What's the deal with Ray's combat skills?

[Crosaith]

About 15 hours in. His attacks are slow, bland & basic compared to previous Star Ocean protags. Does he only get whats on his skill tree? Do attack animations improve as you level combat skills up or is it only damage?

[Xengre]

Messaggio originale di Tiasmoon:

Messaggio originale di Xengre:

Unfortunately, because of how the dmg scaling and AP system works in this game the two main characters don't benefit from unique combos... just spamming the highest efficient option. There is simply no meaningful reason to do some complex combos here with them.

There is some reason. Some moves have gapclosing effects. Some are faster to execute allowing you to avoid taking damage. There's the move that protects against projectiles.


Just like with Tales of Arise: the comboing is there, but its easy to resort to just using ''that one move'' that is too much better then the rest. That's one reason why I prefered playing Dohalim in that game since he didnt have any clear ''fast high damage'' moves but you had to make good combos or his moves would flow really poorly.

Besides, we dont always have to play ''the most efficient''. That is a player choice, too.

Kind of at first, yeah, the gap closing can help but ultimately it is, similar to Tales of Arise like you said.

It definitely has that whole "one move is clearly better than the others" and, ironically, if it knocks them back you can use a gap close combo to catch back up or get better and simply don't spam if you know they will fly and walk up to them recovering AP in the process and rinse repeat similar to a certain someone in Tales of Arise. It's a shame both games have a cool combo system that poor balance partially invalidates. Credit to Tales of Arise because theirs is more fleshed out at least since SO6's skills for the two main characters don't differentiate each other too much or are often too niche or problematic to even use.

Even when I opt to play inefficiently for the sake of combo/unique combat in this one I feel like the overall combo experience just becomes mind-numbing in this one since the combos are so consistently the same to the point they ought as well have stuck to the prior 2 skill systems but its a start in the right direction (if they ever make another game that is... >.<). It really makes me want to swap to another character just because the two MCs are so lackluster on this front while the other characters perform much better but I guess I can always main others another run. I'm glad, at least, they do in fact have other characters to shore up this weakness and they're decent to play.

[Hikari]

Raymond gets whats on his bored this is why I like playing as Albaird for now the way they made Raymond it feels like he was supposed to combo his attacks more with others that just my emotions on this

[Dongerino]

ray is slow and hard hitter, leticia fast multihits and decent damage. I love busting skulls with raymond abyssal gate 30k crits

[Elrodeus]

Messaggio originale di 0JMachine:

mirrrr blade is actually a bad skill...

I mean, I guess it's all subjective at the end of the day. My point still stands, I mirror bladed everything in the game to death after I got the skill. I still enjoyed the game, because combat was entertaining and the story and characters were fun.

I'm now playing the new Star Ocean, I'm still spamming a skill and I'm still enjoying the game because combat is entertaining and the story and characters are fun.

I'm sorry to hear some people don't like Ray's fighting style. Thankfully there are tons of other playable heroes in the game you can play if you don't enjoy him.

[The Waffle that Lurks]

Ah so I'm not the only one who unlocked Elena and immediately thought "Holy crap her skillset is soo good! Ray wth man!?"

[FafnirChaos]

Nothing wrong with the character, it's the player. Thus skill issue.

[cantseeshit]

Gotta set up his chain combos properly and he's pretty fast. Though once you get his final ability and make it lvl10 you can just spam that, lol. Does like 20k-30k damage with him only having 1400 atk.

[Rising Gale]

Messaggio originale di 은재:

your skill tree has several attacks on there, boulder crush and outrage are insanely powerful when upgraded even just to lvl 3

boulder crash is so busted just spamming it outpaces dimension door its kinda hilarious how much of an SP trap AP 5 skills are they seem to mostly be for positioning and aoe/crowd control they are terrible dps abilities lol.

[Nigrescence]

Messaggio originale di Elrodeus:

I'm sorry to hear some people don't like Ray's fighting style. Thankfully there are tons of other playable heroes in the game you can play if you don't enjoy him.

It's not even that people don't like his fighting style. What we don't like is that almost all of the skills are useless garbage.

[Elrodeus]

Messaggio originale di Rising Gale:

boulder crash is so busted just spamming it outpaces dimension door its kinda hilarious how much of an SP trap AP 5 skills are they seem to mostly be for positioning and aoe/crowd control they are terrible dps abilities lol.

I see people keep saying how great Boulder Crush is... (and don't get me wrong I like the skill and it's in my main Chain Combo) but I don't understand how you can say it outpaces Abyssal Gate (you called it Dimension Door but we both know it's the same skill). I've only just reached the Royal Capital last night but the highest I've seen my Boulder Crush hit is for 6k damage... I used Abyssal Gate and almost broke 11k. They're not even in the same ballpark together.

I was surprised when I seen it because if my memory serves me correctly I could have swore I had to craft weapons in previous SO games to break the 9k limit but apparently Abyssal Gate just doesn't give a f#<k.

Or maybe it's just been so long since I played the other SO's I'm misremembering the 9,999 limit.

Edit: Another note, Outrage is uninterruptable (unless you dodge out of it or purposefully cancel) and at this point it too outpaces Boulder Crush in total damage done in most scenarios.

There's definitely reasons to use other abilities that Ray has. If you hate using Boulder Crush that much just dump SP into another ability and delete it from your Combo chain. People already complain that the game is too easy I'm sure you won't miss it.

[Rising Gale]

Messaggio originale di Elrodeus:

Messaggio originale di Rising Gale:

boulder crash is so busted just spamming it outpaces dimension door its kinda hilarious how much of an SP trap AP 5 skills are they seem to mostly be for positioning and aoe/crowd control they are terrible dps abilities lol.

I see people keep saying how great Boulder Crush is... (and don't get me wrong I like the skill and it's in my main Chain Combo) but I don't understand how you can say it outpaces Abyssal Gate (you called it Dimension Door but we both know it's the same skill). I've only just reached the Royal Capital last night but the highest I've seen my Boulder Crush hit is for 6k damage... I used Abyssal Gate and almost broke 11k. They're not even in the same ballpark together.

I was surprised when I seen it because if my memory serves me correctly I could have swore I had to craft weapons in previous SO games to break the 9k limit but apparently Abyssal Gate just doesn't give a f#<k.

Or maybe it's just been so long since I played the other SO's I'm misremembering the 9,999 limit.

Edit: Another note, Outrage is uninterruptable (unless you dodge out of it or purposefully cancel) and at this point it too outpaces Boulder Crush in total damage done in most scenarios.

There's definitely reasons to use other abilities that Ray has. If you hate using Boulder Crush that much just dump SP into another ability and delete it from your Combo chain. People already complain that the game is too easy I'm sure you won't miss it.

I honestly don't like using outrage because it has an animation lock issue and its damage is worse than just mashing quick ripper or bell ringer 2 or 3 times with how often it misses in my opinion with no guard and a stacked accessory to make up for the passive slot wasted its far less risky and clunky.

[MegasonicZX]

Eh, you can cancel outrage after the third hit which you still get pretty good damage for all things considered. It being multi hit also makes it pretty good for juggles.

[Dogi ( ﾟ ヮﾟ)]

Like Ray said at the start of the game, he's basically swinging the sword like a bat. He's also a beefcake so slower swings that hit harder is just his playstyle. I'd suggest playing laeticia or Alby if you want somebody a bit faster or more combo heavy.

[Xengre]

Messaggio originale di Elrodeus:

Messaggio originale di Rising Gale:

boulder crash is so busted just spamming it outpaces dimension door its kinda hilarious how much of an SP trap AP 5 skills are they seem to mostly be for positioning and aoe/crowd control they are terrible dps abilities lol.

I see people keep saying how great Boulder Crush is... (and don't get me wrong I like the skill and it's in my main Chain Combo) but I don't understand how you can say it outpaces Abyssal Gate (you called it Dimension Door but we both know it's the same skill). I've only just reached the Royal Capital last night but the highest I've seen my Boulder Crush hit is for 6k damage... I used Abyssal Gate and almost broke 11k. They're not even in the same ballpark together.

I was surprised when I seen it because if my memory serves me correctly I could have swore I had to craft weapons in previous SO games to break the 9k limit but apparently Abyssal Gate just doesn't give a f#<k.

Or maybe it's just been so long since I played the other SO's I'm misremembering the 9,999 limit.

Edit: Another note, Outrage is uninterruptable (unless you dodge out of it or purposefully cancel) and at this point it too outpaces Boulder Crush in total damage done in most scenarios.

There's definitely reasons to use other abilities that Ray has. If you hate using Boulder Crush that much just dump SP into another ability and delete it from your Combo chain. People already complain that the game is too easy I'm sure you won't miss it.

You did not have to craft special weapons to break dmg limit in some (possibly any) prior SO games (at least not 3, and in 2/1 you couldn't bypass 9,999). SO4 and 5 I can't say because I've not played 5 and SO4 I quit a decent way in because the game truly sucked imo. You're most likely thinking of FFX though as you did have to craft dmg limit/hp limit breaking gear.

I don't have the SP to spare right now to check the exact values of each one maxed since I just dumped it in other stuff finally but looking at the two it seems the two skills should reach a Power (Normal) ATK of around Boulder Crush ~260 & Abyssal Gate ~620.

Based on this...

Power (Normal) ATK per point of AP:
Boulder Crush: 130
Abyssal Gate: 124

Boulder Crush edges out already winning here but lets look at how fast they can be spammed...

Animation time (from start when AP taken to next cast possible when AP taken):
Boulder Crush: 1s 716ms
Abyssal Gate: 3s 383ms

Abyssal Gate's time is a little more efficient per AP shoring up the difference. If you were to cast Boulder Crush 5x vs Abyssal Gate 2x you get the idea. This actually edges out Boulder Crush much later in the game when you can actually max it... without sacrificing performance for a good chunk of the game due to holding back points on Boulder Crush/elsewhere.

Last, Boulder Crush has some degree of aiming issues but Abyssal Gate is significantly worse if enemy moves too sharply or relocates outside your casting sight range (think you can target X arc area in front of where you are casting, similar to cone of vision for blindside) and once enemy steps beyond that cone Abyssal Gate has fairly significant issues hitting such a target.

Abyssal Gate is also prone to being staggered and thus casting it at point blank is often ineffective for much of the game until you have enough stagger resistance (even then it remains to be seen how much this helps against stronger enemies or post game as I haven't been able to test on them, esp at higher difficulties). Abyssal Gate also means you risk taking more dmg.

This means your odds of hitting is lower than Boulder Gate, it is worse against mobile enemies, it performs poorly for follow-up spam as a means of DPS except when airborn (becasue many enemies will miss you but if the target falls to ground/down state it will put you in hit zone again) as you can be knocked out of it or at worst take massive dmg/die during attempts to use it multiple times as a form of high DPS. None of these issues exist with Boulder Crash for the most part, or to be precise they can largely be learned to be negated as its slower nature imposes a much less severe form of these penalties.

Last, Abyssal Gate requires 5 AP and this means in order to cast it more than once in quick succession it is mandatory to have VA boosted. For short fights this is a fail. For longer fights this can cut into your DPS putting it further behind Boulder Crush among its other problems and at best put it just slightly behind Boulder crush, still, with its other issues. It also means Boulder Crush can put out a longer reliable string of attacks due to AP limitations in more scenarios.

The final nail in the coffin is Boulder Crush is one of Raymond's starting combat moves... and you can immediately upgrade it to around level 4-5 for pretty cheap, then focus on getting some other attack % upgrades in the skill tree and eventually come back to getting Boulder Crush maxed in the same time you can get rank 1 Abyssal gate... Even late/post game as shown Abyssal Gate, even with Elena's AP reduction buff, wont be much better in pure raw DPS in pretty much optimal situations but it will be less reliable producing overall less DPS in reality.

What Abyssal Crush does do is a minor AoE which in most fights is... going to hit one target. There are some setups where it can work though like with Alhbaid's Demon Gate (or w/e name is) right most skill that creates a gravity effect pulling mobs together or a rare case if you are lucky they crowd together close enough like I saw with the Edna gate robots fight.

The only situation I'm not accounting for because I haven't been able to test it (someone who has the gear feel free to clue us in) is whether casting rate reduction will impact normal combat skill animations like Abyssal Gate allowing it to cast much faster. If this is possible then Abyssal Gate with a proper setup could be insane but I'm doubtful this is possible until proven otherwise.

Messaggio originale di Rising Gale:

Messaggio originale di Elrodeus:

There's definitely reasons to use other abilities that Ray has. If you hate using Boulder Crush that much just dump SP into another ability and delete it from your Combo chain. People already complain that the game is too easy I'm sure you won't miss it.

I honestly don't like using outrage because it has an animation lock issue and its damage is worse than just mashing quick ripper or bell ringer 2 or 3 times with how often it misses in my opinion with no guard and a stacked accessory to make up for the passive slot wasted its far less risky and clunky.

Same complaint. I can't stand it due to that animation lock.

As for the down dmg move for increased dmg the move is so niche (maybe there is a way to get down effect really high later? but I've not seen it and does it even work on large enemies or bosses/super bosses?) and even with the down dmg boost the dmg is about par or worse than alternatives while being straight worse when target is not down making it really really bad... Even worse, you have to literally dedicate an entire button all 3 moves to it in order to benefit from spamming it when target is down otherwise its value is literally gone. Maybe with the right factors this could be sleeper OP for speedrunning bosses/super bosses later but I'm highly doubtful and it wouldn't be much better than alternatives anyways as already mentioned.

His kick into the wall move is even more niche for prior mentioned reasons but worse, and almost certainly doesn't work on anything other than smaller enemies/non-bosses while needing a rare wall around you in a game where this simply isn't common enough.

There are already 3 moves of his kit that are dumpster tier. The rest are pretty basic and bland while being too similar. At least Laeticia has some gap closing, AoE, and elemental variety, though it really isn't that much of a difference tbh.

Messaggio originale di MegasonicZX:

Eh, you can cancel outrage after the third hit which you still get pretty good damage for all things considered. It being multi hit also makes it pretty good for juggles.

Is it with the canceling combo move, aka sacrificing the animation of one move for the animation of another move plus extra AP spent? I couldn't find any other way to cancel it by moving/spamming dodge but haven't tried using the move that claims it can cancel for this purpose since it would be terribly moot.

[Rising Gale]

Honestly to me his kick into the wall move from what I try isn't really good either but unlike outrage it's at least able to knock enemies into the air so even if it does miss its good for cheesing humanoid bosses but outrage is misses so much even if you cancel it's animation it's not ever worth using to me and unlike the kick wall move it's not very good at breaking super armor so youre just getting hammered with ailments any situation where cheesing would be necessary like gabriel or ethereal queen and hell ethereal queen blindly flailing around trying to break her super armor is a bad idea anyways long animation moves cancelled or not are suicide since she loves to go zerk and summon clones who does the same wombo combo ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ lenneth did back in til the end of time but not hit as hard its just the scorch that kills you rather than the combo of the move itself lol, then again I was most likely under leveled with no scorch resist acessories and thats why scorch was so deadly haha.