains significantly more value late game than early game because of enemy HP scaling, since they don't die that quickly late game the crowd control becomes more valuable in keeping them away long enough for La Borra or other weapons to delete them. For one Mannajja forms one of the best defensive barriers with either La Borra or Vespers, allowing you to sit and AFK at that point -- only moving to kite bosses in your death field. Early-Mid the slow barely has any value since enemies drop like flies to the damage of Song of Mana / Mannajja late game when the damage does fall off from higher DPS weapons the crowd control aspect of the slow shines in keeping things manageable. I don't feel it falls off for that reason, it simply trades off its value early-mid (DPS) for another aspect late game (crowd control) that is equally useful (while the damage does fall off it still does power creep Soul Eater and Bloody Tear -- two other defensive oriented tools).

I think making your point around needing assistance or a proper build that synergizes with the weapon is pretty moot when that is what you want to do if you're aiming for good runs to submit to the leaderboards. And mind you Mannajja has been a fairly consistent weapon in the leader boards if you've ever been paying attention to it:
https://vsleaderboard.azurewebsites.net/

Building around the top weapons is pretty much the bread and butter. If we're talking about the opportunity cost of building around the weapon itself isn't such a downside because the curse skull does benefit other builds in that it allows for more XP gains quicker -- along with higher kill count which again matters if you're aiming for leaderboards. And incidentally it is because it uses Skull as its upgrade material that does also lead to less opportunity cost since again you'd want max curse in the first place if you want higher stats overall.

[Blurry Eyes]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von anima132000:

Make no mistake I recognize the utility of Mannajja has high value and isn't represented in damage statistics. The weapon remains useful it is one of the top weapons in the game without a doubt. I was simply comparing the three most recent evolved weapons and pointing out the weakness and drawback to each. It is one of the easiest early game weapons to use, is phenomenal in the midgame, but the damage falls off in the late game. You can certainly build a strong combination around it and it remains one of the highest damage weapons in a run.

The point really wasn't that you need other weapons, that's a given. My point was that the weapon can only clear on it's own until around midrun, at which point the damage fall off becomes noticeable. It's not just that you need other weapons, you still need a competent build around it and that is still very relevant to the majority of players who aren't aiming to top leaderboards.

And yes I am aware maxing curse allows you to have statistically higher runs with potentially higher exp gains, I wouldn't really call that a benefit of the build it is still a drawback, just not a concerning factor if you are going for a leaderboard spot.

Somewhere lost in all this discussion was that this was in response to someone saying Song of Mana is completely OP and needs nerf. My point was to highlight the downsides of it and compare it to the two other recent OP weapons. It's strong, without a doubt but it's not some completely broken weapon, and certainly not anymore than our most recent addition.

[Swift_Talon]

the passive is the best part of her, and damage is far from the best stat. the weapons get out classed by more efficient ones and are honestly not worth taking, sure they do damage but let too many trash mobs through with their slow rotation speed. now building the guns on someone else with a passive that agrees with them, that is an option.

[Stanis23]

Pugnala pretty much outclassing everything atm still (outside of Christine for survival record due to cdr laurel lancet cheese)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFVs5O4a0gE
Like she out level Imelda (a char that is built for XP / level record), and pretty much out kill Lama because her damage is enough to blow through the extra curse.

Between having the best passive, two decent starting weapons and +20% move instead of any penalty she pretty much the top spot for everything now until they boost up others later

[Sharlatan]

no, she is definately op as hell.

The starting weapons are insane, so you level really quickly and easily, you have speed boost so you are much safer and can get xp gems faster, you have a passive that gets increasingly powerful based on your xp....

and the weapon evolve is mass screen wide aoe.....

the combination right off the bat is insane.

Whether thats an issue or not is the debate, should characters be roughly equal? or should they be different difficulties? I tend towards difference, this one is easymode. Stop pretending she isn't. But also no need to change it.

[Stardust]

to make record yes she's the best.

but she can't outperform poppea...with poppea i'am sure you can just run anymap only with mana song, rune tracer and his duration passive.

[Zunkin]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von phantom:

To be fair that one armor helps a lot early and whip can be a great weapon. That said yeah it is pretty unfair her passive is so much better than his.

Her passive is terrible in that it only has value if you use it and if you use it, her main weapons are crippled. I'm not complaining since I think this is actually a good way to balance her out, but I would rate the empty heart as a stronger accessory overall outside of niche builds such as when you are going after the reaper or gold farming.

The hollow heart isn't bad, particularly on a character with a large base HP pool and a whip as his starting weapon. The biggest threat to your survival in this game, once you have a viable means to heal yourself, is burst damage. The hollow heart will absorb those first few hits off the boss you didn't notice or that crowd of enemies you had to body check. Part of what makes the Bloody Tear such a good defensive weapon is the fact you need the hollow heart to evolve it. Once you add in an extra point of armor it makes Antonio surprisingly tough once he has his evolved whip.

[Causticplum]

I think you should A. start Pugnala with only one gun B make the other gun fire in the opposite firing pattern and C. take the limits off of other characters so that we can get real crazy