Momodora RutM vs MF : which did you prefer ? [spoilers]

[Mouxine]

I just finished Moonlit Farewell. I like the two games. MF is better with the art and the storytelling, but I think that RutM had a more fun gameplay.

RutM was minimalistic, fast paced, boss battles were challenging and memorable. Enemy placement was clever. I had a tons of fun doing casual no items or leaf only speedruns on insane. In MF, I feel Momo is slow, even when sprinting, i was tired of jumping (no air dash, high jumps on small platforms, too much wall jump), and bosses were too easy (leaf spam + heal almost always did the job, I didn't need to study patterns except for two bosses) . Slower movement and atk collectibles means MF is less simple to speedrun, I'm not ready for that yet. i guess I should enjoy 1hp runs instead to give some purpose to slowness. Boss arena is a huge improvement too in MF.

Items/sigil : RutM had more unique items to play with, even if some were overpowered. MF sigils are carefully balanced with game progress, that was nice to see, even if they felt a bit repetitive (most offensive felt like +15% dmg on proc/hit). I would say RutM is more charming because of variety here.

In a nutshell, I would say MF is more polished as a metroidvania, RutM has a more fun minimalistic gameplay. Anyway, thank to rdein for both games, I'm glad I played both.

[chill out]

Momofa has nicer graphics and sound, but Momodorum is a better game.
I wouldn't say momofa sigils are balanced with game progress, though. It's more like, you get the best stuff half way through, and some more stuff to use late game, but most of them are just useless until you get the best stuff anyway? So 80% of sigils are just filler or irrelevant, especially since there's not really any special requirement for the best stuff. It's just sitting there, slightly off the main path. In momodorum, the most powerful stuff was often hidden behind nomiss boss clears, which a normal player can completely miss, making it a sort of git gud to git gud.

[Calico_Magica]

The final boss was especially underwhelming with how quickly i shredded it. The only reason I died at all during it was my first attempt, and i didnt notice at the time that my health was set to 1. Maybe it was the fact that I had a ton of unintentional "training" between this game and the previous game, but bosses felt way too easy.

[Halfshell]

I preferred the older games but I want to hear the pov of someone that played their other games for the 1st time recently or after playing this.

[iriyap]

I also prefer RUTM, MF's moveset is just too basic. You can do a 3 hit melee combo, shoot a bow and roll. Then you get wall jump and double jump very early on. That's it, that's the whole kit. There are no active abilities or anything. It's just way too shallow for a 2024 metroidvania release.

RUTM had active items/spells, the bow was a lot more interesting due to charged shots, there was also the air dash, the cat form (which wasn't just for traversal, you could stay in it and fight enemies and bosses with a small hitbox, you just lose the bow), there was underwater traversal etc. And all of that in a much shorter game (aka much more variety).

Also, the stamina bar in MF is such a baffling design choice. You'll practically never run out of stamina when fighting. But you will when trying to move faster by spamming roll or sprint. So it effectively only exists to make getting around slower aka pad out the playtime, it doesn't make the game more challenging or strategic, it's just a buzzkill.

The sigils are largely uninteresting. And the good ones are found way too late when the game's about to end. The whole thing reminded me of the monster cards[shantae.fandom.com] from Shantae and the Seven Sirens, in that these passives are largely inconsequential and won't really affect your playstyle. I'd agree that hiding some of the more significant sigils (mana regen, triple arrows etc) behind no-hit boss clears would've allowed for much more replayability.

Bosses wise, the two Black Cat fights are by far the best ones in the game. Virtually all others can be facetanked. And some bosses like the meat blob in Demon Frontier really shouldn't have been in the game, it's hardly a fight, you just stand back and shoot.

Biomes wise, I again prefer RUTM. MF has some really boring and unappealing areas like Demon Frontier and Ashen Hinterlands, the first one is too dark, and the latter is almost black & white with very rough art assets. Overall I'd say that all the fun stuff (good biomes & bosses) in MF is frontloaded, did the game have a troubled development cycle? Because at a certain point (roughly after meeting the Fairy Queen) the quality just drops.

Not saying that RUTM is a masterpiece or anything, because it isn't and it's been outclassed by many great MV's that have come out since then (the game's almost a decade old, so it's understandable), but it's clearly the better game in this comparison.

Hope this isn't too negative, I've enjoyed the artwork and expanded lore, but the experience has left me underwhelmed.

[HGhaleon]

RUTM is a better game overall and much harder. This game seemed a bit too easy. While this game is richer in story and better looking overall, I do prefer RUTM.

[raynebc]

As others have said, both games are great and each has things it does better than the other. I'll agree that after binging both games back to back, RutM was harder overall. Some of the bosses in MF are pretty easy to kill by spamming attacks, but some behavior tweaks or balancing could help. I look forward to another game in the series.

[Yoshi #ForeverVirgin]

Except for the graphical upgrade and the soundtrack (MF has some banger songs for the earlier areas i just cant get sick of), it just struggles in pretty much any other category.

Storytelling was a bit of an improvement here, though it also came with some downsides. I DID enjoy the more fragmented and souls-like storytelling in RUTM, but I really would had liked some more initial introduction into the world.
Meanwhile, MF does actually give you a proper introduction and tries to throw in a good chunk of lore/world building in general, but its lacking the souls-like storytelling that comes along with exploration and meeting random characters.

As for pretty much everything else, I think the MF is a downgrade. The item/equipment/inventory system is much worse, the combat is not as interesting and the bossfights just aren't on the same level. And the more linear map design definitely was felt as well.

First, the bossfights: In RUTM they did vary in enjoyability, but overall they were really high quality. They had distinct patterns you could and encouraging to learn without too much fluff. Getting an unique item for a no-hit run was the cherry on top, but even then it was fun to do.
MF on the other hand, bosses devolve into slashing fests. Many of the bosses are just to cluttered with special effects, even worse with certain abilities (like the special hit from the awakened leaf or the holy swords from the sigils), the timings of attacks after the red circle indicator was different not just from bosses, but even for different attacks from the same monster, and there wasn't too much tactic involved in fighting them in the first place.

Which ties into the second issue: Combat. The biggest issue here is the addition of the stamina meter, which serve to real practical application in combat, except for pissing off the player. In most cases, stamina management is nothing you have to worry about, but with certain abilities tied to completely draining your stamina, it definitely can become a nuisance. While the 3-attack-combo is fine, the lunar attunement combo is absolutely trash and screws you up on a regular basis. And with all the nerfs on bows and removal of useable items, all thats left is to spam melee attacks.
And in my opinion, the nerf to the bow really wasn't necessary. Sure, some of the upgrades did make it absolutely insane, but in it's vanilla state it was mostly fine in RUTM. Yes, they could have toned down it's potential a little bit in order to encourage people to use more melee attacks, but for more accustomed players, there was a already a fun and healthy mix between melee and ranged attacks. But now, the bow is pretty much useless unless you do a potent shot, which comes with the downside of completely draining your stamina. Hardly worth the cost.

Furthermore, the lack of items is a genuine downgrade. Yes, some of the items in RUTM, especially the boss drops were super strong, but they did add some flavor to the combat and gave the player choices in what to use and how to play the game. But the sigils just aren't a good replacement.
They completely lack flavor text (making them a bit more bland), are ONLY passive and most of them are pretty useless in the first place. I noticed my excitement quickly dropping after I realized that most of the sigils I get are just not worth using.
I admit, the item system, especially the inventory management (with the cat sphere taking up an entire item slot) did need some upgrade, but sigils just wasn't it.

Lastly, the lack of metroidvania elements. I cleared RUTM about 6 times or so, on each difficulty, including insane. And non-linear world design made things much more interesting for multiple playthroughs. Since I tried to 100% most of them, efficient routing was a bit more complicated and I continued to optimize it, while going for the various achievements and difficulties.
Now, I only started my 2nd playthrough in MF, but I just don't see how I could properly optimize my routing through the different runs, considering the linearity of the game. And while this might be a bias on my side, but I felt the map layout and the design was also more memorable and easier to traverse. RUTM still had some annoying places (especially the starting area if you need to backtrack it), but overall it was pretty nice.
But for MF, I had to keep checking the map every time I tried to go from A to B, even though I have been running through this area 5 times already. And occasionally, I still got lost.

On that note though, the addition of a dedicated map button was a biiig help here. But the lack of dedicated button for the bow and lunar attunement absolutely baffles me.


Overall, I absolutely do get that they were trying to change up the formula of ROTM, but sadly, it just didn't work out. And it's not even a "nice idea, but weirdly implemented", in most cases, it's just downright bad idea overall. Don't get me wrong, MF is still a fun little game, but it's definitely not what I had hoped for after playing ROTM.

[smeredith]

Just finished today, and would have to agree with the majority of what was said above. RUtM is one of my favorite metroidvanias of all time, it's a compact adventure with very fun movement, great bosses, and the non-linear play was incredibly well done. Routing it was just fun, and there are a lot of nice challenges.

Moonlit Farewell was gorgeous, with great music as expected. But...the movement in general just feels so sluggish. I thought at first it was a Linux/Deck issue like Momodora 3 where the game was running too slow, but no it's just the natural movement speed. I miss the active skills in RutM and Minoria; Sigils are nice but just aren't the same. There are definitely so many sigils that just won't see any use because they do too little compared to a few powerhouses.

I miss the bow, early on it's practically useless, and early bosses punish you hard if you even try to use it. Later on it can get strong but it's really only useful in a small select group of encounters. I also miss having it on a dedicated button, holding up to use it just didn't feel good.

I also have to concur with the amount of effects, some bosses just got too busy and I couldn't tell what effects were dangerous and what I could ignore or didn't hurt me at all.

I don't mind the stamina bar for dodging, but dash stamina is just not fun... "Oh, I guess I'll walk slowly for a while while I wait for the bar to recharge" when traversing the map.

MF just felt a little too long, whether that was due to the more sluggish movement feel or whether there is a bit more padding I'm not sure. RUtM can be completed casually the first time in 6-8 hours, this took around 9-10 and felt longer. While MF has more bosses, most of them don't feel as memorable as Pardoner Fennel, the Arsonist, or a few from Minoria like Sister Devoir and the thief Frikka.

[Rhiya]

If I were to completely tl;dr my thoughts, they'd be that MF is about 2 points (out of 10) above RutM in presentation and about 1-2 points worse than RutM in gameplay and game design.

A lot of the presentational improvements are in the details, but they're really, really there. The backgrounds are excellent. Many animations are gorgeous if you take the time to look at them. Several of the music tracks punch higher than the tracks from the previous games. It all adds up to a good experience.

For me, the gameplay suffers in a few ways compared to RutM or Minoria. Before moving onto criticisms, though, I'd like to note that I've seen a lot of grousing online about how floaty Momo is, as well as how bow is bound to up+attack instead of a separate button. I want to go out of my way to say that neither of these bother me. I got used to how Momo controls within 5 minutes and the game is clearly designed around it. The jump and movement physics never felt like they got in my way.

Anyways, my criticisms:

• The game progression is linear outside of the snake's fetch quest, but the map layout doesn't actually support this linearity very well. (The way they chose to cut off paths in Lun Tree Roots after you talk to the fairy queen really speaks to this.) I personally like Minoria's map; a linear string of mostly nonlinear areas is fine by me. I also really love RutM's tight, more wholly nonlinear map, with its intentionally varied traversal routes and its hub and spoke-y design. This game sits a little inbetween them and doesn't really scratch either itch.
  • Springleaf Path looks like a hub at first, but the area is just too large to serve that function well. The entrances to the zones it connects are simply too far apart for it to efficiently connect them. In comparison, the distance between the entrances to different zones in RutM is tiny (and this is exacerbated by rooms just being larger in MF, if I'm not mistaken).
    
    
  • I believe the game punts you around pretty linearly in this order: KoHo, Springleaf Path, Lun Tree Roots, Fairy Springs, Lun Tree Roots, Demon Frontier, Ashen Hinterlands, KoHo and Moonlight's Repose, Ashen Hinterlands, the Village (via Demon Frontier), Font of Rebirth. I think the only opportunities you really have to subvert this order come from picking up dusts for the snake early (which I believe you can do as soon as you have walljump). The game won't penalize you for exploring—you still get stat upgrades, sigils, relics, and faeries for it, and sometimes you do learn places you can come back to later—but you aren't ever rewarded with progress unless you find the dusts early. The game heavily relies on fast travel to ease any backtracking as well; the zones are somewhat large and only weakly interconnected, and the place you'd most want to backtrack from (Ashen Hinterlands) is the single most isolated. The way the game linearly guides you around makes me feel like the game honestly would've done better with a more Minoria-like map and at least earlier fast travel, but the map is more akin to RutM but with any alternate paths intentionally cut off until the game says you can go that way. I don't think it's a great fit.
    
    
  • It's unclear to me why the fast travel spots are limited as they are. I would've expected every bell to be available.
  
  
• Traversal can feel slow. Stamina out of combat feels like it just keeps you from sprinting or using Lunar Attunement to go faster all the time.
  
  
• Many bosses simply had too much HP. Let me be clear: this isn't a difficulty complaint. The attacks the bosses have are telegraphed and fair, so there's not an issue there. Instead, it's an engagement complaint. The fights just drag on too long for the amount of things they have going on. I think nearly every boss in the game would benefit from having one to three more attacks in their arsenal and should still have lower HP even after that change.
  
  
• Major powerup progression is somewhat weak. The game leads with breaking red gates and sprint—not the best first impression, though I have to admit the invuln on sprint was good and clever and made me like it a lot more than I otherwise would. However, progress is pretty slow and there aren't really that many major upgrades relative to the game's runtime. Your big mobility upgrades are breaking colored gates, walljump, double jump, sort of sprint (because of the momentum physics), and lunar attunement (which gives you the super high jump etc. during the mode switch). That's really not that many for the game's runtime. Yeah, there are a lot of small goodies (sigils, stat up, companions), but that doesn't make up for the pretty slow pace of other upgrades.
  
  
• Powerups also tend to feel less useful than they could. I was shocked the game gave me an infinite walljump—a notoriously busted ability—but it quickly became clear there just weren't many places to use it, so it didn't matter. Sprint is useful, but sprinting to go faster feels as exciting as drinking water, and there's not a lot of places you're asked to use sprint momentum to platform (if any?). Lunar attunement? You could go the whole game without realizing you were just given a high jump. It's awkward. Double jump is fine, though.
  
  
• Coming off Bombservice's earlier games, there's kind of a dearth of limited use items that refill at bells and alternate attacks. Some of them are built into the sigil system, which is neat! But they're limited.
  
  
• Sigils are a mixed bag. I think some of them are cool and interesting, and there are obvious synergies. This is good! Some of them also have pretty minimal impact or are highly situational. This is less good when they all cost the same resource (1 slot) to equip. I also wish grimoire acquisition were ever so slightly faster, so you could play with more sigils earlier.
  
  
• Many minor upgrades (sigils, stat ups, etc.) don't have much of a puzzle or challenge associated with obtaining them, past figuring out which wall is invisible because you saw this room has a ? or an exit on the map and you sure can't see the powerup or the exit in the room itself. (Some do have small combat challenges, but they're largely trivial.) This can make collecting them somewhat unsatisfying because you're not really doing much to earn them.

Maybe more thoughts later? This is all I have for now, though.

[Logoth]

Reverie is better and it's not even close. The glut of tedious, stilted dialog, the simplistic combat, and uninspired ability suite (so far) just make this unremarkable. It's a marked improvement from Minoria but that's not saying much.

The zoomed out perspective and excessive use of the ripple effect makes it hard to see enemies in combat, which is annoying for those few times enemies actually have enough HP to recover from being stunlocked to actually retaliate... and that ripple effect is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ *EVERYWHERE*. You can't crouch anymore, charged arrows are tied to stamina and feel worse to use as a result, I could go on.

It's been a fine game to chill out with after a long day; but I was hoping for something more polished and difficult. Reverie just felt so good to play, so tightly designed, while being succinct and amazing to look at... I have to wonder what's different now? Was it a fluke?

I hate to be a jerk about this, but a lot of this stuff should have came up during playtesting.

[Emerald Lance]

I like both games about evenly for different reasons. They both do different things well.