Combat vs Multiple Enemies in KCD2 looks too dumbed down.

[Yoshitsune]

I came across a couple of early review vids featuring combat (link to one of them right below):

https://youtu.be/Sj_uhA7nA9I?t=41

What i noticed was that the enemies were EXTREMELY passive compared to KCD1.

In KCD1 in this situation half of that group would be immediately trying to flank you and the attacks would be coming in at a realistic relentless pace. In this example of KCD2 1 vs Many combat they are reacting like it's an Assassin's Creed game... each enemy patiently waiting his turn with the rare attack from the back or guy with missile weapon shooting from somewhere.

Now don't get me wrong there was room for improvement in 1 vs Many combat but the agressiveness and flanking AI isn't the correct way to go about it imho since it dumbs down the game too much. In my opinion 2 simple things would fix almost 90% of what was considered problematic about 1 vs Many in KCD.

1) Fix soft lock switching mechanics so it's way more manageable and 2) Reduce the animation lock time from tackles.

No need to alter the AI aggressiveness or tactics. In this way combat vs many will still be chaotic, dangerous and challenging like it was in KCD but players won't feel like they re struggling against the mechanics instead of the actual enemies.

I hope the devs reconsider this approach or i at least hope that HARDCORE mode features a way more aggressive AI with more active tactics.

[Actalo]

I'm in agreement with you. When I first saw videos of KCD2's combat I was really disappointed they got rid of the directional thrust and made combat accessible to smooth-brains. Why would I slash at a dude's helmet if his face is exposed and I can thrust?

Enemies fight you like you're a movie's main character: each politely waiting their turn, it's terrible. If you were attacked by three men, they would attack all at once, knowing you can't cover all sides - the combat is counter-intuitive.

For sure, day 1, I'mma dissect the game and mod it... not playing this easy-mode slop. I just hope the file structure and file names are the same as KCd cause it's a pretty easy fix. KCd has enemy behavior down to changing numerical values - like attack intervals, delay attack based upon number of enemies, weighted values determining how often they favor block, dodge, MS, perfect block, riposte, etc.. essentially the game handicaps itself because we suck.

Edit: There was a mod I used for KCD called Better Combat, completely changed the game for me. Taught me a lot about how KCD's combat works and proved a useful tool to learn to mod on my own.

[smoketrees]

I hope they'll be a lot more aggressive in Hardcore mode. Everything i've seen it does indeed look as if it's been tuned for people that have 1 hand.

[Riepah]

Until now I honestly hadn't watched any gameplay footage, but yeah, that minute I watched didn't seem terribly impressive.

[TheOneAndOnlyJJ]

As someone who practices HEMA and has had to duel against multiple opponents:

The first game (although clunky) really accurately portrays the way you get assaulted from all sides. You HAVE to keep walking back; otherwise, they will surround you!!
Nobody is waiting their turn! I hope Hardcore fixes this.

[Dan2312]

I hope hardcore re-introduces the old method of fighting from 5 directions instead of 4.

IMO, if it ain't broken don't fix it. not everyone's fault that some folk could not adapt to the "clunky" fighting from kcd 1.

[WHO]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Yoshitsune:

I came across a couple of early review vids featuring combat (link to one of them right below):

https://youtu.be/Sj_uhA7nA9I?t=41

What i noticed was that the enemies were EXTREMELY passive compared to KCD1.

In KCD1 in this situation half of that group would be immediately trying to flank you and the attacks would be coming in at a realistic relentless pace. In this example of KCD2 1 vs Many combat they are reacting like it's an Assassin's Creed game... each enemy patiently waiting his turn with the rare attack from the back or guy with missile weapon shooting from somewhere.

Now don't get me wrong there was room for improvement in 1 vs Many combat but the agressiveness and flanking AI isn't the correct way to go about it imho since it dumbs down the game too much. In my opinion 2 simple things would fix almost 90% of what was considered problematic about 1 vs Many in KCD.

1) Fix soft lock switching mechanics so it's way more manageable and 2) Reduce the animation lock time from tackles.

No need to alter the AI aggressiveness or tactics. In this way combat vs many will still be chaotic, dangerous and challenging like it was in KCD but players won't feel like they re struggling against the mechanics instead of the actual enemies.

I hope the devs reconsider this approach or i at least hope that HARDCORE mode features a way more aggressive AI with more active tactics.

Agreed, and the first game's combat was easily the best part about in, in my opinion this game is worst by comparison.

[Yoshitsune]

After having played i can confirm it is so. Archery is also "dumbed down" unfortunately. The game is excellent in almost every other aspect... but they went too soft on the combat in this iteration.

Still have hopes for hardcore at least pumping up aggressiveness.

[Hex: Onii-Chan]

I prefer it that way. And before anyone starts yapping about realism - it's not realistic to recover from a sword wound in under a minute by drinking an herb potion. Or banging bath wenches for 3 hours 5 times in a row.

Would it be cool if they completely reworked the system to allow for more engaging combat against multiple enemies? Sure, but as it stands I take the current version over getting dismantled by every single group of bandits, no matter what my equipment or skill is.

[Yoshitsune]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Hex: Onii-Chan:

I prefer it that way. And before anyone starts yapping about realism - it's not realistic to recover from a sword wound in under a minute by drinking an herb potion. Or banging bath wenches for 3 hours 5 times in a row.

Would it be cool if they completely reworked the system to allow for more engaging combat against multiple enemies? Sure, but as it stands I take the current version over getting dismantled by every single group of bandits, no matter what my equipment or skill is.

In one case you sacrifice realism to avoid boring stuff like having to wait longer not being able to play on.

In the other you go for a realistic situation which while hard to master is much more rewarding as an experience.

And for those that couldn't handle multiple opponents there was never any real need to fight in such situation so they always had options around those issues. No need to dumb it down for everyone else.

[Hex: Onii-Chan]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Yoshitsune:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Hex: Onii-Chan:

I prefer it that way. And before anyone starts yapping about realism - it's not realistic to recover from a sword wound in under a minute by drinking an herb potion. Or banging bath wenches for 3 hours 5 times in a row.

Would it be cool if they completely reworked the system to allow for more engaging combat against multiple enemies? Sure, but as it stands I take the current version over getting dismantled by every single group of bandits, no matter what my equipment or skill is.

In one case you sacrifice realism to avoid boring stuff like having to wait longer not being able to play on.

In the other you go for a realistic situation which while hard to master is much more rewarding as an experience.

And for those that couldn't handle multiple opponents there was never any real need to fight in such situation so they always had options around those issues. No need to dumb it down for everyone else.

There is nothing to master when you are getting chain-stun-locked. People are just defending ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ systems because they managed to cheese or outscale the jank and think that's "skill" that someone is trying to take away from them.

[Narwhals"oh mein gott Anhalte!]

yeah not a huge fan of the lock on enemies in fight its wierd when your fighnting multiple enemies is right

[Yoshitsune]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Hex: Onii-Chan:

There is nothing to master when you are getting chain-stun-locked. People are just defending ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ systems because they managed to cheese or outscale the jank and think that's "skill" that someone is trying to take away from them.

Just because something was beyond your capabilities (as a player) doesn't mean it was because of said system being jank or broken and it certainly doesn't mean those who did enjoy it cheesed it or outleveled it.

Infact your very statement pretty much sums up why you completely failed with multiple opponents because your equipment or skill has little to do with you ending up stun locked (ie tackled continuously). It was always about not running all the time.

Nway tackling has been removed in KCD2, and both hard lock and soft lock can switch more easily now between targets so there was no need to make the AI more passive and stop using flanking as much as it did.

[Hex: Onii-Chan]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Yoshitsune:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Hex: Onii-Chan:

There is nothing to master when you are getting chain-stun-locked. People are just defending ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ systems because they managed to cheese or outscale the jank and think that's "skill" that someone is trying to take away from them.

Just because something was beyond your capabilities (as a player) doesn't mean it was because of said system being jank or broken and it certainly doesn't mean those who did enjoy it cheesed it or outleveled it.

Infact your very statement pretty much sums up why you completely failed with multiple opponents because your equipment or skill has little to do with you ending up stun locked (ie tackled continuously). It was always about not running all the time.

Nway tackling has been removed in KCD2, and both hard lock and soft lock can switch more easily now between targets so there was no need to make the AI more passive and stop using flanking as much as it did.

Eh, weak attempt at baiting an emotional response. They literally advertised this game as having less clunky combat. You are arguing against the majority of the playerbase AND the developer.

And by "stunlocked" i mean that you could neither attack, nor block, not disengage. Because there are no queues when they attack from outside your FoV, you can't perfect parry or dodge, so you take the hit. At which point your choice is to try and run away (which causes you to get tackled), try to out-damage them (which is where your gear is the only thing helping), try to force clinches (which is annoying, semi-random in outcome and cheesy) or just reload and start the fight by shooting a single arrow into their face, which immediately solves the situation.

In this one you can at least guide the group into a more favorable spot where they stand in each other's way. They will eventually glitch past one another, but it will at least get you some time to maybe take one or two out with master-strikes first.

[SimranZenov]

That's what mods are for. Make the game as hard or as easy as one wants :]

[Azor]

Fighting vs multiple opponents in KCD1 wasn't hard, it was frustrating. Mid tier armor, maybe an aqua vitalis potion if your armor isn't good enough, and mindlessly master striking by pressing one button was how you defeated multiple opponents, while being thrown around ocasionally because enemies ran into you. Do that or avoid the frustration by fighting on horseback