"What is Food Scarcity?" - KCD2 Devs

[Nautica Malone]

Forget whatever crybaby propaganda you've been fed ( no pun intended ) by the lore books scattered about or the Codex - In 15th century Bohemia, delicacies just fall into your lap wherever you travel.

The way food consumption, distribution and preparation is handled really destroys any immersion you might've had left in living as a down-on-his-luck Messenger boy, and while I get it's not the main focus and the developers might not want to turn it into too much of a survival game, it's a sufficiently prominent component of the gameplay loop and the atmosphere that it deserves being treated less atrociously.

Where do I even start? The fact you have quality apples and pears and bread loafs just laying around abandoned in every pier and overturned basket or in settlements where some of them can simply be picked up without stealing despite all of those practically being luxury items, the fact you have an *unlimited* ( It doesn't even take some time to refill, it just never ends ) supply of wine taps that you can use for free that completely negate any need for food with a perk or two and also increase your drinking at the same time as long as you drink it before sleep?

The fact you get like 10 or 50 meat chunks from wolves and dogs and dead horses that pop up every time you fast travel? The fact you can dry all of them instantly so they'll almost never even spoil at free drying racks? The fact you only need like 4 food items to overeat so you're never running out in a million years?

What is this, the middle-ages or an all-you-can-eat buffet? If you're already going to make a hunger bar and create all those different items and 3 different cooking methods, then at least revamp all of the above, and add some complex recipes to use multiple foodstuffs for while you're at it like stews.

[Shawn]

Yeah, it is a bit off-putting.

I'm not sure why they bothered to implement the hunger system, when the biggest problem I have is trying not to get the overeating debuff while grinding drinking skill. It sure is never a problem finding food.

[joxertm22]

Why are you grinding drinking skill with wine and beer? Because of pisspoor youtube video "guides"?
Soon after earlygame you'll have so much of money there is no reason to watch wine barrel animation over and over. Use schnapps and moonshine.

[Baron01]

I'm honestly confused by the wall of text in the OP. Is it a cry for help?

Ultimately, if you are looking for a game that is not fun to play, i'm sure you can find some survival game that will cater to your weird tastes. There is also hardcore mode coming soon, which apparently should reduce how plentiful things are across the whole game. Last remedy is to look for mods that adjust certain aspects of the game to your liking--something like Misery or Anomaly for Stalker games.

[Tenchuu Khan]

Originally posted by Shawn:

Yeah, it is a bit off-putting.

You should be off pudding.

:D sorry it just too much reminded me of the between two ferns episode with Jennifer Lawrence

[Shawn]

Originally posted by joxertm22:

Why are you grinding drinking skill with wine and beer? Because of pisspoor youtube video "guides"?
Soon after earlygame you'll have so much of money there is no reason to watch wine barrel animation over and over. Use schnapps and moonshine.

Doesn't change my point about avoiding the debuff while grinding. Doesn't matter what you drink.

[anmana]

One can only wait for the debuffs regarding the Hardcoremode. Maybe there will be some interesting debuffs with which food and drinking becomes way more important and way more difficult to obtain when not having money.

[Firelock]

Medieval times were, contrary to popular belief, NOT constant hunger and starvation. especially out in the countryside and villages.

There may be a bit of too much food just lying around abandoned here and there, but then again, on farmsteads, there is nowhere near enough. A single farmstead has in it's cellars and barns the food supplies for the multiple people living their for the whole freaking year, or, in summer, about half or quarter of a year, until next harvesting season is in.

But putting that much stuff in the game would truly break the 'economy'

Do you know, what I think is the probem? Inventory capacity, encumberance and traders.

Wear a longsowrd (or arming sword) at your belt and then think how many swords you can realistically carry before you cant move effectively anymore. How many shields. How many pieces of simple clothing.

It's a gaming convention to have inventory space, and lots of it. Ideally, every item should have both a weight and a bulk value, and your carry capacity should be near zero without backpacks, snapsacks etc. and even then, severely limited.

I've done some reenacting and you know what already half-suffocates you out in the summer on the field? a Canteen with 2-3 pints of water (1-1.5l) a cartridge pouch carrying 30-ish rounds of ready made musket ammunition, that waistbelt barrying nothing but a bayonet is going to be a nuissance when walking long distance, the haversack carrying a few days provisions, the blanket and/or overcoat you might hope to have, and that knapsack you use to carry your weapons cleaning kit, maybe a bar of soap, a spare shirt and a few stockings....

You couldn't possibly pick up an armour and then put it on. let alone carry a small town armoury with ya to the next trader.

And most traders would not have bought stuff from you either. nor would every randm strangers looted gear fit you.

THAT alone, a realistic(ish) inventory system, would make food hard to have with you, constantly, and prevent you flushing the economy with stolen loot, BUT would be such a pain in the arse, that I doubt many players would enjoy it.

[Nautica Malone]

Originally posted by Baron01:

I'm honestly confused by the wall of text in the OP. Is it a cry for help?

Ultimately, if you are looking for a game that is not fun to play, i'm sure you can find some survival game that will cater to your weird tastes. There is also hardcore mode coming soon, which apparently should reduce how plentiful things are across the whole game. Last remedy is to look for mods that adjust certain aspects of the game to your liking--something like Misery or Anomaly for Stalker games.

If you think that wouldn't be 'fun' then remove the hunger bar and food from the game, because right now it serves no purpose other than some annoying thing you need to click on in order to effortlessly fill every once in a while with zero difficulty.

Originally posted by Firelock:

Medieval times were, contrary to popular belief, NOT constant hunger and starvation. especially out in the countryside and villages.

There may be a bit of too much food just lying around abandoned here and there, but then again, on farmsteads, there is nowhere near enough. A single farmstead has in it's cellars and barns the food supplies for the multiple people living their for the whole freaking year, or, in summer, about half or quarter of a year, until next harvesting season is in.

But putting that much stuff in the game would truly break the 'economy'

Do you know, what I think is the probem? Inventory capacity, encumberance and traders.

Wear a longsowrd (or arming sword) at your belt and then think how many swords you can realistically carry before you cant move effectively anymore. How many shields. How many pieces of simple clothing.

It's a gaming convention to have inventory space, and lots of it. Ideally, every item should have both a weight and a bulk value, and your carry capacity should be near zero without backpacks, snapsacks etc. and even then, severely limited.

I've done some reenacting and you know what already half-suffocates you out in the summer on the field? a Canteen with 2-3 pints of water (1-1.5l) a cartridge pouch carrying 30-ish rounds of ready made musket ammunition, that waistbelt barrying nothing but a bayonet is going to be a nuissance when walking long distance, the haversack carrying a few days provisions, the blanket and/or overcoat you might hope to have, and that knapsack you use to carry your weapons cleaning kit, maybe a bar of soap, a spare shirt and a few stockings....

You couldn't possibly pick up an armour and then put it on. let alone carry a small town armoury with ya to the next trader.

And most traders would not have bought stuff from you either. nor would every randm strangers looted gear fit you.

THAT alone, a realistic(ish) inventory system, would make food hard to have with you, constantly, and prevent you flushing the economy with stolen loot, BUT would be such a pain in the arse, that I doubt many players would enjoy it.

It may not have been an all year-round starvation-fest but as you say, the farmstead has food for the large family and farmhands living there, in addition to whatever they might be selling to the towns and their feudal responsibility of supplying the entire kingdom, especially in wartime. And of course last through the winter and droughts and unproductive harvests.

It's in storage for a reason, and likely rationed, they wouldn't be able to snack or feast like kings on it whenever they pleased. Pretty sure they wouldn't have access to infinite wine barrels either which is the most expensive and rare drink out there and it wouldn't satiate you.

I did mention the problems with the drying racks for example and instant actions, it's not just the inventory system. Not only would you need a wagon to carry 50 slabs of meat from a slain horse on the roadside, it would take you hours upon hours, and in the real world you also wouldn't be coming across 1/100000 as many dead horses and wolves as you do in the game.

Furthermore the *type* of food you'd be hauling off from a farmstead's 'year-long reserves' is mostly going to be sacks of flour and oats and so forth, it would be nearly impossible for you to covertly steal anything meaningful for yourself, and there would be like a dozen farmers or guards waiting for you by the time you make a 2nd round to exhaust even 0.1% of those supplies.

One way or the other, you'd still have infinite more food scarcity than Henry is currently experiencing, so overhaul whichever system you see fit.

[k4Qu]

idk why they even stuck with having the mechanic ingame anyways, its so irrelevant. they couldve made something meaningful out of it where u get to know the historic meals and eating traditions bit by bit while maintaining the well fed buff or something. but the devs of this game unfortunately are a bunch of boomers that arnt really good at game design. there isnt a lot of 'gameplay' in this thats good or not straight out bad. the game is getting carried hard by the visual and environmental design.

[Baron01]

Originally posted by Nautica Malone:

Originally posted by Baron01:

I'm honestly confused by the wall of text in the OP. Is it a cry for help?

Ultimately, if you are looking for a game that is not fun to play, i'm sure you can find some survival game that will cater to your weird tastes. There is also hardcore mode coming soon, which apparently should reduce how plentiful things are across the whole game. Last remedy is to look for mods that adjust certain aspects of the game to your liking--something like Misery or Anomaly for Stalker games.

If you think that wouldn't be 'fun' then remove the hunger bar and food from the game, because right now it serves no purpose other than some annoying thing you need to click on in order to effortlessly fill every once in a while with zero difficulty.

...

What we currently have is relatively low stake survival mechanic that not very intrusive but it still let you role play and if you want you can maintain nice to have buff via perk and keeping your diet healthy. KCD games are RPG first and foremost with some muted elements of survival. What we currently have in the game is absolutely fine with me in terms of how much time or effort I have to spent in keeping my character well fed.

Would cooking and some advanced recipes make sense or be nice addition to the game? Sure, another mini game to get a bit more immersion into the game would be fine. However, this does not mean I would want to make any of the survival mechanics more aggressive.

Again, what we have in KCD2 in terms how pronounced the survival elements are is fine. The over-abundance of loots, including food, will be addressed in hardcore mode, or some mods in the future.

[Yoloswaggins]

Originally posted by Baron01:

I'm honestly confused by the wall of text in the OP. Is it a cry for help?

Ultimately, if you are looking for a game that is not fun to play, i'm sure you can find some survival game that will cater to your weird tastes. There is also hardcore mode coming soon, which apparently should reduce how plentiful things are across the whole game. Last remedy is to look for mods that adjust certain aspects of the game to your liking--something like Misery or Anomaly for Stalker games.

'a cry for help' really my guy, trying to equate someone thinking an obvious weird thing in their RPG game as some kind of cry for help.... bruh

[Nautica Malone]

Originally posted by Baron01:

Originally posted by Nautica Malone:

If you think that wouldn't be 'fun' then remove the hunger bar and food from the game, because right now it serves no purpose other than some annoying thing you need to click on in order to effortlessly fill every once in a while with zero difficulty.

...

What we currently have is relatively low stake survival mechanic that not very intrusive but it still let you role play and if you want you can maintain nice to have buff via perk and keeping your diet healthy. KCD games are RPG first and foremost with some muted elements of survival. What we currently have in the game is absolutely fine with me in terms of how much time or effort I have to spent in keeping my character well fed.

Would cooking and some advanced recipes make sense or be nice addition to the game? Sure, another mini game to get a bit more immersion into the game would be fine. However, this does not mean I would want to make any of the survival mechanics more aggressive.

Again, what we have in KCD2 in terms how pronounced the survival elements are is fine. The over-abundance of loots, including food, will be addressed in hardcore mode, or some mods in the future.

Since the series is devoid of any bombastic Fantasy elements, part of the appeal is supposed to be a medieval simulator which is why you have drawn-out slow battles with a 'realistic' armor system and recreated crafting and alchemy processes. The game is not marketed as a narrative walking simulator, that's why it has the combat, trading and dialogue systems.

And food is pretty much the only part of the economy which doesn't tie back to combat ( Swords/Armor ) or Dialogue ( Clothes ) or both ( Books ). Grocers and Inkeepers and Farmers and Alehouse maids are among the most abundant merchants and you have 3 different facilities just for preparing food in different ways. And you could play the entire game without ever interacting with any of them.

It's definitely not 'fine', it's just completely unrealistic. It would be fun if I actually had a reason to find the best way of spending my groschen on a meal or had a reason to go hunting or foraging or relying on mead for a day because not much else was available and to feel reward for using a drying rack or smokehouse to conserve my best food for a rainy day.

It doesn't have to be hardcore survival 24/7, even games like Green Hell or The Forest have different settings for how chill your game should be, but as it stands KCD2 settings are on an automatic 'Creative mode' even though it's supposed to play as much of a role as in the game as armor or books, which it currently doesn't because it's worthless.

[theo]

It wouldn't be realistic if someone able to afford sets of plate armor and expensive clothing would be struggling with food in the midst of season.
And if grocers, farmers and innkeepers weren't the most common merchant type.

Regarding game balance it's also ok. Aside from honey having 31 nourishment which seems to be a bug. You mostly play with food spoilage rather than scarcity.
It could be a bit harsher which I expect from Hardcore mode.
Still there are those who complain about food mechanic being too harsh currently, anyway.

[Nautica Malone]

Originally posted by theo:

It wouldn't be realistic if someone able to afford sets of plate armor and expensive clothing would be struggling with food in the midst of season.
And if grocers, farmers and innkeepers weren't the most common merchant type.

Regarding game balance it's also ok. Aside from honey having 31 nourishment which seems to be a bug. You mostly play with food spoilage rather than scarcity.
It could be a bit harsher which I expect from Hardcore mode.
Still there are those who complain about food mechanic being too harsh currently, anyway.

It's not even about perfect realism. The only reason you can 'afford' plate armor in the first place is due to unrealistic quest rewards, unrealistic dice games, unrealistic encounters, unrealistic crafting requirements, and unrealistic selling of a whole bunch of assorted loot including random weapons and armor to merchants.

Your entire premise is only fulfilled through unrealistic mechanics, but the problem is that food items are just boring and useless and take up a chunk of hard drive space and development time despite serving no function whatsoever 99% of the time, reducing immersion and feeling of reward.

It's not about 'affordability' either. Stop scattering random luxury foods all over the map, stop giving infinite wine, add time requirements for butchering, drying, smoking and cooking, reduce the numbers you get, reduce the merchant stock, make them spoil faster, and mark down the hunger restoration on a bunch of them by at least a tiny bit.

I've been playing for over a week and never even purchased food once, because I can literally just get by on Saviour Schnapps, wine, magically unspoiled intact fruits and pancakes laying around, food on every bandit or body I loot, and if I kill a single wild dog I get enough food for another week of gameplay.

This is rock bottom in terms of realism, it cannot get any *more* unrealistic than this. Even if you have to do *slightly* unrealistic things by comparison to nerf it, at least the outcome would be a more more realistic in terms of actually having to think about how to get food or pay for it like anyone who isn't high nobility would.

If after all that you want to keep merchant prices the same and pay like 2 groschen every once in a while for meals, so be it. At least it would actually be worth *something* as a minor upkeep price 3 times a day, because right now it's worth nothing with how busted everything is.

[theo]

Nah you can afford plate armor because you're a video game character and gotta have plate armor. If it wasn't for those things you mentioned it would just be more tedious.
I wouldn't be against making it more tedious and realistic tbh. But food itself is fine.

Also I don't understand what delicacies scattered all around you are talking about. I only recall free food at the wedding, and when you're visiting noblemen as a guest, and other such events, where it makes sense.
In 1.2 patch logs there's even a fix for free food in the Jewish quarter, so if free pancakes occur at random places it must also be a bug.

Prices themselves are mostly based off real historical documented prices close to that time and place. So if anything should be addressed it's HOW you acquire money.
It's not that big of a problem when you don't metagame though. Meat for a week from 1 wild dog seems about right, but who the hell eats dogs and kills dozens of bandits every day?