They joined the Make Vader Weak club.

[OgamiGoro]

Seems that Nu-Star Wars, aka: Disney Star Wars under their Dear Leader KK, loves making their established male characters worthless, and that includes Darth Vader.

SPOILERS AHEAD










He should've finished Cere off in the most brutal way possible. His hatred for her drove him to B-line it to Jedha at the mere mention of her name. It was inevitable that he'd win that rematch, but did they really have to have him limp away weakly, leaving her still alive and still standing? You're telling me we watched Cal, even before he went Dark Side, finish off his vanquished foes and even behead them, but Vader wouldn't do the same for a foe he despised? He should've Force Choked her out. He should've cut her in half (off-screen and implied, of course). Instead, he limps away like a whipped dog, letting her stand there, not even bleeding out but slowly dying after RUNNER HER THROUGH, a "finisher" we know isn't a finisher in Star Wars canon.

Pathetic.

[lowmagnet]

He's got plot armor, canon armor, and that's the reason he shouldn't be included in games. It's not fun. You know he wins.

[OgamiGoro]

Originally posted by lowmagnet:

He's got plot armor, canon armor, and that's the reason he shouldn't be included in games. It's not fun. You know he wins.

Of course he wins, but did they have to make him look like a whipped dog?

Why not have Cere piss in his mouth on the way out?

And speaking of "shouldn't be in the game," the entire High Republic nonsense shouldn't have been in the game either, but we're way past "shouldn't be in the game" at this point.

[Helifax]

I think it was executed great!
Vader's best weapon is fear and intimidation, but when that fails, he likes to play with the victims and giving them the impression they can win. And then he does the unexpected (or expected). For him pain, suffering is the way to live.
I think Respawn understood this very well and in the game you get the so bold to think you can kill him. So... we know the rest of the cinematic.
In the end.. no one can actually kill Anakin Skywalker ;)
Of course he wins.. that is not the idea.. the way he wins and the false sense of beingg able to best him is what matters. This is showed over and over again in the Star Wars universe.

So, I think they nailed him! Difficult? Yes, but not invincible? Yes! And when you think you won, BAM think again ;)

[OgamiGoro]

Originally posted by Helifax:

I think it was executed great!
So, I think they nailed him! Difficult? Yes, but not invincible? Yes! And when you think you won, BAM think again ;)

What are you even talking about? I'm not talking about the encounter, I'm talking about the cinematic at the end. The fact is, Vader is supposed to be the most feared and deadly Sith in the galaxy, save for the Emperor himself. He took on the entire Jedi Temple and slew all of them. The fact that someone like Cere, who is strong and could put up a good fight, at least long enough to buy her friends enough time to escape, could leave him in such a sad, pathetic state is unacceptable. And the fact that he doesn't hate her enough to make an example of her is also out of character.

You're using words you don't know the meanings of.

[Diamond Knight]

Isn't Vadar's reputation mostly fear and imperial propoganda? Part of the reason why he is so effective is that his enemies, including jedi, feared him.

He had a bunch of help from the 501st to clear the jedi temple. Many of jedi were killed fighting clones only. So either the jedi in the temple suck or the clones are really good at kiling jedi. It's not a huge combat achievement for him whichever the case. Unless there's a source somewhere that says he goes to certain parts of the temple solo to kill jedi himself who have not been worn down by clones to prove otherwise.

[Geist]

It's okay when Starkiller does it. And that's not even what happened anyway.

[CJM]

I don't believe they made Vader worthless. On the first pass the sequence seems unnecessary, however, in hindsight I wonder what story is being told by the sequence of events.

The first Star Wars is about a serial film series like Flash Gordon. You have light vs dark, good vs evil. The bad guys wear masks/helmets to dehumanize them.

The key twist of Empire Strikes Back is that Vader is Luke's father, Anakin Skywalker. The humanization of Vader is an important part of the Star Wars saga.

Personally, I tie the battle between Vader and Cere to the battle between Cal and Merrin (Cal's heart).

Edit: Vader symbolizes two things, 1. Oppressive Order, and 2. Vengeance for the death of Padme which is possibly a result of an "oppressive order".

Either Cere is a rebel, and never stood a chance. Or Cere is oppressive order, and subject to Vader's vengeance.

[LoveTruffle]

Vader got wrecked like a punk, what a loser lol

[OgamiGoro]

Originally posted by Diamond Knight:

Isn't Vadar's reputation mostly fear and imperial propoganda?

No. According to canon, whether I liked the prequels or not, Anakin was the Chosen One. He was naturally supremely talented in the Force, and he was a masterful fighter; "The best pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior."

This was why he was able to wreck the Jedi of the Temple. You won't convince me that a platoon of Stormtroopers did most of the work.

The fact that you see Vader as weak and only a product of propaganda just proves you're also part of the Make Vader Weak Club. Well done.

[OgamiGoro]

Originally posted by CJM:

The first Star Wars is about a serial film series like Flash Gordon.... [/i]

To quote Aslan: Do not recite the old magic to me...I was there when it was written.

You're correct, Cere never stood a chance, and she was strong enough to put up a decent fight and buy her friends time, which to the actor's credit she put across nicely.

My problem is that when Vader beat her, he beat her...but just barely. Limping away like it could've gone either way. That shouldn't have happened. He should've beaten her, and then either Force Choked her to death, or beheaded her, or SOMETHING, anything to make an example of her.

That's what a villain who "uses fear and intimidation" would do.

By taking that edge away from him, they made him look weak. Terrible.

[Helifax]

Originally posted by OgamiGoro:

Originally posted by Helifax:

I think it was executed great!
So, I think they nailed him! Difficult? Yes, but not invincible? Yes! And when you think you won, BAM think again ;)

What are you even talking about? I'm not talking about the encounter, I'm talking about the cinematic at the end. The fact is, Vader is supposed to be the most feared and deadly Sith in the galaxy, save for the Emperor himself. He took on the entire Jedi Temple and slew all of them. The fact that someone like Cere, who is strong and could put up a good fight, at least long enough to buy her friends enough time to escape, could leave him in such a sad, pathetic state is unacceptable. And the fact that he doesn't hate her enough to make an example of her is also out of character.

You're using words you don't know the meanings of.

I already explained the cinematic.. He enjoys pain and most importantly BEING in pain! We can debate all day long, but Pain & Suffering is all that he has left (hence the bulky costume he wears and did not want to change that - look in the Extended Universe, even if not Canon whatever now).
Cere's fight and encounter proves just that.. that once she doesn't fear him he is not immortal and can be killed. This is an error on his part, but if you actually understand the cinematic, he is just a bit weaken. He stumbles a bit and then he walks normally away. This proves that all that Cere did was just o burn his armor and nothing more. I don't think it shows he is weak, just that he is willing to go to any length to kill the Jedi and he embraces the suffering as it makes him stronger as a true Sith would!

[AshlynOne]

Originally posted by OgamiGoro:

Originally posted by Diamond Knight:

Isn't Vadar's reputation mostly fear and imperial propoganda?

No. According to canon, whether I liked the prequels or not, Anakin was the Chosen One. He was naturally supremely talented in the Force, and he was a masterful fighter; "The best pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior."

This was why he was able to wreck the Jedi of the Temple. You won't convince me that a platoon of Stormtroopers did most of the work.

The fact that you see Vader as weak and only a product of propaganda just proves you're also part of the Make Vader Weak Club. Well done.

This is the worst take I've ever heard. You put Vader on a huge pedestal that proves **you** don't know the source material.

That whole Chosen One schtick is decried by the authors and characters of the setting themselves. It was a self-fulfilling prophecy, as explained by Lucas himself, because it could've been applied to ANY strong force sensitive trained after childhood and attachments were formed outside the Jedi Order.

It's not even the first time it's happened IN the setting. Anakin is not actually some Chosen One, a bunch of people just put a mantle and a weight on a kid's shoulders, taught him how to be superhuman and didn't focus enough on his shortcomings while a bad guy whispered in his ear because he could tell the kid had potential, both for violence and darkness and for power.

The role could've been filled by a billion other characters throughout the setting and has been time and time again.

The important thing is that they showed that what makes Vader so damned impressive is that he can beat insanely powerful Jedi like Cere and such.


Also, you're just dead wrong about the Jedi Temple, thing. The majority of the Jedi in the temple practiced Niman, which is also the same form practiced by most of the Jedi who went to war on Genosis, all of which who practiced Niman died because it was such a terrible form for actual combat. So, no, not only did Anakin have help from the clone troopers, he was fighting them with Djem So. It's the equivalent of an MMA fighter walking into a library and knocking books out of nerds hands and punching them in the face. Djem So is a very powerful and aggressive combat style that puts Niman users in the dirt easily.

He was using one of the two most aggressive and useful styles for combat against the "Scholar's choice" style. The one used more for spirituality and neutrality and perfection of the self than for actual combat. A better comparison would be Tai Chi versus kickboxing. (I know that the version of Tai Chi we see is not the actual self defense version, but you get my point.)

TL;DR No, Vader isn't special, he doesn't belong on a pedestal, he's not even remotely the strongest Force user in the Star Wars setting. He's actually quite mid. He's just one of the strongest at the time, and even then not by a wide margin. So it's not absurd that he had a close fight with Cere, it's just telling that Cere was no pushover either. He's just upper middle class and she's middle class.

Also, your optics wouldn't look as bad if you weren't weird about it being "male established characters being made to look weak" as if their sex has any impact on it being bad that they look weak.

[AshlynOne]

If you want to talk about actually powerful and impressive Sith look at Nihlus, Plageius, Malgus, Ragnos, Bane, hell even Exar Kun, Treya, and Revan are way stronger than Vader ever was.

[OgamiGoro]

Originally posted by Ashen One:

If you want to talk about actually powerful and impressive Sith look at Nihlus, Plageius, Malgus, Ragnos, Bane, hell even Exar Kun, Treya, and Revan are way stronger than Vader ever was.

None of them exist during the events of Star Wars. Let's stay focused.

[OgamiGoro]

@AshenOne: You're only confirming what I already said: You're part of the Make Vader Weak Club. I got it, "let the past die, kill it if you have to." That's your "schtick." You don't have to keep selling it, you've already shown what side you're on.

Screw Vader. Make him limp around like a lame, limp-wristed duck. Piss in his mouth while you're at it. That's what you're about.

You must be happy as a clam.