advice for soviet air force?

[flyersfan18]

I am play full campaign on normal difficulty. (all sliders 100). Everything manual, no AI assistance.

In 1941 I used my air force aggressively, suffered some losses but was able to effectively slow the early blitz. AI was reluctant to use planes on offense. Long break during the winter, grounded for several months.

Am now in summer (july) 1942. Having a little success at times vs the axis minor allies air force. But it seems like every time I face the germans it is a turkey shoot. Is common to lose well over 100 planes in a single battle, and any time I get better then 20-1 losses it almost feels like a "win".

I only run ground support and try to get my units to around 58-60 experience before I release from reserve. Have had 5 or so air commanders sacked but do put my better commanders in the important sectors.

So is this just the way it goes in 1942, and I should just hope to gradually wear them down while suffering horrible losses, or am I missing something here? I have noted my moral will improve slightly in Apr 1943.

Feels like I am in fairly good shape for number of pilots and planes, but I am just throw them away for no real advantage. However, now starting to run out of experienced squads where my best units are starting to fall back to 55 exp level.

(all early models withdrawn for some time, using mostly Yak 1 and variants, Migs and a few Lagg 11 which I read elsewhere are inferior compared with first 2.)

[loki1006]

basically yes, the LW will win throughout 1942 and for most of 1943. As 1943 goes on, a combination of better training, better pianes, them being pulled west, will give you areas of local superiority.

In effect, you (and the Western Allies) have to take out that huge skill advantage the Germans start with, so every lost pilot is one off that group.

You're doing the reserve management so just make sure you send units that have just taken heavy losses off map as the inflow of low experience pilots so if an airgroup gets badly cut up be prepared to drop back into the reserve to train.

I reckon in 42/43 you can have about 40% of the VVS on the map, 40% in training and the balance shifting between the two.

One quirk to watch out for, don't disband low experience air groups - you get these in the reserve as the computer creates new AOG, if you do the pilots go into your trained pool and allocated out to the TPI formations. But letting new AOG train up on rubbish and then disbanding can get your TPI pools up so that at least those formations can stay on map as they absorb replacements.

this AAR is into late 1943 and may give you some ideas how we are both managing the air war and the sort of loss ratio triggered. But I'm (as the Axis) still winning most turns say 4-1

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4992932&mpage=15&#5148610

[HB]

Part of the problem is how to influence the run down the LW stocks of fuel, Germany stated the year with 220,000,000 (1) gallons of AVGAS in stock, its factories produced 326,000,000 (2), its expended 148,000,000 (3) in the first 6 months of the year and 307,000,000 (4) in the second 6 months as AH tried to knock the SU out.

Instead you have to fin un historic ways to defeat the LW when the AI plays it as its using different fuel availability stock levels, if it does your looking at 41 loss ratios staying in game far longer.

In game thats done it tons, so AVGAS income was 17,194,302 tons and expenditure was 14,328,584. Stock on hand by end of year, 2,865,718

Gallons into Tons.
(1) 6,928,107
(2) 10,266,195
(3) 4,660,726
(4) 9,667,858

[loki1006]

please - what is the relevance of all that?

[flyersfan18]

I did drop my percent of mission settings down, still losing planes but at least the total number killed per battle is now lower.

Going to hold even more tac bombers and level bombers back, no sense in throw them away right now.

So I am just send up a handful of fighters to contest things, again it just lowers the pace at which my pilots will get ground up.

Very seldom use ground support on the offense now. Sometimes I try it once just to test if they are contest that sector.

Thanks for tip on formations, I was consider break down those all but worthless night bombers but now I see they are switch over to IL-2s.

[loki1006]

this is a view from my current HtH, a vs AI Axis game and a couple of vs AI Soviet games, really my understanding of the air war in the transitional phase.

what hurts the Germans is sustained pressure, big pushes followed by a lull plays into their hands. Once their weekly losses go over their trained pilot allocation they either run down their effective strength or accept untrained pilots.

The VVS is set up for this, hence what you are doing about ongoing rotation etc, the LW isn't. Even 5-8 formations off map to regain experience is a hole that is hard to fill. That then escalates in that the Germans then don't have the numerical ratio they need and so on.

In my vs AI game, the Soviet AI won the air war over the winter 43-44, after that I had good weeks but I was always on the back foot and it did it by sustained pressure.

So while you can do neat things with the VVS like generate a small cluster of elite formations and so on, in the end its there for attrition. While GS can lead to disastrous losses, if you do deliver the Il-2s to target they shred the defenders, 2-300 in an attack is the end of all but the strongest stack in the best terrain.

[HB]

Originally posted by flyersfan18:

I did drop my percent of mission settings down, still losing planes but at least the total number killed per battle is now lower.

By 42 historically your looking to run c16000 sorties a week, c 850,000 sorties a year from 42 onwards, roughly three times the LW, as you have the AVGAS to do so,and the LW did not. One strategic aim is to get the AI fuel stocks to be used up so it has only what is produced to use.

In game this is easy to achieve as the LW AI is programmed to destroy itself over time in operational losses that will roughly equal what you inflict in combat ops, without your help, all you need to do is influence the rate it does so.

The more sorties the LW flies the more non operational losses it will incur. AI has almost no ability to limit the number of ftr sorties and number of air miles it incurs, and you can destroy the LW Ftr arm by making it fly by flying ops yourself, by using your massive advantage in human and material production, ie the VVS was designed to replace 100% losses every year as part of its strategic doctrine, and fly in all weathers, while the LW was not and good weather orientated, so you can influence the non operational losses by flying ops in weather that increases the AI losses, the more he puts up, the more he losses, weather increases that.

Originally posted by flyersfan18:

Going to hold even more tac bombers and level bombers back, no sense in throw them away right now.

They existed to be used, not held back, which was why c80% of the VVS was employed at the front just like your Armour, historically 96,000 Tanks will be lost along with 300k crew for them, from 410k trained crew for the war. Irrevocable armour losses being dependent on holding the ground, being roughly 6 times less if you held the ground fought over, flying the VVS in GS over friendly hexs will help influence that.

What the game does well as the SU is reward a player who plays as the Soviet system fought war, human and material assets were to be consumed at a rate the SU material advantages allowed over the Axis.

Looking at head to head game AAR is only going to give you non relevant data on how the AI plays, as players dont play as the AI plays, understanding how to defeat the AI means understanding how the AI operates the game sub systems and how you can use thosde same systems to your advantage.

Originally posted by flyersfan18:

Thanks for tip on formations, I was consider break down those all but worthless night bombers but now I see they are switch over to IL-2s.

c50% of VVS sorties in 42 were done by night.

[flyersfan18]

thanks for feedback - two different viewpoints. Will have to think things over.

I notice the AI (so far) tends to use ground support mostly but not exclusively on the defense. I would have been more pressed in 1941 had they used air units more aggressively.

[HB]

Originally posted by flyersfan18:

thanks for feedback - two different viewpoints. Will have to think things over.

I notice the AI (so far) tends to use ground support mostly but not exclusively on the defense. I would have been more pressed in 1941 had they used air units more aggressively.

Perspective is important, what your expecting to get out of the game is different from the perspective of game player who wants to win by beating the system, and your human opponent, than a history buff looking for a historical replay with plausible alt outcomes.

Using your night time example, by doctrine the SU was trained and expecting to fight by night as matter or course, in game if you find its more cost beneficent to ignore that doctrine and instead re purpose the assets to day time sorties, a history buff perspective is there is an issue of game balance, and an issue of changing/ignoring doctrine while a game player just thinks found the sweet spot.

[flyersfan18]

I found the results of the early night time bombers very underwhelming.

Perhaps I didnt figure out the right mission to assign.

Playing vs a human I could see a little more utility - but facing AI it felt like they were just crowd up my airfields. Also the (real life) time spent micromanage them seemed to outweigh any limited benefit. Game is quite long under any format.

A better player might have a different approach.

Agree with your comments though ( RE: different player types ) - I used my long range heavy bombers as close ground support early in the war - am quite sure that is not what they were designed to do. Still those heavy bomb loads cause an awful lot of disruptions.

[flyersfan18]

Just a follow up for anyone who is curious -

I ended up both decrease the mission percentage (from over 100 to less then 100) - and raised the minimum percent to fly to 60. (default is 20).

The final effect is I am still contest the first couple of incoming strikes (with smaller waves), but my formations are not getting completely annihilated so can then be rotated to reserve with some veteran pilots remaining.

Still losing lots of planes, but not the 100s per turn I was before I ask for advice.

[HB]

Originally posted by flyersfan18:

Just a follow up for anyone who is curious -

I ended up both decrease the mission percentage (from over 100 to less then 100) - and raised the minimum percent to fly to 60. (default is 20).

The final effect is I am still contest the first couple of incoming strikes (with smaller waves), but my formations are not getting completely annihilated so can then be rotated to reserve with some veteran pilots remaining.

Still losing lots of planes, but not the 100s per turn I was before I ask for advice.

How is your logistics reporting that compared to historical?.

Here is both sides historical consumption from "War over the Steppes The air campaigns on the Eastern Front 1941–45" by E Hooton.

Axis LW fuel consumption 1942
1,426,000 tonne.
SU VVS fuel consumption 1942
3,813,000 tonne.

In game SU a turn 73,326 tonne.


Axis LW fuel consumption 1943
1,825,000 tonne
SU VVS fuel consumption 1943
6,171,000 tonne

In game SU a turn 118,673 tonne.


Axis LW fuel consumption 1944
1,403,000 tonne
SU VVS fuel consumption 1944
7,168,000 tonne

In game SU a turn 137,846 tonne.

Originally posted by flyersfan18:

I used my long range heavy bombers as close ground support early in the war - am quite sure that is not what they were designed to do.

SU DBA were massacred in opening phase attempting deep raids, replacements came in of mostly shorter range assets, and it switched to close range ground support role and split its time doing both.

Hoorton
"The VVS’s army support mission would be reflected throughout the Great Patriotic War against Germany and her allies. From the beginning to the end of this conflict, nearly two-thirds of VVS sorties (63.44per cent) were at the Tactical Level either supporting the troops in the forward edge of the battle area (FEBA) or shielding them from air attack, while 5.52 per cent were spent striking Operational Level (operations for commands up to army group/ front headquarters)targets.
Another 14.62 per cent of sorties were escort missions, while 11.18 per cent were reconnaissance. DBA would also be diverted to Tactical Level air support, which accounted for 40.44 per cent of its sorties, while 45.80 per cent were Operational or Strategic Level attacks."

Originally posted by flyersfan18:

The final effect is I am still contest the first couple of incoming strikes (with smaller waves), but my formations are not getting completely annihilated so can then be rotated to reserve with some veteran pilots remaining.

VVS Guard units spent on average 59 days not at the front over the war.

[flyersfan18]

Originally posted by HB:

Originally posted by flyersfan18:

How is your logistics reporting that compared to historical?.

Here is both sides historical consumption from "War over the Steppes The air campaigns on the Eastern Front 1941–45" by E Hooton.

Axis LW fuel consumption 1942
1,426,000 tonne.
SU VVS fuel consumption 1942
3,813,000 tonne.

In game SU a turn 73,326 tonne.


Axis LW fuel consumption 1943
1,825,000 tonne
SU VVS fuel consumption 1943
6,171,000 tonne

In game SU a turn 118,673 tonne.


Axis LW fuel consumption 1944
1,403,000 tonne
SU VVS fuel consumption 1944
7,168,000 tonne

In game SU a turn 137,846 tonne.


************************************************************************


I see the report for total fuel consumed and fuel stock piles, but I dont know how to break out the air fuel from that used by ground units. I am curious now and was going to track for a month.

Also I do appreciate your historical information, you appear to be very knowledgeable about the eastern front. But every game takes on a life of its own, you had mentioned about all the long range bombers being destroyed, and I suspect that is exactly what would have happened had AI contest my attacks. However in my particular game the axis was very passive with air units in the opening blitz. I kept expect a surge of sorties that never occurred. However due to the very low production of the heavy 4 engine bombers, now in Sept 1942 I am starting to run dry - just from normal operation and flak activity.

I continue to rotate other air units in and out hoping to slowly grind down axis, now I am at best able to find exp 54 fighter formations. Before I was target 60 (ideal) but more likely 58s.

[HB]

Originally posted by flyersfan18:

I see the report for total fuel consumed and fuel stock piles, but I dont know how to break out the air fuel from that used by ground units. I am curious now and was going to track for a month.

Also I do appreciate your historical information, you appear to be very knowledgeable about the eastern front. But every game takes on a life of its own, you had mentioned about all the long range bombers being destroyed, and I suspect that is exactly what would have happened had AI contest my attacks. However in my particular game the axis was very passive with air units in the opening blitz. I kept expect a surge of sorties that never occurred. However due to the very low production of the heavy 4 engine bombers, now in Sept 1942 I am starting to run dry - just from normal operation and flak activity.

I continue to rotate other air units in and out hoping to slowly grind down axis, now I am at best able to find exp 54 fighter formations. Before I was target 60 (ideal) but more likely 58s.

Game has major issues with loss per sortie which is why your running out in 42, when it had a loss rate of 1 per 52 sorties, and replacing a minority of pilots inflicting the majority of losses in general, with the reverse.

Pe-8s were all made at Kazan factory 124, and Moscow factory 20 also did late war version.

I. Production of heavy bombers ANT-42/TB-7/Pe-8:

1936 - prototype
1938 - 2nd prototype
1939-1940 - 18 bombers (5 with 4xAM-34FRNV + central turbocharging engine, 9 with 4xAM-35, 2 with 4xAM-35A, 2 with 4xM-40).
1941 - 17 bombers (3 with 4xM-40F, 11 with 4xM-30, 3 with 4xAM-35A).
1942 - 20 bombers (2 with 4xASh-82, 16 with 4xAM-35A, 2 with 4xACh-30B).
1943 - 18 bombers (all with 4xASh-82)
1944 - 18 bombers (14 with 4xASh-82, 4 with 4xACh-30B)

Total: 93 bombers.

II. Losses of heavy bombers ANT-42/TB-7/Pe-8 during WWII:

1940 - 1 bomber (catastrophe)
1941 - 14 bombers (5 were heavily damaged/destroyed on the airfield during the first day of the war by German bombers 22.06.1941; 2 were knocked down by AA fire 11.08.1941 during the raid over Berlin; 7 crashed/damaged during catastrophes, failures and emergency landings [including 3 after the raid over Berlin 11.08.1941])
1942 - 12 bombers (9 crashed/damaged during catastrophes, failures and emergency landings, 2 were written off, 1 lost because of unknown reason).
1943 - 18 bombers (11 were knocked down [6 by German fighters, 1 by Soviet fighters, 4 by AA fire; including 4 over Orel 21-23.07.1943], 7 crashed/damaged during catastrophes, failures and emergency landings).
1944 - 8 bombers (6 were knocked down [2 by German fighters, 4 by AA fire; including 2 lost 28.06.1944], 2 crashed during catastrophes/failures).

Total: 53 bombers were lost, 40 survived the war.

If your really into this, i have the complete operational history and for for all 93 example.

22. No. 42035, Blue 3 – serial TB-7.
Engines: 4xM-40F diesels (1250-1500 hp), later 4xAM-35A (1200-1350 hp).
1st pilot – lieutenant Bidniy, later – major Kurban.
The bomber participated in the first raid of Soviet heavy bombers against Berlin 10.08.1941 – the left outer engine M-40F cought fire over the enemy territory but the crew could put out a fire and the bomber continued the flight with decreasing of altitude, bombs were dropped 370 km from Berlin because of strong decreasing of altitude and Pe-8 returned back (on the return trip another engine stopped and bomber landed on Obukhovo airfield instead of home airfield Pushkino).
The bomber was wrecked 27.06.1942 because of pilot’s mistake.

23. No. 42045, Blue 5 – serial TB-7.
Engines: 4xM-40F diesels (1250-1500 hp).
1st pilot – captain (later major) Tyagunin.
The bomber participated in the first raid of Soviet heavy bombers against Berlin 10.08.1941 – on the return trip one engine was stopped and in addition Soviet naval AA artillery shelled and hit the bomber over the Baltic Sea by mistake (bomber and 5 crewmembers were lost during the emergency wheels-up landing).

24. No. 42055, Blue 7 – serial TB-7.
Engines: 4xM-30 diesels (1250-1500 hp)
1st pilot – major Ugryumov (killed in action)
The bomber was built in summer 1941 (the single bomber with M-30 diesels in August 1941), participated in the first raid of Soviet heavy bombers against Berlin 10.08.1941 – during the raid unreliable diesels stopped several times at high altitude, the bomber bombed Berlin successfully and landed in Torzhok instead of home airfield Pushkino because of lack of fuel. That bomber made the most combat flights among diesel TB-7s by the end of 1941.
The bomber was lost in catastrophe 21.02.1942 during the landing on airfield of Kazan aircraft factory No 22 after the test flight (7 crewmembers were killed).

Also by end of war the formations flying them were beefed up ( through repair of damaged US assets left from shuttle operations ) by use of B17 B25 that the VVS than had which outnumbered their PE 8s, see https://airpages.ru/eng/uk/b17su.shtml

[HB]

Access to Russian Defence Archives are now closed, but i did get this before it did so.
TB-7 numbers Date/in service.
22.06.1941 - 9
01.10.1941 - 14
18.03.1942 - 11
01.05.1942 - 16
18.11.1942 - 14
01.07.1943 - 18
01.01.1944 - 20
01.06.1944 - 30
01.05.1945 - 31
10.05.1945 - 32

For History fans, as i kinda like it:
August 7 1941,V V Talaikhin, rammed a LW plan and brought it down, he did so 4 more times by Oct 27 and became an ace.

[HB]

From statistical digest "Soviet aviation in the Great Patriotic War in numbers"
Combat Sorties.
1941 - 459221
1942 - 852691
1943 - 885416
1944 - 993050
1945 (up to May) - 617758

"Thunder in the East The Nazi-Soviet War 1941-1945" Table 7 by Evan Mawdsley ( does not include the c6000 rising to c15000 training A/C late war, but does include any loss in training which was c1100 a year in peactime.)
Total combat A/C aviable
1941 29000
1942 33000
1943 55000
1944 68100
1945 58300

Combat losses
1941 10300
1942 7800
1943 11200
1944 9700
1945 4100

Non combat losses
1941 7600
1942 4300
1943 11300
1944 15100
1945 6900


So VVS combat loss per sortie by year is:
1941 45
1942 109
1943 79
1944 102
1945 151


Game usses combat and non combat, another to look at that is to look at losses over time, so combat and non combat losses over a day/week on average.

Combat and non combat combined loss per week
1941 688
1942 232
1943 431
1944 475
1945 210

Combat loss per week.
1941 396
1942 82
1943 216
1944 289
1945 132