A question for the defenders

[Sibelius]

How do you feel about race and gender swaps in movies and TV shows?

It has been established that Henry was a fixed, straight protagonist in KCD 1 .Do you feel the sexuality swap of Henry to bisexual or gay is any different or more acceptable?

Discuss.

Edit: Adding the links that prove Henry was a fixed protagonist, a lot of the replies seem to forget this.

https://imgur.com/a/WArpoMt

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1771300/discussions/0/507318484016912609/

[Tlaz]

Nguyên văn bởi DeadPhoenix:

Nguyên văn bởi Колбаска:

Good evening. As far as I remember, are you a player who has already played the second part? You say that Musa is a storehouse of different stories. But wouldn't an Arab be the same? Wouldn't the Khan who escaped from the golden Horde be the same? After all, you can prescribe such things to anyone, can't you?

I didn't played the game, but i spoke personally about Musa with people who already did.
Will not share much details, so i will only confirm what was basically already confirmed by officials.

Musa is Medic and scholar in inner part of Sigismund army camp. He share his story with Henry, if Henry ask him to. He also share his worldviews, but those are historically and culturally accurate. Muslím believe to this day, that they are supperior culture, and better to women (as they guard their chastity) You as Henry can easilly call him out.

There is one curious quest i am well aware including him. I don't know exact details, but there had been crime commited, and Musa is main suspect generally just because he is Muslim, black, and well. not really liked for that. Sigismund is apparently only person fond of him really. You as Henry have to solve that crime, and you will find out (if you will do the quest correctly) that Musa is innocent. But even with that knowledge, you can let Musa to be punished, apparently being executed.

Reason Why Malian and not an Ottoman. - I see two main reasons. First is, because Ottomans were generally enemies of Eurpe, while Mali was just kingdom of Muslim religion known for its gold. There was no such open antagony as with muslims. Second reason why Malian is paradoxly because Ottomans are arabians. Malians were black. You can look at this as forced inclusion, I look at it as genial story piece which will spark many interesting scenarios and situations. Czechs in Bohemia were aware that muslims and arabians exists. But an black person? That would be true curiosity in their eyes.

If you wanna show conflict of civilisation, and cultural exchange in your historical fiction game, having Black Malian works actually much better than Arabian Ottoman. Same with golden Hordes. They were well known in Europe. Cumans aren't that different from Golden Hordes to be honest.

How could this be historically accurate when there is no trace of Malians or people with dark skin, not only in Bohemia but also in all of Central Europe in the 15th century, unless the game takes us to the Mediterranean shores... even the excuse of the city burning doesn't work to make it a historically probable possibility.

[Dastian]

Henry is not gay, he is just a character in a video game, YOU DECIDE his narrative and orientation, if you play with his gay romance the character is not gay, you are because you chose that step, like in real life...

[LaughingJoker4479]

I feel like woke should come up with games they can force their messages.
Not butt into others worlds to force it upon those who it mite offend.. I don't like how it's okay for one side to offend and not have back lash but if it's the other way we are evil you don't want to be forced upon in my beliefs why do you have the free pass? Like what their doing to Warhammer instead of adding to the world they wanna take it over feels like a WW2 believe what I say or I'll take everything that makes you, you

[DeadPhoenix]

Nguyên văn bởi Tlaz:

How could this be historically accurate when there is no trace of Malians or people with dark skin, not only in Bohemia but also in all of Central Europe in the 15th century, unless the game takes us to the Mediterranean shores... even the excuse of the city burning doesn't work to make it a historically probable possibility.

It is historically plausible, considering Subsaharian golden trade routes, and Sigismund travels around europe.

This video explain it best:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPnrCCfQPI8

[Sibelius]

Nguyên văn bởi Geeks On Hugs:

Nguyên văn bởi Sibelius:

How do you feel about race and gender swaps in movies and TV shows?

I love it when it increases representation. I’m a huge Trekkie and Lt. Kyle went from blonde and British in The Original Series to a black haired guy of Asian ancestry in Strange New Worlds and Admiral April went from white in The Animated Series to black also in SNW.

I love both changes. The 1960s and 70s had very poor representation as the vast majority of characters, especially named characters, were white males. Representation is important and these were both excellent changes.

That said, this is absolutely not what has happened in KCD 2.

It has been established that Henry was a fixed, straight protagonist in KCD 1 .Do you feel the sexuality swap of Henry to bisexual or gay is any different or more acceptable?

As a proudly “woke” person this whole controversy is hilarious to me. Vavra is far, Far, FAR closer to one of you guys. Perhaps he’s quite a bit less provincial and a lot more aware than you but he is certainly not one of mine. But to see you sensitive snowflakes take a game dev as close to you as you’re ever gonna get and throw him under the bus for the most insignificant reasons sure has been a hoot and a holler!

Discuss.

I sure have enjoyed laughing at the ridiculous and bizarre fits of regressed and backwards racists and homophobes. Tomorrow I get to play the game and will certainly spend less time with that. But please don’t stop. It’s been a gas!

I agree 60s and 70s had terrible representation, have you seen Alec Guinness in black face in Lawrence of Arabia? Terrible, just terrible. Please see my post earlier in the thread where I mention that I only engage with authentic entertainment where they have people of the appropriate nationality speaking the appropriate language.

In response to the point 'Vavra is far, Far, FAR closer to one of you guys.', nothing could be further from the truth. I have more respect for Corrine Busch and Matt Hanson than I do for Vavra. They were open and honest about the content of their game, they didn't try to smuggle it in and get outed by the Saudi censorship board. Sticking to your principles is more admirable to me than having the right principles (or none as in Vavra's case).

[Belyth]

Since I won't be playing this, I do literally no care, they can make him a polar bear for all I care

[Iluvcheezcake]

As the person above said already, Busche guy and that lumberjack wannabe cosplayer were at least upfront about it (and then reaped the whirlwind).

Vavra first tried to hide it and once he got outed by Saudi Arabia of all countries (wtf) he got all weasely about it and started attacking and gaslighting people.
Thats just weak. And people voting with their wallets because of that is not suprising.

[Shrieky]

It makes me happy that it makes you mad. Get mad, loser.

[Mr. Bigfootus]

I am greatly enjoying people getting so mad about choice in a game, please keep crying about it.

[Tlaz]

Nguyên văn bởi DeadPhoenix:

Nguyên văn bởi Tlaz:

How could this be historically accurate when there is no trace of Malians or people with dark skin, not only in Bohemia but also in all of Central Europe in the 15th century, unless the game takes us to the Mediterranean shores... even the excuse of the city burning doesn't work to make it a historically probable possibility.

It is historically plausible, considering Subsaharian golden trade routes, and Sigismund travels around europe.

This video explain it best:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPnrCCfQPI8

No, this is not historically plausible. 15th-century Europe was sufficiently literate to be well-documented and even the loss of a record cannot explain the absence of mention of such a remarkable person as the first Black African they would have encountered. In all other parts of Europe, even the least visible Black slaves were recorded in archives. The fact that there is no trace of such a person in Bohemia or Central Europe at that time more plausibly suggests that there were none.

[Sibelius]

Nguyên văn bởi Tlaz:

Nguyên văn bởi DeadPhoenix:

It is historically plausible, considering Subsaharian golden trade routes, and Sigismund travels around europe.

This video explain it best:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPnrCCfQPI8

No, this is not historically plausible. 15th-century Europe was sufficiently literate to be well-documented and even the loss of a record cannot explain the absence of mention of such a remarkable person as the first Black African they would have encountered. In all other parts of Europe, even the least visible Black slaves were recorded in archives. The fact that there is no trace of such a person in Bohemia or Central Europe at that time more plausibly suggests that there were none.

As confirmed by Vavra in 2015, before he sold out to Embracer and compromised his vision of authenticity..

[Колбаска]

Nguyên văn bởi DeadPhoenix:

Nguyên văn bởi Колбаска:

Good evening. As far as I remember, are you a player who has already played the second part? You say that Musa is a storehouse of different stories. But wouldn't an Arab be the same? Wouldn't the Khan who escaped from the golden Horde be the same? After all, you can prescribe such things to anyone, can't you?

I didn't played the game, but i spoke personally about Musa with people who already did.
Will not share much details, so i will only confirm what was basically already confirmed by officials.

Musa is Medic and scholar in inner part of Sigismund army camp. He share his story with Henry, if Henry ask him to. He also share his worldviews, but those are historically and culturally accurate. Muslím believe to this day, that they are supperior culture, and better to women (as they guard their chastity) You as Henry can easilly call him out.

There is one curious quest i am well aware including him. I don't know exact details, but there had been crime commited, and Musa is main suspect generally just because he is Muslim, black, and well. not really liked for that. Sigismund is apparently only person fond of him really. You as Henry have to solve that crime, and you will find out (if you will do the quest correctly) that Musa is innocent. But even with that knowledge, you can let Musa to be punished, apparently being executed.

Reason Why Malian and not an Ottoman. - I see two main reasons. First is, because Ottomans were generally enemies of Eurpe, while Mali was just kingdom of Muslim religion known for its gold. There was no such open antagony as with muslims. Second reason why Malian is paradoxly because Ottomans are arabians. Malians were black. You can look at this as forced inclusion, I look at it as genial story piece which will spark many interesting scenarios and situations. Czechs in Bohemia were aware that muslims and arabians exists. But an black person? That would be true curiosity in their eyes.

If you wanna show conflict of civilisation, and cultural exchange in your historical fiction game, having Black Malian works actually much better than Arabian Ottoman. Same with golden Hordes. They were well known in Europe. Cumans aren't that different from Golden Hordes to be honest.

Thank you for the detailed answer, I am very pleased that you talk in such detail about gyra. I would not say that the Polovtsians were the same, but I agree in the similarity. Just because of the collapse of the golden horde, a khan who was used to submission and servility but had to flee could be an interesting spy, including for one of the additions. Well, you have to admit, then there would have been much less talk about woke. Also, one of the reasons for such a negative reaction is the rumor that Musa cannot be killed. In my opinion, it could have been easily prevented without any spoilers, which you have now done.


And what would you say about Henry's branch with a man? Was she there for artistic perception too? I'll remind you why everyone is so indignant.

That's because Henry, unlike the nameless characters created in other games, has his own story and is integrated into the world. He's the son of a blacksmith, he practically had a fiancee who died. He can sleep with several girls in the game and have a long-term relationship with Teresa. He didn't give any reason to doubt his orientation at least once, and the developers also said that he had a normal orientation. It was never said anywhere that he was bi. The actions of the second part begin almost immediately after the end of the first, and it simply cannot change in such a short period of time.

If it was necessary to show such a relationship, then why not just make a separate quest when Henry meets either a condemned man or an escaped prisoner and you start playing the quest on behalf of this person. This technique was found in many games and it worked well. The same third witcher and the whole story of Ciri.

[Hardwater]

Nguyên văn bởi DeadPhoenix:

you can kill the black guy in game

Can you kill the retconned version of Hans now that he is gay? If no = game woke. If yes = game not woke.

[DeadPhoenix]

Nguyên văn bởi Колбаска:

Nguyên văn bởi DeadPhoenix:

I didn't played the game, but i spoke personally about Musa with people who already did.
Will not share much details, so i will only confirm what was basically already confirmed by officials.

Musa is Medic and scholar in inner part of Sigismund army camp. He share his story with Henry, if Henry ask him to. He also share his worldviews, but those are historically and culturally accurate. Muslím believe to this day, that they are supperior culture, and better to women (as they guard their chastity) You as Henry can easilly call him out.

There is one curious quest i am well aware including him. I don't know exact details, but there had been crime commited, and Musa is main suspect generally just because he is Muslim, black, and well. not really liked for that. Sigismund is apparently only person fond of him really. You as Henry have to solve that crime, and you will find out (if you will do the quest correctly) that Musa is innocent. But even with that knowledge, you can let Musa to be punished, apparently being executed.

Reason Why Malian and not an Ottoman. - I see two main reasons. First is, because Ottomans were generally enemies of Eurpe, while Mali was just kingdom of Muslim religion known for its gold. There was no such open antagony as with muslims. Second reason why Malian is paradoxly because Ottomans are arabians. Malians were black. You can look at this as forced inclusion, I look at it as genial story piece which will spark many interesting scenarios and situations. Czechs in Bohemia were aware that muslims and arabians exists. But an black person? That would be true curiosity in their eyes.

If you wanna show conflict of civilisation, and cultural exchange in your historical fiction game, having Black Malian works actually much better than Arabian Ottoman. Same with golden Hordes. They were well known in Europe. Cumans aren't that different from Golden Hordes to be honest.

Thank you for the detailed answer, I am very pleased that you talk in such detail about gyra. I would not say that the Polovtsians were the same, but I agree in the similarity. Just because of the collapse of the golden horde, a khan who was used to submission and servility but had to flee could be an interesting spy, including for one of the additions. Well, you have to admit, then there would have been much less talk about woke. Also, one of the reasons for such a negative reaction is the rumor that Musa cannot be killed. In my opinion, it could have been easily prevented without any spoilers, which you have now done.


And what would you say about Henry's branch with a man? Was she there for artistic perception too? I'll remind you why everyone is so indignant.

That's because Henry, unlike the nameless characters created in other games, has his own story and is integrated into the world. He's the son of a blacksmith, he practically had a fiancee who died. He can sleep with several girls in the game and have a long-term relationship with Teresa. He didn't give any reason to doubt his orientation at least once, and the developers also said that he had a normal orientation. It was never said anywhere that he was bi. The actions of the second part begin almost immediately after the end of the first, and it simply cannot change in such a short period of time.

If it was necessary to show such a relationship, then why not just make a separate quest when Henry meets either a condemned man or an escaped prisoner and you start playing the quest on behalf of this person. This technique was found in many games and it worked well. The same third witcher and the whole story of Ciri.

The whole point of the same sex romance is, that there are multiple occassion, where player can react, you would say "out of character" but if you will do it many time in story, the character will progressivly undergo an character development that gives you a chance pursue one specific same sex ralation if you want it, and it doesn't feel out of character, because you as player builded Henry story to this point. Ths option will not appear, if you will not undergo such development first.

Thing is, that there is major logic flaw with saying "as soon as there is option to be gay, Henry is already considering it" That simply isn't true, because you as player decide what Henry think and want.

Lets change it to different perspective. How about killing NPCs? You can kill all the villagers, women, men, animals etc. Does this possibility make Henry psychopat, who thinks about it even if not doing it? From my point of view no. If you will play Henry as chivarlious knight, he will think about being a knight, not an mass murderer.

What i am trying to say, There is no CANON henry. But there are two (and many more) ways you can shape your Henry to be.

Either, you will continue playing him asi village lad, enjoying presence of women, drinking, gamling etc.

Or, YOU will start feeling inclination to try something different for once, and with your gameplay, even Henry will undergo such character development.

In the End, Past, Present, and Future of gaming character doesnt work like in real world does. You as "omnipressent" player, decide not just what will Henry do in future, but also what he did and thought in the pass. By choosing sleeping with women in first game, being with Theresa etc. You already created your canon. Second game will not change it, if you don't want it to be changed.

[DeadPhoenix]

Nguyên văn bởi Hardwater:

Nguyên văn bởi DeadPhoenix:

you can kill the black guy in game

Can you kill the retconned version of Hans now that he is gay? If no = game woke. If yes = game not woke.

Already answered this in my last post.

People are thinking about game as it would be real world. But that esentially isn't true. The game is made to change as you want. Characters, not just your characters, but also NPCs change asi you want them to.

By your playing, you influence past, present and future of characters. You influence what they want, and what they think. All in name of serving to the player.

If you have a game, where you can technically date evey character in game, It doesn't mean every character is bisexual. They can have their canon sexuality, but if the game want player have more option, character canon sexuality can change for the player. To enjoy the game more.

Not sure how to describe it better.
Player in game is reality changing entity. Simply by walking around, you change world around you. So if player want to date straight character, in RPGs he is often able to change that character sexuality.
It is game, not real life.

In my game. Henry will not have any bisexual tendencies, same as other male companions will not have them. That will be canon of my game, same as for many people Theresa is canon love interest in first game.