Musa from Mali : the Claims vs. the Historical Sources

[TGS]

In a recent leak, it was revealed that the game will feature a Malian scholar-traveller named Musa. While the inclusion of such a character is not historically attested, as far as I am aware, it remains within the realm of possibility. This addition could offer players insights into a geographically distant culture, potentially enriching the experience.

However, a significant issue arises with some of the lines attributed to the character, particularly the claim:

Messaggio originale di Musa from Mali:

Overall, it is safer in our country – nobody will waylay you on your journey. And we treat women with greater respect.

To evaluate these statements, we must first establish reliable historical sources. Modern data cannot serve as a proxy here. Instead, we turn to accounts such as those of Ibn Battuta, a 14th-century Islamic scholar and traveler from Morocco (often compared to Marco Polo), who documented his journeys, including his time in Mali. Later chronicles, such as the Tarikh al-Fattash and Tarikh al-Sudan, also provide valuable information. While these sources are not without controversy regarding their origins, they remain the best available.

Claim 1: Safety
The claim about Mali’s safety may be rooted in Ibn Battuta’s account:

Messaggio originale di Ibn Battuta:

Among their good practices are their avoidance of injustice; there is no people more averse to it, and their Sultan does not allow anyone to practise it in any measure; the universal security in their country, for neither the traveller nor the resident there has to fear thieves or bandits: they do not interfere with the property of white men who die in their country, even if it amounts to vast sums; they just leave it in the hands of a trustworthy white man until whoever is entitled to it takes possession of it.”

Here, Ibn Battuta uses the term "white" to describe Europeans, North Africans (like himself), and Middle Easterners. However, he also records situations where safety was far from guaranteed:

Messaggio originale di Ibn Battuta:

From Zāgha the Nile descends to Tunbuktū [Timbuktu] and then to Kaukau [Gao], of both of which we shall speak later. Then it flows to the town of Mūlī in the country of the Līmīs, which is the last district of Māllī, then to Yūfī, which is one of the biggest towns of the Blacks and whose Sultan is one of their most powerful Sultans. No white man goes there because they kill him before he reaches it.

This passage highlights that safety was not universal, especially in areas like the mysterious Yūfī, which may have been a gold-mining region. A leaked line from the game also references this, where Musa states:

Messaggio originale di Musa from Mali:

It would never happen that we allow foreigners into our mine.

Overall, while the claim about Mali’s safety is plausible, it is far from absolute and depends heavily on the region being discussed.

Claim 2: Respect for Women
The assertion that women were treated with “greater respect” in Mali is highly questionable, if not outright absurd. This statement likely stems from a misunderstanding of some of Ibn Battuta’s observations and the omission of key passages.

One passage often cited to support this view is:

Messaggio originale di Ibn Battuta:

Among these people are remarkable and their lifestyle is strange. The men have no jealousy. No one takes his name from his father, but from his maternal uncle. Sons do not inherit, only sister's sons! This is something I have seen nowhere in the world except among the infidel Indians of al-Mulaibār. Nevertheless, these people are Muslims. They are strict in observing the prayers, studying the religious law, and memorizing the Qur’ān. Their women have no shame before men and do not veil themselves, yet they are punctilious about their prayers. Anyone who wants to take a wife among them does so, but they do not travel with their husbands, and even if one of them wished to, her family would prevent her. Women there have friends and companions among men outside the prohibited degrees for marriage, and in the same way men have women friends in the same category. A man goes into his house, finds his wife with her man friend, and does not disapprove.

While this account highlights freedoms—such as women speaking with men unveiled—it is important to contextualise Ibn Battuta’s rigid Islamic framework. What he perceived as "strange" or "remarkable" might not have been so unusual elsewhere. However, his observations should not be mistaken as evidence of broader respect or equality.

Other Evidence
When we examine other passages, a much bleaker picture of women’s status emerges:

Polygamy and Slavery:

Messaggio originale di Ibn Battuta:

Dugha, my interpreter, comes in with his 4 wives and his female slaves who were one hundred.

It was customary for elite men to have multiple wives and numerous female slaves.

Nudity and Objectification:

Female nudity was normalized for servants, slaves, and young girls:

Messaggio originale di Ibn Battuta:

Among their bad practices are that the women servants, slave-girls and young daughters appear naked before people, exposing their genitals.

This reality of female nudity was particularly evident in how women were presented to the Malian ruler. Ibn Battuta writes:

Messaggio originale di Ibn Battuta:

Women who come before the Sultan are naked and unveiled.

The text later specifies that even the daughters of the Sultan were presented naked, which might be explained by the fact that they were considered “young daughters.”

Female nudity in front of the Sultan is also highlighted in an episode involving the repudiation of the queen after an argument. Following her release, she remained persona non grata. When the Sultan’s cousins, who had initially celebrated her release, sought forgiveness from the ruler, they were required to strip naked to demonstrate their submission. Ibn Battuta recounts the incident in detail:

Messaggio originale di Ibn Battuta:

While I was staying in Mallī, it happened that the Sultan became angry with his senior wife, the daughter of his paternal uncle, who was entitled Qāsā, a word which means 'queen' among them. In accordance with the custom of the Blacks, she shares in the kingdom and her name is mentioned along with his in the pulpit. She was confined in the house of one of the farārīs, and the Sultan replaced her with his other wife, Banjū, who was not a king's daughter. People talked much about this and disapproved of what he had done. His uncle’s daughters came to congratulate Banjū on becoming queen; they put ashes on their arms, but they did not put dust on their heads. Later, the Sultan released Qāsā from confinement and his uncle’s daughters came to congratulate her on her release, pouring dust on themselves in the customary way. Banjū complained to the Sultan about this, and he was angry with his cousins. They were afraid of him and sought refuge in the congregational mosque. However, he pardoned them and invited them to see him. It is their custom to take off their clothes and come naked into his presence, which they did. He was pleased with them.

While the Malians were more accepting of female nudity compared to other cultures, it was closely tied to power dynamics. Slaves, servants, and young daughters were routinely kept naked, and even free women were expected to undress in front of the Sultan when seeking his favor. This anecdote underscores the fragility of women’s status in Mali, particularly among the elite. Even a senior wife could lose her position over an argument and be swiftly replaced.

This fragility among free women does not fully encompass the hardships faced by all women, especially slaves. Female captives were often dehumanized and treated as commodities, as seen in the Tarikh al-Sudan, which recounts the campaign of Sonni Ali, the ruler of Songhai, a neighboring empire and rival to Mali. The text states:

Messaggio originale di Tarikh al-Sudan:

Thus, when he launched an expedition against the Fulani and raided the Sonfo tribe, he sent a large number of captive women to the notables of Timbuktu, some as gifts to scholars and saints, and he instructed all to make them their concubines. Those who did not observe the duties of religion indeed made them their concubines, while others took them as wives.

This account illustrates how women, even those who were Muslim, were distributed as gifts, highlighting their dehumanization. For some, turning Fulani women into slaves or concubines violated Islamic principles, but this did not stop many from doing so.

The dehumanization of female captives and slaves goes further in Ibn Battuta’s most gruesome account, which reveals the horrifying practice of using slave women as food:

Messaggio originale di Ibn Battuta:

A group of these Blacks who eat the sons of Adam came to the Sultan Mansā Sulaimān with their amir. It is their custom to put in their ears big pendants, the opening of each pendant being half a span across. They wrap themselves in silk and in their country is a gold mine. The Sultan treated them with honour and gave them in hospitality a slave woman, whom they killed and ate. They smeared their faces and hands with her blood and came to the Sultan to thank him. […] It was reported of them that they used to say that the best parts of the flesh of human females were the palm of the hand and the breast.

This passage shatters any notion of “greater respect for women” in Mali. The fact that the Sultan regularly greeted visiting tribes of cannibals by offering them female slaves to consume demonstrates the extreme dehumanisation of these women. The text further implies that this was not an isolated event but a custom, with female slaves treated as literal meat for consumption—especially their breasts and the palms of their hands, which were considered delicacies.

The game has the potential to be great, but the mishandling of this character—with some extreme idealisation and a stark disconnect between his remarks and the grim historical realities—undermines the believability of the medieval world Warhorse i trying to sell. I just wrote that message in the hope that this will be addressed and hopefully corrected.

[NerV]

What the hell did I just read... having just one wife is hard enough!

[amazingbeavis]

Messaggio originale di TGS:

Messaggio originale di amazingbeavis:

Sounds like you don't have an answer yourself or you're afraid I'll refute it if you state it.

If believing that satisfies you, then so be it. I don’t engage in discussions for the sake of argument but only when there’s potential for meaningful exchange—and, unfortunately, I doubt this one would lead anywhere productive.

As for refutation, you’re mistaken. You cannot refute something that was never true to begin with. My expectation for the game is a believable representation of the 15th century. This is my personal standard, not an objective truth. It’s neither inherently right nor wrong but entirely subjective—just as your expectations about what the game should or shouldn’t be are subjective.

However, I do believe my concern resonates with many others. For example, if the game included a 17th-18th century Lorenzoni system repeating rifle, it would likely be criticized for its historical inaccuracy. Similarly, the inclusion of an anachronistic figure like Henry VIII—who hadn’t even been born in 1403—would frustrate players if he were featured in that time and setting.

Of course, some might accept such departures from history as artistic license. But who’s to say who is right or wrong? How much deviation from historical accuracy is too much? Ultimately, that’s an arbitrary judgment each player must make for themselves.

Look it's fairly simple to understand. If Warhorse depicted the Mali empire as a paradise for women, you would be absolutely correct.
But that's not what they did. Instead they have a person, a citizen of that same entity and a carrier of that same culture, say something that could be a lie, or could be what that fictional person genuinely believes based on his own personal beliefs, biases and morals.
So I don't see how it is ahistorical for someone who is a carrier of a culture of a people, to state that it benefits its people.
So taking what an NPC says as a gospel, that is not only factual but also adheres to our own cultural morals, is not reasonable.
Unless, again, you believe that is not just the position of the NPC, but also of Warhorse who lives in our context and is part of our broad culture.

[Liquid Shadow Cop]

Not reading all that, but it makes sense for someone from a different culture to tout their culture to be superior even when that culture (which includes slave owning and marrying children) sounds barbaric from a different perspective.

This applies to both Malian culture and how things went down in medieval Europe.

[Feels]

cant wait to be lectured by a muslim cannibal on the error of my ways

[TGS]

Messaggio originale di Liquid Shadow Cop:

Not reading all that, but it makes sense for someone from a different culture to tout their culture to be superior even when that culture (which includes slave owning and marrying children) sounds barbaric from a different perspective.

I already answered in a previous message :

Why would a 15th-century Malian bring up the treatment of women out of all things? Simply because a rigid North African Islamic scholar was shocked half a century earlier that married women could talk to other men?

You should look into critical writings about foreign nations from before the 19th century. You’ll notice that most authors do not bring up the condition of women at all in such debates, and when they do, it is almost never among the first things they mention. Bragging about your nation’s safety and respect for women above everything else feels far too modern.

There are countless things a 15th-century man would be more likely to boast about—his religion, past military prowess, or cultural achievements—long before mentioning the condition of women. Especially when we consider the grim realities of their actual treatment, such a claim feels completely out of place.

[amazingbeavis]

Messaggio originale di TGS:

Messaggio originale di Liquid Shadow Cop:

Not reading all that, but it makes sense for someone from a different culture to tout their culture to be superior even when that culture (which includes slave owning and marrying children) sounds barbaric from a different perspective.

I already answered in a previous message :

Why would a 15th-century Malian bring up the treatment of women out of all things? Simply because a rigid North African Islamic scholar was shocked half a century earlier that married women could talk to men?

You should look into critical writings about foreign nations from before the 19th century. You’ll notice that most authors do not bring up the condition of women at all in such debates, and when they do, it is almost never among the first things they mention. Bragging about your nation’s safety and respect for women above everything else feels far too modern.

There are countless things a 15th-century man would be more likely to boast about—his religion, past military prowess, or cultural achievements—long before mentioning the condition of women. Especially when we consider the grim realities of their actual treatment, such a claim feels completely out of place.

All you have to go on, is a screenshot, so you have 0 context.
For all you know, some events in the game resulted in a woman being treated brutally or killed. That could have sparked a conversation with the NPC who then would brag about how much better it is in his homeland. I highly doubt he just dropped in out of nowhere to tell Henry that in Mali they respect women and then went on his merry way.

[Liquid Shadow Cop]

Messaggio originale di TGS:

Why would a 15th-century Malian bring up the treatment of women out of all things?

Because he wants to flex his oh so superior culture on Henry?

[TGS]

The full context of the conversation has already been leaked. The character is comparing Mali and Bohemia, first noting that Mali is rich in gold while Kuttenberg has silver. He then goes on to say that travel in Mali is safe and that women are treated better. Finally, he concludes by mentioning that foreigners are not allowed into Mali’s mines.

[Feels]

"its okay guys, its the character who is lying, not the devs, they are totally based and redpilled trust me".

[TGS]

Messaggio originale di Liquid Shadow:

Because he wants to flex his oh so superior culture on Henry?

Why would a 15th century man from Mali even think that women treatment is something to brag about(especially considering the actual treatment of women, especially enslaved ones) ? Why not brag about anything else?

And why would the writers even thing putting that very specific quote in the mouth of this NPC even be a good idea? They know that the only black character will be under a lot of scrutiny, why not be cautious in the lines chosen for him?

[amazingbeavis]

Messaggio originale di TGS:

The full context of the conversation has already been leaked. The character is comparing Mali and Bohemia, first noting that Mali is rich in gold while Kuttenberg has silver. He then goes on to say that travel in Mali is safe and that women are treated better. Finally, he concludes by mentioning that foreigners are not allowed into Mali’s mines.

OK so sounds like the man is making a comparison and the women thing is one of several that comes to his mind.
So we're arguing whether it's plausible that he would mention women among several differences or not?
Now keep in mind, that the historical accounts we have are third-party. We don't have any Mali philosophers leaving us their writings so we can better understand their mindset, nor are they here now so we could ask. So quite frankly there isn't that much to go on, in terms of whether it's something that a random Malian could have mentioned (among other things) or not.
Framing it this way shows that it's just such a minor issue, in terms of historicity, that I honestly find very hard to care.

I think if we are honest with each other, the reason why this became an issue is not really the historicity, but the possible underlying motivation of the developer for including this.

This actually reminds me, this really happened: once I moved to another country and mentioned to my friend how much the tomatoes from my old country tasted better than the local ones. Tomatoes are not a huge part of my culture (or diet)

[TGS]

Messaggio originale di Feels:

cant wait to be lectured by a muslim cannibal on the error of my ways

Ibn Battuta doesn’t describe the Malians themselves as cannibals but rather as enablers. They are said to gift slave women as food to visiting cannibals as a gesture of hospitality and goodwill. Considering that these cannibals have a gold mine, it’s likely that the Sultan aimed to maintain good relations with them.

Again, this is according to Ibn Battuta, who also happens to be the sole source for all the other claims made by the Malian NPC in the game.

[TGS]

Messaggio originale di amazingbeavis:

I think if we are honest with each other, the reason why this became an issue is not really the historicity, but the possible underlying motivation of the developer for including this.

You are partly right and partly wrong. Yes, the sources we have are limited—every historical source has its flaws. However, since we may never come across better sources than the ones we currently have, we are forced to work with them as best we can.

As for "the possible underlying motivation of the developer," that is indeed the most intriguing question. They weren’t obligated to make the sole black character in the game boastful, so why choose to ground his claims in Ibn Battuta’s accounts, only to misinterpret, extrapolate, and omit certain passages to the point of distorting the initial claims and their implications?

I genuinely hope the developers realize this was a misstep and correct it—either by simply removing the line or replacing it with something more fitting and grounded.

[[Heretic]Rivga]

Messaggio originale di Bordric:

10 years old and wife number 5 was not unusual. Slavery and being a Wife was pretty much the same thing. Property.

It was not unusual in Europe too, the Church sent out a law that no one under 7 should be marrying people.
They did not do this for fun, they did it because it was happening.

Later the church become very strict amd said only girls of 12 and boys of 14 could marry.

[Blackbeard_teach]

Oh thank you, I cringe everytimee I see westerners use the Mali empire as an example of an impeccable African empire, which it was, but the same people then turn around and shame their own heritage for doing half of what Mali did.

Even before reading this post I knew the Malis had a Slave Military army