Gender expression scale has some big gaps

[SpaceLion]

On some level I understand why the devs went for “feminine” and “masculine” on either ends of the scale, but because (from what I’ve read on the site) it’s not really gender EXPRESSION as much as Gender Itself (the site describes the scale as Male and Female “with a lot of in between”) I think it would genuinely be better to label it Gender Identity and have each pole labeled Man and Woman, with the non binary identities on a sliding scale in between. For one thing, this would be considerably easier to understand when it comes to the romance options’ preferences. For another thing, it removes some sizable issues my social circle ran into while trying to start this game.

1.) I am a feminine trans man. According to the scale, one aspect of my identity has to be erased. I either have to label myself “hypermasculine” (which is what equates to Man, according to the website) or I have to be some measure of non binary with a “feminine” (Woman, according to the site) lean.

2.) Where does someone who is non-binary but strictly feminine or masculine go? They might put themselves at either polar end, but again according to the site those spaces are really just man or woman. Is someone who places themself in the space before that “almost a woman” then, just because they lean feminine?

Mind you, I’m not accusing the developers of doing ANY of this on purpose or out of malice. Just pointing out the issues with the current system that kept me from really even being able to start the game.

tldr: the current scale labels being replaced with Man and Woman as the poles, the full in between scale, and the center label for those for whom in between isn’t accurate, would be a lot more concise and respectful than the scale as it is now

[lydocia]

I'm very sorry to hear that you'll be missing out on a great game by having it not exactly the way you would have wanted in the character creator you'll only see in the first five minutes of the game.

Most games have "male" and "female" body types. Imo it's GREAT that they already have it the way they have it, and it's roleplaying anyway.

[CuriousJess]

I believe they address this more in detail on the Discord if you’re interested in their responses. I read them the other day and it’s my recollection that they know it’s a flawed system but explain some the mechanics behind why they went with it.

It’s interesting to me this discussion with games because as more people are open to be inclusive we are seeing developers do that in different ways and sometimes that still means someone is left out in one game and then represented in another. I appreciate the conversations that come from that and think only good things can come from exploring these moments.

[FemChefSR1]

Originally posted by SpaceLion:

On some level I understand why the devs went for “feminine” and “masculine” on either ends of the scale, but because (from what I’ve read on the site) it’s not really gender EXPRESSION as much as Gender Itself (the site describes the scale as Male and Female “with a lot of in between”) I think it would genuinely be better to label it Gender Identity and have each pole labeled Man and Woman, with the non binary identities on a sliding scale in between. For one thing, this would be considerably easier to understand when it comes to the romance options’ preferences. For another thing, it removes some sizable issues my social circle ran into while trying to start this game.

1.) I am a feminine trans man. According to the scale, one aspect of my identity has to be erased. I either have to label myself “hypermasculine” (which is what equates to Man, according to the website) or I have to be some measure of non binary with a “feminine” (Woman, according to the site) lean.

2.) Where does someone who is non-binary but strictly feminine or masculine go? They might put themselves at either polar end, but again according to the site those spaces are really just man or woman. Is someone who places themself in the space before that “almost a woman” then, just because they lean feminine?

Mind you, I’m not accusing the developers of doing ANY of this on purpose or out of malice. Just pointing out the issues with the current system that kept me from really even being able to start the game.

tldr: the current scale labels being replaced with Man and Woman as the poles, the full in between scale, and the center label for those for whom in between isn’t accurate, would be a lot more concise and respectful than the scale as it is now

Hi SpaceLion!

I'm the one who designed the system, so I thought it would be best for me to answer this one.

We went through a lot of testing with the LGBTQIA+ and Transgender communities and it was with a fair bit of cooperation that we landed on the phrase “Gender Expression”. We understand that the few people we worked with are not representative of the entire community, and that some voices don’t speak for all, but we did our best and the feedback was overwhelmingly supportive.

As for the actual system, the only variable that defines your actual gender identity in game is whatever you decide in your head. The body you create isn’t connected to the gender expression in any way, meaning you’re completely free to place yourself anywhere on the slider that you choose. It’s not so much about what you ARE, but how others will view your character.

We know that gender is an incredibly complicated thing, and it doesn’t really exist in a binary way. Unfortunately though, games are made with numbers and formulas, and this was the best we could come up with to innovate on the male/female/other system currently used in most games.

For what it’s worth, after creation, you will NEVER see this information again. It’s not shown anywhere, and (in English at least, though we worked REALLY hard for this to be true in other languages as well) the Player is never referred to with any pronouns at all. This slider is only used to determine who is romanceable, and the chart has been made public to show how much room you have to fall within the desires of the NPCs. For the NPCs, it’s more about the characteristics they are attracted to, and you can define those characteristics yourself in anyway that you want. What “feminine” and “masculine” mean in this game is entirely up to you, we just needed some kind of way to give the NPCs some kind of sexuality.

For you personally, as a feminine trans man, my (VERY humble) suggestion would be placing the slider somewhere on the masculine side. If you want to maintain the feminine aspect, I would put it somewhere near the 2 or 3. If you feel you’re a perfect mix of both (fully feminine AND a man), then you could maybe even move to the female side and make a masculine looking body. Whatever you choose, it won’t alter your dialogue, pronouns, speech, stance, or anything like that. IF you don’t want to engage with the system at all, then I would suggest using the 0 (which will still give you a LOT of romance choices)

Also, I want to be clear again: the scale is NOT “Man or woman”. I know that’s how I sort of explained it in the FAQ, but it’s not fully accurate and I’ll look into updating it today. The slider was specifically designed to allow for overlaps in gender rather than “one or the other”. My goal with the systems has been to give everyone a space to consider their gender, whether it’s something they’ve thought about their whole lives, or someone who’s had the luxury of never having to think about it at all. To be honest, I would have loved to remove the whole thing entirely, but it was necessary for us to include the kind of character stories we wanted to tell.

I hope that clears some things up. Mostly I just wanted to convey that we really tried our absolute hardest to get this right, and we understand that some people still may not like it. Honestly, we’re sorry for that, and we truly hope that you’ll still be able to engage with the game in a way that works for you. <3

-Sydney

[Stardog765]

I appreciate the thoughtfulness you all put into this. Though I am sure my views differ greatly from most here on the subject that is not important to my question.

My concern and question is where I put that slider does it affect who I can romance in the game. Like If I make a mistake because of where I put my slider could that take a particular NPC out of my pool of romance-able NPCs? If so I hope we can get a cheat sheet on how that works and who and how it affects.

Thanks and good luck with the game!

[Ryterex]

Originally posted by Stardog765:

I appreciate the thoughtfulness you all put into this. Though I am sure my views differ greatly from most here on the subject that is not important to my question.

My concern and question is where I put that slider does it affect who I can romance in the game. Like If I make a mistake because of where I put my slider could that take a particular NPC out of my pool of romance-able NPCs? If so I hope we can get a cheat sheet on how that works and who and how it affects.

Thanks and good luck with the game!

The slider is only for determining who would be interested in you from a gameplay standpoint. Every character has a range of numbers that they are attracted to. A guide will arrive on the wiki in the coming weeks, but for now you are better off playing the game and enjoying it for what it is while people make those. The devs want you to see the characters as people more than just trying to minmax who you wanna be with. Have fun with it!

[Stardog765]

Right yes I do understand that and appreciate that. I think exploring who likes or prefers what is great and part of the game. I just meant a play through is an investment in time and if you start a play through where you really want to romance a particular NPC then 20 hours later you find out who never had a chance because of where you set your scale 20 game hours ago.

Not really about min/max

[FemChefSR1]

Originally posted by Stardog765:

Right yes I do understand that and appreciate that. I think exploring who likes or prefers what is great and part of the game. I just meant a play through is an investment in time and if you start a play through where you really want to romance a particular NPC then 20 hours later you find out who never had a chance because of where you set your scale 20 game hours ago.

Not really about min/max

It's more about the idea that romance isn't the be all end all to a fulfilling relationship with someone. SunnySide is about WAY more than who you date, it's about the bonds you form as a community. <3

[Stardog765]

That is also true and also a good point. I get that don't play it that way either but many do so was just putting that out there.

Thanks

[mametchi]

Originally posted by FemChefSR1:

Originally posted by SpaceLion:

On some level I understand why the devs went for “feminine” and “masculine” on either ends of the scale, but because (from what I’ve read on the site) it’s not really gender EXPRESSION as much as Gender Itself (the site describes the scale as Male and Female “with a lot of in between”) I think it would genuinely be better to label it Gender Identity and have each pole labeled Man and Woman, with the non binary identities on a sliding scale in between. For one thing, this would be considerably easier to understand when it comes to the romance options’ preferences. For another thing, it removes some sizable issues my social circle ran into while trying to start this game.

1.) I am a feminine trans man. According to the scale, one aspect of my identity has to be erased. I either have to label myself “hypermasculine” (which is what equates to Man, according to the website) or I have to be some measure of non binary with a “feminine” (Woman, according to the site) lean.

2.) Where does someone who is non-binary but strictly feminine or masculine go? They might put themselves at either polar end, but again according to the site those spaces are really just man or woman. Is someone who places themself in the space before that “almost a woman” then, just because they lean feminine?

Mind you, I’m not accusing the developers of doing ANY of this on purpose or out of malice. Just pointing out the issues with the current system that kept me from really even being able to start the game.

tldr: the current scale labels being replaced with Man and Woman as the poles, the full in between scale, and the center label for those for whom in between isn’t accurate, would be a lot more concise and respectful than the scale as it is now

Hi SpaceLion!

I'm the one who designed the system, so I thought it would be best for me to answer this one.

We went through a lot of testing with the LGBTQIA+ and Transgender communities and it was with a fair bit of cooperation that we landed on the phrase “Gender Expression”. We understand that the few people we worked with are not representative of the entire community, and that some voices don’t speak for all, but we did our best and the feedback was overwhelmingly supportive.

As for the actual system, the only variable that defines your actual gender identity in game is whatever you decide in your head. The body you create isn’t connected to the gender expression in any way, meaning you’re completely free to place yourself anywhere on the slider that you choose. It’s not so much about what you ARE, but how others will view your character.

We know that gender is an incredibly complicated thing, and it doesn’t really exist in a binary way. Unfortunately though, games are made with numbers and formulas, and this was the best we could come up with to innovate on the male/female/other system currently used in most games.

For what it’s worth, after creation, you will NEVER see this information again. It’s not shown anywhere, and (in English at least, though we worked REALLY hard for this to be true in other languages as well) the Player is never referred to with any pronouns at all. This slider is only used to determine who is romanceable, and the chart has been made public to show how much room you have to fall within the desires of the NPCs. For the NPCs, it’s more about the characteristics they are attracted to, and you can define those characteristics yourself in anyway that you want. What “feminine” and “masculine” mean in this game is entirely up to you, we just needed some kind of way to give the NPCs some kind of sexuality.

For you personally, as a feminine trans man, my (VERY humble) suggestion would be placing the slider somewhere on the masculine side. If you want to maintain the feminine aspect, I would put it somewhere near the 2 or 3. If you feel you’re a perfect mix of both (fully feminine AND a man), then you could maybe even move to the female side and make a masculine looking body. Whatever you choose, it won’t alter your dialogue, pronouns, speech, stance, or anything like that. IF you don’t want to engage with the system at all, then I would suggest using the 0 (which will still give you a LOT of romance choices)

Also, I want to be clear again: the scale is NOT “Man or woman”. I know that’s how I sort of explained it in the FAQ, but it’s not fully accurate and I’ll look into updating it today. The slider was specifically designed to allow for overlaps in gender rather than “one or the other”. My goal with the systems has been to give everyone a space to consider their gender, whether it’s something they’ve thought about their whole lives, or someone who’s had the luxury of never having to think about it at all. To be honest, I would have loved to remove the whole thing entirely, but it was necessary for us to include the kind of character stories we wanted to tell.

I hope that clears some things up. Mostly I just wanted to convey that we really tried our absolute hardest to get this right, and we understand that some people still may not like it. Honestly, we’re sorry for that, and we truly hope that you’ll still be able to engage with the game in a way that works for you. <3

-Sydney

thank you for what you do!!

[mametchi]

Originally posted by Sarditia:

If any LGBT (mental ilness) stuff appear in the game = hard pass.

no one wanted u anyways . snowflake. also ur pfp has a rainbow.. does that mean.. youre.. u know...

[mametchi]

Originally posted by Sarditia:

Originally posted by tamagotchi:

no one wanted u anyways . snowflake. also ur pfp has a rainbow.. does that mean.. youre.. u know...

Actually... no one wants you ;)

NOOO YOU GOT ME!!!!!

[JOtt]

I'm going to be locking this as it keeps going off-topic and people are insulting each other.