For Whom The Bell Tolls is a good quest (spoilers)

[Actalo]

I've seen a lot of posts complaining about this quest and the lack of hand-holding involved in completing it; however, I believe reality is the opposite.

The first time I encountered this quest, I just jumped down the well, talked to Hans, and used stealth to go back and fourth. Then, I decided to replay the quest and bypassed everything by simply talking to the Chamberlain through the kitchen. Then the third time, testing mods, I decided to try and play the quests as the devs intended, and realized there's plenty of time to do everything.

- Carrying sacks opens up dialogue with a fellow convict who exposes the saddler as a former criminal who should have lockpicks.

- Fixing the scaffold gives just extra dialogue, I believe.

- Speaking to the cook, leads to blacksmith, make horseshoe (gives lockpick with perk), leads to saddler, who has lockpicks but wants a rosary from priest.

- Giving roasary to saddler gives lockpicks.

- Competing cook quest leads to Hans and Chamberlain, Chamberlain gives Henry free roam to find digestion, leads to Katherine and fever tonic.

- Doing anything smithing leads to soldier praying.

- Soldier praying who knows roasary belongs to the Captain and will escort Henry to the Captain.

All in all, there's plenty of time to do everything and a explore. I have no idea why people hate this quest.

[makbthemf]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Xander Tyrann:

Your imagination is running wild.

Sorry, forgot to backup my statements about the cliffal.

Here's the place of fall itself: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3452995147
As you can see, no signs of swamping.

Here's Wikipedia's article on the place to verify the location:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian_Paradise
Here's the webpage of structures involved in the incident:
https://www.geoparkceskyraj.cz/en/science/geological-phenomena/sediments/mesozoic.html
As you can see - they are tectonic, hence, there's the same sandstone bed under the lake.
The place of the fall is definitely covered with some alluvium, which softened the fall. The fact that no trees are growing in that place of fall means that there is not enough space for the root system. This means that the alluvium layer does not exceed 2 or 3 meters, which nis ot enough for amortization of the 170-180 kg system.

There're some problems with research on two bodies falling off the cliff altogether (obviously, such a trope is popular in media, but it usually never happens IRL). However, we have an alternative way of measurement. The upper point coordinate is 1296.77 2064.94 30.62. The lower is 1302.37 2065.49 12.02. Hence the height is 18,6 meters. I wouldn't simulate the whole system's parameters because it's a dynamic system, and I have no such software right now on my PC. But Jindro alone would reach the speed of 19,0999 m\s (63 km\h) in vacuum. It's hard to simulate the speed of fall of the moving object - because air resistance would vary, but 15% is more than enough estimation. Hence, it should be 16,234915 m\s. The force of the hit would be 11201.829764932063 joules in that case. Even with soil amortization, it would be no less than 9 kilojoules.
For comparison, the bicycle handlebar syndrome at such speed would have the impact of 3 times lover - the speed reduction is quite smaller because the body is rolling over the bike.

However, 37% of bikes incidents with casual bikers (who usually desn't exceed riding speed of 10 m\s) end up with Handlebar Trauma Syndrome: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3865976/
Which involves internal bleeding and blunt traumas. Because causation is exponential, it's quite realistic to estimate 9 kilojoules hit as causing internal bleeding for 99% if Jindro hit the vagarbond's skeleton bones by his stomach even if the amortisation effect of soft tissues would be included.

So, as you can see - no imagination, my dear opponent.

[King Fishsticks]

Opprinnelig skrevet av makbthemf:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Xander Tyrann:

Before that they had no reason to want to buy fine clothes.

Only if we assume that they are idiots. It's the XV century - clothing means everything. Laws against too pretentious clothing worn by the third estate were common already. Ok, Jindro turned into the dumbass with level 7 intelligence, because of Lethean Water effect (which had different effects in the KCD1), but what about Jan?

Jan is naive and thinks that his word is good enough as proof that he is who he claims to be especially since he belives the captain is in a good enough condition to vouch for his identity.

Opprinnelig skrevet av makbthemf:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Xander Tyrann:

it would have been terrible writing for them to have spent ages crafting potions to sell before this point.

It takes a virtual day on the speed of 15. Also, we're able to brew 130 potions at Bozhena's during the first day after the cliffal. So Jindro could already have all the necessary stuff to buy new clothing.

Lets look at this from a story and ingame universe perspective. Why would Jan wait for Henry to make 130 potions? He has a message that needs to delivered and he belives that his word is good enough to prove who he is.
Who would they sell those potions to? Bozhena has no need for the potions Henry can make since she herself is a skilled maker and also has Pavlena, Regular peasents would be to poor too keep any for just incase moments since they dont know what they might need. Trader? why would he trust that the potions are not fake or ♥♥♥♥ quality? Henry is a complete stranger.

Opprinnelig skrevet av makbthemf:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Xander Tyrann:

Are you talking about where Henry lets Vuytek drag him out of the wine cellar and kick him as he doesn't want to start a brawl?

Yes, my Jindřich would beat all sh1t from him and apologize to the lady. But Warhorse just left me without control, let my Jindro be beaten and dragged out BTS, to force me into another stuffy quest - "For Whom The Bell Tolls?".

One thing you seem to miss is that Henry's biggest priority is to keep his lord out of trouble and secondary being to deliver the message. Getting into a fight at a wedding fails both of them.
You also seem to assume that even if Henry knocks him out and sweet talks his way out of it with the girl its pretty much a guarantee that a servant will go down there to either put wine away or to fetch more and once he is discovered the most likely culprit would be Henry since he was likely the last one seen going down there.

[Xander Tyrann]

Opprinnelig skrevet av makbthemf:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Xander Tyrann:

Your imagination is running wild.

Sorry, forgot to backup my statements about the cliffal.

Here's the place of fall itself: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3452995147
As you can see, no signs of swamping.

Here's Wikipedia's article on the place to verify the location:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian_Paradise
Here's the webpage of structures involved in the incident:
https://www.geoparkceskyraj.cz/en/science/geological-phenomena/sediments/mesozoic.html
As you can see - they are tectonic, hence, there's the same sandstone bed under the lake.
The place of the fall is definitely covered with some alluvium, which softened the fall. The fact that no trees are growing in that place of fall means that there is not enough space for the root system. This means that the alluvium layer does not exceed 2 or 3 meters, which nis ot enough for amortization of the 170-180 kg system.

There're some problems with research on two bodies falling off the cliff altogether (obviously, such a trope is popular in media, but it usually never happens IRL). However, we have an alternative way of measurement. The upper point coordinate is 1296.77 2064.94 30.62. The lower is 1302.37 2065.49 12.02. Hence the height is 18,6 meters. I wouldn't simulate the whole system's parameters because it's a dynamic system, and I have no such software right now on my PC. But Jindro alone would reach the speed of 19,0999 m\s (63 km\h) in vacuum. It's hard to simulate the speed of fall of the moving object - because air resistance would vary, but 15% is more than enough estimation. Hence, it should be 16,234915 m\s. The force of the hit would be 11201.829764932063 joules in that case. Even with soil amortization, it would be no less than 9 kilojoules.
For comparison, the bicycle handlebar syndrome at such speed would have the impact of 3 times lover - the speed reduction is quite smaller because the body is rolling over the bike.

However, 37% of bikes incidents with casual bikers (who usually desn't exceed riding speed of 10 m\s) end up with Handlebar Trauma Syndrome: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3865976/
Which involves internal bleeding and blunt traumas. Because causation is exponential, it's quite realistic to estimate 9 kilojoules hit as causing internal bleeding for 99% if Jindro hit the vagarbond's skeleton bones by his stomach even if the amortisation effect of soft tissues would be included.

So, as you can see - no imagination, my dear opponent.

There are clearly trees in that photo.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0379711219303236

First google result says 50% survival rate at 15m on hard ground.

In game 2 people fell. 1 died.
It's not unrealistic.

He's also a video game protagonist with access to semi magical potions.

I appreciate the effort you put in but I don't understand why you would put some much effort into not having fun when you could just acknowledge some people survive from those falls and enjoy the game?

[makbthemf]

Opprinnelig skrevet av King Fishsticks:

Jan is naive and thinks that his word is good enough as proof that he is who he claims to be especially since he belives the captain is in a good enough condition to vouch for his identity.

Good sir, I 100% agree with you on the main idea of your argument. All my disagreements are related strictly to the terms.

Jan Ptachek in "Clothes Make the Man" quest of KCD1 literally explained to Jindřich ze Skalice why clothing is important in XV century. So it's historical and present in game lore.

And both theories on the subject - a) Jan is a retconned idiot (not a disease since 1992), or b) such behaviour is impossible nor in the XV century nor in the game - fit my major position that the 1st half of the 1st act of KCD2 is written as poorly as possible. And that vibes kill all possible pleasure of rare in-game nonlinear quests like "For Whom The Bell Tolls?".

Opprinnelig skrevet av King Fishsticks:

Who would they sell those potions to?

Trader or apothecary.

Opprinnelig skrevet av King Fishsticks:

why would he trust that the potions are not fake or ♥♥♥♥ quality? Henry is a complete stranger.

And after the end of the prologue, Jindřich and Jan are not even strangers anymore - they are dangerous vagabonds who started the fight, and knokcouted several villagers. But my Jindro, with a reputation of 30 or 35 (I don't remember the exact number, but it was extremely low) swapped with two deals all the coins the trader and apothecary had in their registers, with the humble addition of several unknown recipes. This is called ludonarrative dissonance. Which is one of the features of bad writing in videogames.

Opprinnelig skrevet av King Fishsticks:

One thing you seem to miss is that Henry's biggest priority is to keep his lord out of trouble and secondary being to deliver the message. Getting into a fight at a wedding fails both of them.

And you're missing three things:

1) Jindro has severe PTSD - it's not an ordinary psychic condition - it's a disorder. People with disorders usually are not able to act logically if situations trigger some disorder-caused mechanisms. Agression is one of them in cases of PTSD
2) There are only three of them there. Jindro could be the 17-20 level absolute fistfighting champion of Trosky at the moment. The chances that the situation would get out of control are extra low.
3) If we assume that after cliffal Jindro is a dumbass with int 7 - all that argument loose any sense. Is it possible to reach a wedding with a low int? - Absolutely. Would Jindro, in that case, be smart enough to make such a long logical chain? - No.

All three extremally require players to make choices in the cellar conflict.

Opprinnelig skrevet av King Fishsticks:

You also seem to assume that even if Henry knocks him out and sweet talks his way out of it with the girl its pretty much a guarantee that a servant will go down there to either put wine away or to fetch more and once he is discovered the most likely culprit would be Henry since he was likely the last one seen going down there.

I'm sorry, but could you explain why? If Jindro is not caught on the spot and persuades Agnieszka to cover him, it would be the word of the newly wed junior lady of Semine against the word of filthy drunkard, who was hitting on most of women at the wedding. And it would be the words in the court held by Jan of Semine as a head - newly father-in-law of Agnieszka. I think it would be a miracle if Vashek will not be hanged because of the disgraceful attempt of the noblewoman. But by most chances, Jan would just throw filthy peasant away with no chance to defend himself in court, to avoid gossips.

[cretedog]

Not only would the fall kill Henry, how about the left middle posterior injury to his back from an arrow? That would have caused a collapsed lung on top of everything else.

[makbthemf]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Xander Tyrann:

There are clearly trees in that photo.

Far away from the grounding place.

Opprinnelig skrevet av Xander Tyrann:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0379711219303236
First google result says 50% survival rate at 15m on hard ground.

It's modern statistics. In the XV century, medicine was not able to treat internal bleeding at all. Every internal bleeding was fatal.

Opprinnelig skrevet av Xander Tyrann:

I appreciate the effort you put in but I don't understand why you would put some much effort into not having fun when you could just acknowledge some people survive from those falls and enjoy the game?

Because without constructive critics, the next game in the franchise would be worse than KCD2. I'm barely handling KCD2 at many moments, so by most chances, the Kingdom Come franchise would simply die for me in that scenario. And KCD1 is my most favorite videogame, in fact, I put it in the 1st place among all games (of all types) produced by humanity.

That's why.

[makbthemf]

Opprinnelig skrevet av cretedog:

Not only would the fall kill Henry, how about the left middle posterior injury to his back from an arrow? That would have caused a collapsed lung on top of everything else.

And destroyed scapula bone severly - which was invalidazing trauma for XV century medicine. But what's the difference if Jindro will die in several hours?

[cretedog]

I haven't finished the quest ' For Whom the Bell Tolls' but I do know that it seems that there is no positive outcome after the quest? I was hoping the quest had more sensible options.

[makbthemf]

Opprinnelig skrevet av cretedog:

I haven't finished the quest ' For Whom the Bell Tolls' but I do know that it seems that there is no positive outcome after the quest? I was hoping the quest had more sensible options.

The outcome is positive, but sh1tty in scenario terms as possible. In my second playthrough, I just skipped that cheap drama in the cutscene.

A little hint: try to remember game-opener flash-forward ;-)

[Xander Tyrann]

Opprinnelig skrevet av makbthemf:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Xander Tyrann:

There are clearly trees in that photo.

Far away from the grounding place.

Opprinnelig skrevet av Xander Tyrann:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0379711219303236
First google result says 50% survival rate at 15m on hard ground.

It's modern statistics. In the XV century, medicine was not able to treat internal bleeding at all. Every internal bleeding was fatal.

Opprinnelig skrevet av Xander Tyrann:

I appreciate the effort you put in but I don't understand why you would put some much effort into not having fun when you could just acknowledge some people survive from those falls and enjoy the game?

Because without constructive critics, the next game in the franchise would be worse than KCD2. I'm barely handling KCD2 at many moments, so by most chances, the Kingdom Come franchise would simply die for me in that scenario. And KCD1 is my most favorite videogame, in fact, I put it in the 1st place among all games (of all types) produced by humanity.

That's why.

Their roots would be under where he fell.

Also you're being destructive. Not constructive.

Constructive criticism is finding solutions to problems. You are avoiding solutions to your problems.

Every single problem you have mentioned has a very reasonable in game logic behind it that you are ignoring purely because you want to hate the game.

You also are using contradictory logic.

You are saying he should metagame by unrealistically making hundreds of potions in a day to buy clothes he doesn't know he needs. But he can't use those potions to cure his wounds because it's not realistic?

You use his stats points and perks to determine whether he can win a fight (that didn't take place) but not whether his stats would allow him to survive a fall?

Do you want to use video game mechanics or do you not want to use video game mechanics?

Admittedly the game isn't very consistent on this point either but it's not trying to be.

[makbthemf]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Xander Tyrann:

Their roots would be under where he fell.

Root systems are not mandated by biological laws to be symmetrical, like in the pictures of children's books, or the Oakland Roots logo ;-)

Opprinnelig skrevet av Xander Tyrann:

Also you're being destructive. Not constructive.

Constructive criticism is finding solutions to problems. You are avoiding solutions to your problems.

It's simply not true, in post #14 I've stated, which solution would be great for the first act of the KCD2 with the example of KCD1:

Opprinnelig skrevet av makbthemf:

Where all that "I'm a poor blacksmith son, with nothing left" trope was motivated by quite a possible events, it was completely optional (you could go to the feast immediately to have at least some additional gear and coin), and was possible to overcome by player's efforts (don't ask Jindro why he was seen near mills so often).

If you want shortly, via list - all emotionally-negative trops in the game should be:
1) perfectly motivated, like Skalitza pillaging in KCD1.
2) be avoidable - as arriving to the feast in "Awakening" made Jindro's life much easier in KCD1.
3) possible to overcome with player's efforts - like thieving quests and activities in KCD1 allowed to earn some coin without conscripting to military service.

Opprinnelig skrevet av Xander Tyrann:

Every single problem you have mentioned has a very reasonable in game logic behind it that you are ignoring purely because you want to hate the game.

So prove it to me. Your arguments about cliffall are not valid. You've provided modern statistics of falls, which became possible because modern medicine is able to treat internal bleeding. My argument was 100% concentrated on it.

And you answered only on the subject of cliffall - all char development, I've provided in post #30 were completely ignored by you. Because I'm referring to game lore? And it's hard to argue with the canon of the game. Or was there another reason?

Opprinnelig skrevet av Xander Tyrann:

But he can't use those potions to cure his wounds because it's not realistic?

Do you mean internal bleeding? Show me, please, which potion in the lore could deal with it. There are no coagulants in the potions list, and even no modern coagulant would help with internal bleeding - our internal organs are not designed by evolution to absorb severe hits, so they have quite exposed circulatory system and you need surgery to close the internal bleeding. So, such a trope would be looking great in a fantasy game, where magic could allow vessels to self-healm, but not in the realistic setting of the XV century. However, there's no such potion in the game.

Opprinnelig skrevet av Xander Tyrann:

You use his stats points and perks to determine whether he can win a fight (that didn't take place) but not whether his stats would allow him to survive a fall?

Do you want to use video game mechanics or do you not want to use video game mechanics?

Because perks are not activated in the prologue until the 2nd day at Bozhena's:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3453162940

Stat points of strength could help, agree, but every player has the same stats and skills in the prologue 😉

And to be honest even Vasyl's Virastyuk's muscles (level 50-60 in KCD terms) wouldn't save him from internal bleading after 18,6 metres cliffall.

[YoFaceoff]

One of the coolest quest I've ever played.

[AmpleNickel4262]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Knarrenheinz:

The quest is so stupid. I got a key to all doors and chests and it doesnt open any door or chest.

You probably got A key from a guard that leads to HIS room and/or chest

[Hidden Gunman]

Do fetch quests in the right order, and talk to the people, and its over by the third bell, no crime.

If you try to stealth it or overthink it, it can become a nightmare.

[Mortimer]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Hidden Gunman:

Do fetch quests in the right order, and talk to the people, and its over by the third bell, no crime.

If you try to stealth it or overthink it, it can become a nightmare.

And what would that order be? because so far nobody could figure out how to beat this Quest without increasing your Crime Statistics.
You have to lockpick 2 Chests, which are at least 4 Crimes already.
2x Lockpick used & 1x Easy Chest opened, 1x Very Easy Cheast opened.
If you break a Lockpick, that +1 Crime per Lockpick destroyed.
When People talk about a "No Crime Run" they talk about the "Crime Statistics" in your Player Tab.
This includes "no Items stolen, no Corpses looted, no Civilians killed, no Locks or Pockets picked, no Lockpicks used, no Lockpicks broken & 0.0 Groschen Value of Stolen Items".