How a Mali man get to Bohemia?

[Fairy]

Question.

So the game developer said Musa existence make sense. then please explain to me, how on earth a man from Mali go to Bohemia? you don't know where the kingdom of Mali is? google it. it literally beyond Sahara desert and the distant is so vast that it almost like a guy from China appear in Bohemia. what more is that he is a nobleman and why would a nobleman from the Kingdom of Mali visit Bohemia, a place in the middle of nowhere and so weak compare to the wealth and riches of Mali, a place where he might not be able to go back to due to the sheer distant of both place?

Why would Sigismund have him as follower anyway? when he literally went to war with the Ottoman, a muslim nation? I get that nobleman like to collect "weird" people like collectible, they do that with dwarf, albino and 6 fingers guy all the time but he is a muslim. it make so little sense. anyone play the game can give me a spoiler why it make sense for Musa to be there?

China was much more powerful than Mali so why not chinese too? are there any historical evidence to back up that Mali send people to explore the world or to Europe?

[Fairy]

Origineel geplaatst door Ravensblade:

Origineel geplaatst door Undertaker:

As for Coptic, not really, it's an Egyptian thing after all. But a Catholic convert, however... That would be more plausible, I guess. Still, doesn't explain how he would end up with the Ottomans.

Origineel geplaatst door Kufruk:

There is more direct reason in case of him being coptic. While most egyptians are not black is not like there is no black egyptians. But we don't need to go there, as there is both Kush/Numbia, Ethiopia and all teritories in between.

The reason i mention is that from like XIII century both european christians and african ones wanted to form more steady connection to each other. Why? To combat muslim growth that separated them and was seen as danger on both sides. There was real efford to even unite all churches back together.

That would give clear excuse why somebody from that part of Africa wanted to travel to Europe at that particular time. It would also give a reason why he would be kept alive even if he is not special envoy - he hold information on area that they want o establish more close relations with. It would also give a reason why he was captured by Ottomans. Now Ottomans would never transfer him to european side of their territory but that still less of a strech.

if only Musa is Ethiopian that is, it would start to make some sense but he is muslim so....

[Haddon]

Origineel geplaatst door EricHVela:

Travelers travel, but the travels the Musa who would shortly become a Mansa are rather well documented and somehow don't include travelling to Bohemia.

You'll get those who say it's a different Musa also from Mali and not the richest Mansa to ever exist. I find it naïve to think that a historical game from that range of time would choose a name that just happens to be the same as a notable and well-documented figure from history who shouldn't be there.

No, this is not Mansa Musa. Musa is just a name, it is a bastardized-Arabic derivation of Moses. Mansa Musa has been dead for decades by this point, almost 70 years.

Origineel geplaatst door Fairy:

Origineel geplaatst door Greco-Supremo:

Sameway they do in modern times, brought in by others via boat by themselves they won't make it

there is no boat to Bohemia, it is a landlock place so it make even less sense

Bohemia is ~200 miles from the Adriatic, and there is a trade route still used (and marching route that has been used since the Roman Empire) from Trieste to Vienna.

It takes about a month and a half, two months to travel from Timbuktu to either Fez or Tunis, Tunis probably being the easier route. From Tunis to Sicily, and from Sicily to Trieste, which was a pretty common trade route because Trieste was part of the Venetian trade empire. It was actually right about this time that changed, and they became controlled by the Habsburgs, who were the rulers of Bohemia RIGHT after this game takes place.

[Fairy]

Origineel geplaatst door Haddon:

Origineel geplaatst door EricHVela:

Travelers travel, but the travels the Musa who would shortly become a Mansa are rather well documented and somehow don't include travelling to Bohemia.

You'll get those who say it's a different Musa also from Mali and not the richest Mansa to ever exist. I find it naïve to think that a historical game from that range of time would choose a name that just happens to be the same as a notable and well-documented figure from history who shouldn't be there.

No, this is not Mansa Musa. Musa is just a name, it is a bastardized-Arabic derivation of Moses. Mansa Musa has been dead for decades by this point, almost 70 years.

Origineel geplaatst door Fairy:

there is no boat to Bohemia, it is a landlock place so it make even less sense

Bohemia is ~200 miles from the Adriatic, and there is a trade route still used (and marching route that has been used since the Roman Empire) from Trieste to Vienna.

It takes about a month and a half, two months to travel from Timbuktu to either Fez or Tunis, Tunis probably being the easier route. From Tunis to Sicily, and from Sicily to Trieste, which was a pretty common trade route because Trieste was part of the Venetian trade empire. It was actually right about this time that changed, and they became controlled by the Habsburgs, who were the rulers of Bohemia RIGHT after this game takes place.

except the Musa guy was with the Ottoman so he did not take that route

[Haddon]

Origineel geplaatst door Undertaker:

Origineel geplaatst door Notker:

In his army he had black soldiers. This is documented

Where?

Origineel geplaatst door Notker:

and you can also find black people in the European art of that time.

Such as? Could you give some examples at websites such as this?
https://effigiesandbrasses.com/
Because I can only remember depictions of St.Mauritius, tbh.

Origineel geplaatst door Notker:

Of course black slaves existed in the Roman empire too. So you can be sure, that they lived across the western parts of Europe.

W H A T
H
A
T

Even if some black slaves could end up in the Roman Empire, a huge miltinational state with contacts to many foreign lands, how does it stipulates alleged Black people in the western parts of Europe?..

On top of that, these slaves, I believe, should be almost exclusively Nubian and not West African.

Origineel geplaatst door Notker:

The next thing you need to know that the Ottoman Empire did not exist in that time. They weren't an empire in that time. Constinople was conquered in 1453.

Figures. You can call it an Ottoman state if you want, but one way or another, this entity existed since 1299.

Origineel geplaatst door Notker:

There is one really impressive historical person: Anton Wilhelm Amo. He was an African scholar who tought at German universities around 1730.

This was a whole different historical period, when the world was more or less explored, connection between continents established, and colonial empires thrives. Moreover, this person was converted to Christianity, while this Musa bloke remained Muslim.

Federico II had Moors, I don't know about specifically black soldiers, but some Moors are black. Not most, but some.
He was King of Sicily, and was a Norman, who were known for their tolerance...sort of...of other people living in Sicily, learning and trading there and also being hired on as mercenaries.

But the meat of this is the whole "black people in Roman Empire".
So there was this fella names Septimius Severus. His father was a Moor, likely mixed with Libyo-Punic though this isn't certain, his mother was Italic. He was raised in modern Tunisia, and we know that his father either came from a tribe, or had marriage alliances through sibling to a tribe, of Garamantes or Mauri (the term was used somewhat interchangeably, though they are not the same people). They had almost constantly been at war with the people who lived to the south of them, the Garama, who were a breakaway tribe we are told, and darker skinned. The Garamantes and Mauri were lighter skinned, like most Berber people, but they were all Berber linguistically.
After Commodus was an abject failure, you get The Year of Five Emperors, and Septimius Severus is one of the contenders for the throne. First he takes the center of the empire, and allies with a guy named Clodius Albinus, who controls the west (Spain, Gaul, Britain) to attack the person in the east, Pescennius Niger (Latin word for black). He goes over to the east, beats him, and marries Julia Domna to cement his ties with the east, as she is from one of the most powerful families that has controlled the Syrian cult of the sun god for a long time. They have two sons, Geta and Caracalla, who are in the atrocious Gladiator II and Caracalla becomes one of Rome's worst emperors.
Before that though, old Septimius goes a-conquering. He takes Mesopotamia for a time, takes back some of Dacia, and goes over to Britain to beat them up. Which he does pretty successfully.
We are given a story in the Historia Augusta of his time in Britain, where he approaches some men garrisoned on Hadrian's Wall. While there, one of them hails Caesar, and Severus turns towards him, sees that he is black (Severus himself would not have been considered white by modern standards), and makes the sign to ward off evil; he is known to hate black people. Not due to racism per se, but because of his early life fighting against dark-skinned Moors.

This was in the 210's CE. In what is now the borderlands of Scotland and England.

[Haddon]

Origineel geplaatst door Fairy:

Origineel geplaatst door Haddon:

No, this is not Mansa Musa. Musa is just a name, it is a bastardized-Arabic derivation of Moses. Mansa Musa has been dead for decades by this point, almost 70 years.


Bohemia is ~200 miles from the Adriatic, and there is a trade route still used (and marching route that has been used since the Roman Empire) from Trieste to Vienna.

It takes about a month and a half, two months to travel from Timbuktu to either Fez or Tunis, Tunis probably being the easier route. From Tunis to Sicily, and from Sicily to Trieste, which was a pretty common trade route because Trieste was part of the Venetian trade empire. It was actually right about this time that changed, and they became controlled by the Habsburgs, who were the rulers of Bohemia RIGHT after this game takes place.

except the Musa guy was with the Ottoman so he did not take that route

Then he went from Sicily to southern Greece, which the Ottomans did control. Or he did take that route, then went southeast 100 miles.

[shado]

Origineel geplaatst door Fairy:

Question.

So the game developer said Musa existence make sense. then please explain to me, how on earth a man from Mali go to Bohemia? you don't know where the kingdom of Mali is? google it. it literally beyond Sahara desert and the distant is so vast that it almost like a guy from China appear in Bohemia. what more is that he is a nobleman and why would a nobleman from the Kingdom of Mali visit Bohemia, a place in the middle of nowhere and so weak compare to the wealth and riches of Mali, a place where he might not be able to go back to due to the sheer distant of both place?

Why would Sigismund have him as follower anyway? when he literally went to war with the Ottoman, a muslim nation? I get that nobleman like to collect "weird" people like collectible, they do that with dwarf, albino and 6 fingers guy all the time but he is a muslim. it make so little sense. anyone play the game can give me a spoiler why it make sense for Musa to be there?

China was much more powerful than Mali so why not chinese too? are there any historical evidence to back up that Mali send people to explore the world or to Europe?

2 hour horse ride

[2Shy]

Origineel geplaatst door Haddon:

Origineel geplaatst door Undertaker:

Where?



Such as? Could you give some examples at websites such as this?
https://effigiesandbrasses.com/
Because I can only remember depictions of St.Mauritius, tbh.



W H A T
H
A
T

Even if some black slaves could end up in the Roman Empire, a huge miltinational state with contacts to many foreign lands, how does it stipulates alleged Black people in the western parts of Europe?..

On top of that, these slaves, I believe, should be almost exclusively Nubian and not West African.



Figures. You can call it an Ottoman state if you want, but one way or another, this entity existed since 1299.



This was a whole different historical period, when the world was more or less explored, connection between continents established, and colonial empires thrives. Moreover, this person was converted to Christianity, while this Musa bloke remained Muslim.

Federico II had Moors, I don't know about specifically black soldiers, but some Moors are black. Not most, but some.
He was King of Sicily, and was a Norman, who were known for their tolerance...sort of...of other people living in Sicily, learning and trading there and also being hired on as mercenaries.

But the meat of this is the whole "black people in Roman Empire".
So there was this fella names Septimius Severus. His father was a Moor, likely mixed with Libyo-Punic though this isn't certain, his mother was Italic. He was raised in modern Tunisia, and we know that his father either came from a tribe, or had marriage alliances through sibling to a tribe, of Garamantes or Mauri (the term was used somewhat interchangeably, though they are not the same people). They had almost constantly been at war with the people who lived to the south of them, the Garama, who were a breakaway tribe we are told, and darker skinned. The Garamantes and Mauri were lighter skinned, like most Berber people, but they were all Berber linguistically.
After Commodus was an abject failure, you get The Year of Five Emperors, and Septimius Severus is one of the contenders for the throne. First he takes the center of the empire, and allies with a guy named Clodius Albinus, who controls the west (Spain, Gaul, Britain) to attack the person in the east, Pescennius Nige r. He goes over to the east, beats him, and marries Julia Domna to cement his ties with the east, as she is from one of the most powerful families that has controlled the Syrian cult of the sun god for a long time. They have two sons, Geta and Caracalla, who are in the atrocious Gladiator II and Caracalla becomes one of Rome's worst emperors.
Before that though, old Septimius goes a-conquering. He takes Mesopotamia for a time, takes back some of Dacia, and goes over to Britain to beat them up. Which he does pretty successfully.
We are given a story in the Historia Augusta of his time in Britain, where he approaches some men garrisoned on Hadrian's Wall. While there, one of them hails Caesar, and Severus turns towards him, sees that he is black (Severus himself would not have been considered white by modern standards), and makes the sign to ward off evil; he is known to hate black people. Not due to racism per se, but because of his early life fighting against dark-skinned Moors.

This was in the 210's CE. In what is now the borderlands of Scotland and England.

It's not shoehorned but you have to post a multi paragraph defense desperately reaching for even the vaguest historical mention of the topic for why it NEEDS to be in the game, lol.

[Haddon]

Origineel geplaatst door 2Shy:

Origineel geplaatst door Haddon:

Federico II had Moors, I don't know about specifically black soldiers, but some Moors are black. Not most, but some.
He was King of Sicily, and was a Norman, who were known for their tolerance...sort of...of other people living in Sicily, learning and trading there and also being hired on as mercenaries.

But the meat of this is the whole "black people in Roman Empire".
So there was this fella names Septimius Severus. His father was a Moor, likely mixed with Libyo-Punic though this isn't certain, his mother was Italic. He was raised in modern Tunisia, and we know that his father either came from a tribe, or had marriage alliances through sibling to a tribe, of Garamantes or Mauri (the term was used somewhat interchangeably, though they are not the same people). They had almost constantly been at war with the people who lived to the south of them, the Garama, who were a breakaway tribe we are told, and darker skinned. The Garamantes and Mauri were lighter skinned, like most Berber people, but they were all Berber linguistically.
After Commodus was an abject failure, you get The Year of Five Emperors, and Septimius Severus is one of the contenders for the throne. First he takes the center of the empire, and allies with a guy named Clodius Albinus, who controls the west (Spain, Gaul, Britain) to attack the person in the east, Pescennius Nige r. He goes over to the east, beats him, and marries Julia Domna to cement his ties with the east, as she is from one of the most powerful families that has controlled the Syrian cult of the sun god for a long time. They have two sons, Geta and Caracalla, who are in the atrocious Gladiator II and Caracalla becomes one of Rome's worst emperors.
Before that though, old Septimius goes a-conquering. He takes Mesopotamia for a time, takes back some of Dacia, and goes over to Britain to beat them up. Which he does pretty successfully.
We are given a story in the Historia Augusta of his time in Britain, where he approaches some men garrisoned on Hadrian's Wall. While there, one of them hails Caesar, and Severus turns towards him, sees that he is black (Severus himself would not have been considered white by modern standards), and makes the sign to ward off evil; he is known to hate black people. Not due to racism per se, but because of his early life fighting against dark-skinned Moors.

This was in the 210's CE. In what is now the borderlands of Scotland and England.

It's not shoehorned but you have to post a multi paragraph defense desperately reaching for even the vaguest historical mention of the topic for why it NEEDS to be in the game, lol.

I was making a point that even 1200 years earlier, black people were found in small numbers, in places much further away.
I gave a historical explanation of why it is possible before that.
I didn't even argue anything about why it "needs" to be in the game.
Argue points people make, not what you wish they had said.
It doesn't need to be in the game. It is because the developer wanted to. It makes historical sense. Doesn't matter how much you froth at the mouth and scream otherwise.

[Kain]

"are there any historical evidence to back up that Mali send people to explore the world or to Europe?"

I couldn't find any names, but they did trade with Europe and Asia, mainly gold, slaves and food. It wouldn't be impossible for a Mali to reach Europe, would be extremely rare though.

There was Mansa that was an explorer, but he went up to Asia only as far as I know.

His predecessor was lost at sea trying to explore and reach other lands. It seems exploration was part of their culture and how they expanded their trade routes.

[Sgt. Flaw]

I don't like it...but I'm hoping there's enough other stuff in the game to make up for it....there isn't a single game I do t have something I dont like about it and Musa isn't enough to dissuade me from buying...neither are the optional gay scenes (Henry's not ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ real people)....

I am weary about the rest of the game tho and don't trust early adopters opinions worth ♥♥♥♥

[Kain]

Origineel geplaatst door Sgt. Flaw:

I don't like it...but I'm hoping there's enough other stuff in the game to make up for it....there isn't a single game I do t have something I dont like about it and Musa isn't enough to dissuade me from buying...neither are the optional gay scenes (Henry's not ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ real people)....

I am weary about the rest of the game tho and don't trust early adopters opinions worth ♥♥♥♥

Best thing to do in this case is definitely wait for reviews and other long play videosml.

[MadBone12]

You see, this is why accurate media representation is important. You think there were no black people or Africans in medieval Europe because historical films only show white people in that time era. But Africans have been in Europe since at least the 1200s, as some visited Europe as explorers, warriors, merchants, diplomats and slaves. And the Mali empire was one of the main civilisations on the African content sending out merchants, explorers and diplomats from 1200s to 1600s.

[Crimson Dawn]

Because dei my friend. The minorities have to be included even at the cost of the game's artistic integrity. When does it ever make sense?

[Колбаска]

Origineel geplaatst door Fairy:

Question.

So the game developer said Musa existence make sense. then please explain to me, how on earth a man from Mali go to Bohemia? you don't know where the kingdom of Mali is? google it. it literally beyond Sahara desert and the distant is so vast that it almost like a guy from China appear in Bohemia. what more is that he is a nobleman and why would a nobleman from the Kingdom of Mali visit Bohemia, a place in the middle of nowhere and so weak compare to the wealth and riches of Mali, a place where he might not be able to go back to due to the sheer distant of both place?

Why would Sigismund have him as follower anyway? when he literally went to war with the Ottoman, a muslim nation? I get that nobleman like to collect "weird" people like collectible, they do that with dwarf, albino and 6 fingers guy all the time but he is a muslim. it make so little sense. anyone play the game can give me a spoiler why it make sense for Musa to be there?

China was much more powerful than Mali so why not chinese too? are there any historical evidence to back up that Mali send people to explore the world or to Europe?

Warhorse does what investors say. Maybe if they hadn't added a black man and made Henry gay, they wouldn't have gotten the money, remember that the game was developed at a time when dei and woke were at the helm. It doesn't fit into the logic of the world in any way, it's divorced from reality and done on the orders of people who don't play games.

[C]

The fact that, today, Mali is one of the poorest countries in the world with issues as basic as access to water should not deceive you: Mali was pretty much Wakanda in the 15th century.

They wuz kings. It is likely that Musa of Mali used a flying vehicle or a similar means of transportation. It is well-known that the pyramids of Egypt (built by Malians just like Musa) were conduits for electricity. Musa probably used a magnetic cable car powered by pyramids.