Dancing with the Devil (spoilers!)

[Kel'Thuzad]

I'm calling absolute B.S on this mission..

Initially I protested killing the villagers but didn't push it as far as mutiny to prevent it.
After the dust settled, I was very dissatisfied to find every NPC is now grilling me about it, despite being a lowly soldier and not one of the leaders/nobles responsible for the attack.

I tried reloading a prior save, defeated Devil in the duel, only to find it prevents the entire raid and therefore the garrison ambush. Meaning there are now double the amount of defenders inside the fort. So many in fact, that it's now impossible to open the gate via stealth.

Why is it not an option to prevent the slaughter but still torch the village to draw out the garrison? I fully intended to stick to the plan of burning the village, just without the needless slaughter.

The game is like "LOL, here's the consequences of your decisions!" despite the decision I wanted to make not being an option..

I also find it funny that Samuel gets a pass for slaughtering the villagers and wanting to slit Von Burgow's throat. Supposedly his whole reason for being there is his disgust with the similar slaughter of his people, but apparently he's no better. Just a massive hypocrite.

They even have Hans Capon grill you for not preventing the slaughter, despite his only excuse being "just following Zizka's orders" (exactly the same as Henry, who's in even less of a position to defy orders).

[Hellsteeth30]

I did that mission just last night, being non-burny.

I had maybe 27 stealth and was in full plate, killed two guys before opening the gate.

Not impossible. The guy next to the gate didn't even notice when I opened it.

[Saizo]

Sometimes you cannot have both and even if the game has some parts where it's something like you said "here's your consequences of your decision", this makes actually sense in his case.

Also there is an achievement for saving the village and staying unnoticed and it isn't that hard.
I throwed a rock to lure one guard away and another to be even more away from the other and stealth killed him, than I distracted the other one and stabbed him too.

[Kel'Thuzad]

Originally posted by Hellsteeth30:

I did that mission just last night, being non-burny.

I had maybe 27 stealth and was in full plate, killed two guys before opening the gate.

Not impossible. The guy next to the gate didn't even notice when I opened it.

The two guys leaning against the front gatehouse can't be stealth killed because their backs are against the wall (and too close to each other).
I tried luring one away with stones but still couldn't deal with both without entering combat.

Pretty sure my stealth is similar level to yours.

My gripe is mainly the inability to make the most logical/tactical decision, to burn the town but not kill everyone.
Or heck, at least just not be the sole person held responsible for it....

[emreyigit1967]

The thing about this game is that it is essentially a story you participate in, with few story consequences for your actions. The reason given for this is that in the first game Henry is a lowly yeomen, and even by the end he is just a squire.

I've also found that where you do get choices, the outcome is pretty well-defined and you err on the side of caution.

This game is not nuanced in terms of story development.

I thrashed Dry Devil during both of my playthroughs. He is at best a mercenary soldier, and there is no reason Henry would feel obliged to defer to him on everything. Zizka is a little different being descended of lesser gentry, but ultimately, again, he is not Radzig level, let alone Hanush/Capon. (Later on, he surpasses them, but that is a different story.)

[Four-Orce]

I just threw rocks to move the 2 guards away and stealth opened the gate.

[Kel'Thuzad]

Originally posted by emreyigit1967:

I thrashed Dry Devil during both of my playthroughs. He is at best a mercenary soldier, and there is no reason Henry would feel obliged to defer to him on everything.

Dry Devil is technically a noble/knight. And given command of the raid by Zizka, another noble/knight.

[emreyigit1967]

Originally posted by Kel'Thuzad:

Dry Devil is technically a noble/knight. And given command of the raid by Zizka, another noble/knight.

Is there reference to this in-game? I mean Zizka is a of social class barely different to a blacksmith, so Dry Devil... I'm not sure.

I mean, they may say "I am a noble" but you will note that this didn't help the much higher status Capon at the start of the game.

Plus, you actually get your orders from Hanush and the Moravian fellow whose name I've forgotten. They neither of them put you under Zizka's command. You can accept his command, but you are not obliged to.

...

Players may be confusing NPCs who give them orders with NPCs who have the authority to give them orders. Of course, it might not be wise to cross Zizka or Dry Devil, but there is no obligation whatsoever to take them at face value, and even if you do, none to allow you to override your previous orders.

[Kel'Thuzad]

Originally posted by emreyigit1967:

Originally posted by Kel'Thuzad:

Dry Devil is technically a noble/knight. And given command of the raid by Zizka, another noble/knight.

Is there reference to this in-game? I mean Zizka is a of social class barely different to a blacksmith, so Dry Devil... I'm not sure.

I mean, they may say "I am a noble" but you will note that this didn't help the much higher status Capon at the start of the game.

Plus, you actually get your orders from Hanush and the Moravian fellow whose name I've forgotten. They neither of them put you under Zizka's command. You can accept his command, but you are not obliged to.

I forget his real name, he's introduced/referenced as "Sir ____ of _____" (same with "Sir" Zizka). It's a formal title, not a courtesy.
Knights were minor nobility and land-holders.

[emreyigit1967]

But at the same time Henry himself remarks Z's a landless wanderer (in one of the in-game options during interactions with NPCs) so I don't think he's buying that.

Look, we don't need to agree on whether Z or DD is of the gentry or nobility, but I think we can agree that you can go either way. Therefore, there is no need to follow either Z's orders or DD's. Except when they make sense.

[Kel'Thuzad]

Originally posted by emreyigit1967:

But at the same time Henry himself remarks Z's a landless wanderer (in one of the in-game options during interactions with NPCs) so I don't think he's buying that.

Look, we don't need to agree on whether Z or DD is of the gentry or nobility, but I think we can agree that you can go either way. Therefore, there is no need to follow either Z's orders or DD's. Except when they make sense.

The thing is, I didn't follow their orders. I didn't participate in killing the villagers, but I still got held responsible for it.

I'm all for a game with choices, and those choices having consequences. But this one is just done so poorly and makes so little sense. Just another lose/lose scenario where Henry is wrong no matter what he does, and punished either way.

[emreyigit1967]

Originally posted by Kel'Thuzad:

The thing is, I didn't follow their orders. I didn't participate in killing the villagers, but I still got held responsible for it.

I'm all for a game with choices, and those choices having consequences. But this one is just done so poorly and makes so little sense. Just another lose/lose scenario where Henry is wrong no matter what he does, and punished either way.

I think that would make sense. If you know of murder about to be committed, taking time off to observe it being committed without participating does not absolve you of complicity.

[White]

Originally posted by emreyigit1967:

The thing about this game is that it is essentially a story you participate in, with few story consequences for your actions. The reason given for this is that in the first game Henry is a lowly yeomen, and even by the end he is just a squire.

Just a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ page or valet more like. Such a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ disappointing ending. I can hardly believe that Hanush gives you blacksmith bitchwork mere minutes away from the ending.

[Миша]

Originally posted by Kel'Thuzad:

Originally posted by Hellsteeth30:

I did that mission just last night, being non-burny.

I had maybe 27 stealth and was in full plate, killed two guys before opening the gate.

Not impossible. The guy next to the gate didn't even notice when I opened it.

The two guys leaning against the front gatehouse can't be stealth killed because their backs are against the wall (and too close to each other).
I tried luring one away with stones but still couldn't deal with both without entering combat.

Pretty sure my stealth is similar level to yours.

My gripe is mainly the inability to make the most logical/tactical decision, to burn the town but not kill everyone.
Or heck, at least just not be the sole person held responsible for it....

Stealth kill the guard patrolling the ramparts [walk under the drawbridge to avoid detection] then go above the gate with two guards. Once you're there, they're scripted, I think, to move away from the gate, with one standing near the stairs leading to the rampart and facing the tower, while the other will patrol between the drawbridge and the gate.
That's three guards who can be stealth killed. You can further kill three more but you must be quick and hide the first three bodies.
One will be facing the racks inside the house next to the stables, then the other two are sleeping upstairs on that same house. Soon there will be two guards waking up who'll go to that house so you got to act quick. There'll be a window on the 2nd floor where you can jump down and open the gate silently.

I agree though that it's idiotic to have no option to just cause chaos without putting the peasantry to the sword. Maybe burn a barn or two, maybe a field here and there, just to draw out the garrison. I hate the design of this quest.

[ChangAnAve59]

Originally posted by Миша:

Originally posted by Kel'Thuzad:

The two guys leaning against the front gatehouse can't be stealth killed because their backs are against the wall (and too close to each other).
I tried luring one away with stones but still couldn't deal with both without entering combat.

Pretty sure my stealth is similar level to yours.

My gripe is mainly the inability to make the most logical/tactical decision, to burn the town but not kill everyone.
Or heck, at least just not be the sole person held responsible for it....

Stealth kill the guard patrolling the ramparts [walk under the drawbridge to avoid detection] then go above the gate with two guards. Once you're there, they're scripted, I think, to move away from the gate, with one standing near the stairs leading to the rampart and facing the tower, while the other will patrol between the drawbridge and the gate.
That's three guards who can be stealth killed. You can further kill three more but you must be quick and hide the first three bodies.
One will be facing the racks inside the house next to the stables, then the other two are sleeping upstairs on that same house. Soon there will be two guards waking up who'll go to that house so you got to act quick. There'll be a window on the 2nd floor where you can jump down and open the gate silently.

I agree though that it's idiotic to have no option to just cause chaos without putting the peasantry to the sword. Maybe burn a barn or two, maybe a field here and there, just to draw out the garrison. I hate the design of this quest.

Yes, you are right. The guards are scripted to trigger when the player moves to a specific spot, and the alarm automatically activates when the player moves too close to the drawbridge (it does not trigger when passing below). Honestly, I think the mission should offer a full stealth option, which is entirely doable, instead of forcing the progression and breaking the immersion experience.

[Darkstorn]

Originally posted by Kel'Thuzad:

The two guys leaning against the front gatehouse can't be stealth killed because their backs are against the wall (and too close to each other)

They can: If you kill them with bows, they won't immediately yell for an alarm. Once you hit one, the other one will wonder what happened for a brief period, then you can shoot him. If you let the closest guard wander off, you can kill both without anyone else noticing with just bows.

After that you can repeat the same for the two guards sitting at the campfire.

And then shoot the wandering guards on the battlements & around camp. This still leaves around 4 people sleeping in the tents but none of that shooting was enough to wake them up so i finished them with the dagger.

They need to verify your existence before they can become fully hostile: Up to that point they're still in searching mode. This makes bows VERY effective for stealth: You CAN kill an entire area before they fully realize what's happening because they need to see who attacked them.

The AI is real stupid around bows.