Badly written characters

[Varjag31]

There are some indirect spoilers in here.

I decided to replay the trilogy again (for 5th or 6th time) and I'm amazed how I never noticed just how badly written some of the main cast characters are and how sometimes painfully don't fit their backstory.

Ashley is the worst offender for me. As someone who took care of her family and then having a military background, she should be by definition a strong, based character, prone to self-control, who learned how to work within the confines of military structure, putting her own emotions on the back burner in order to fulfil her duty, yet she acts as a teenager most of the times, being snarky, immature and undermining your authority at every step.

Then Liara, a supposed asocial scientist who wants to prove herself because of lack of age and experience, who then throws herself at you with the romantic proposal at the second longer conversation junction that you had with her.

Kaidan, who is constantly whining about his issues with L2 implants. He could have been made into a much more strong character, fighting his inner demons. Maybe contrasting between his inner suffering and outer need to prove himself and not be treated any different.

Wrex, Tali and to a lesser degree Garrus are way better characters in my opinion because they manage to portray the multiple layers of personality, while staying consistent with their origin story.

Wrex is a member of a militaristic tribal society that fell apart. He is angry and cynical and in some way stoically resigned to his species fate, but he is strong, reliable and he grows to like you as you get a chance to prove yourself.

Tali is a woman, that has a childlike approach to the world because of their long isolation from everyone else. Everything amazes her, her enthusiasm is infectious, but it also makes her vulnerable. Despite it, she stays strong and reliable.

Garrus has this Dirty Harry thing going. He is generally ok, but he feels a little bit rushed. Generally his character revolves around wanting to take matters into his own hands, and then you resisting it, or encouraging it, depending on your char.

I generally end up playing with Wrex and Tali. Feeling like I have an angel and a demon on each one of my shoulders ;)

I really don't develop any relationship with the human companions. Ashley, as her commander, I want to send to clean the toilets with a toothbrush until she stops whining and Kaidan I just want to retire and send to sickbay. Liara is just tolerable.

Yeah all of this comes down to personal opinion, I just wonder did other people also notice, or it is just me becoming a grumpy old git over the years :P

[CrackeR]

The game was released back in 2007 and you want to spew negativity about how the characters were written in 2021 ? Seriously is your cup half empty or what ?
I personally , think it's a great franchise with maximum replay-ability! Maybe the characters could've used a little polishing, but for 2007 the game shined brightly and sold extremely well!
Ultimately....when it all jumps out of the fantasy, it is really just a matter of opinion and so i respect yours!

[Varjag31]

My goal is not to "spew negativity". In fact, I did mention both what I think negative and positive aspects are. There is no bigger agenda, just personal opinion, which popped up as I was playing the game again. If I wouldn't love the games, I wouldn't be playing them for so many years.

As I mentioned, maybe I grew into a grumpy old git and some things did not bother me, or I didn't notice before, do bother me now. Not to the point I will hate the game or anything, but to the point I start thinking about it and being interested in what other people have to say about the same thing and whether or not someone else noticed similar things.

We both agree that it is in fact a great franchise with maximum replay ability which in my book make these kind of debates that much more interesting and hopefully we can do the same in another 10 years. I don't think these things have an expiry date.

[KentukyFriedCat]

Im gonna talk only about one character you mentioned - Ashley. If you really think that a soldier not allowed to have emotions or stuf like insubordination never happens in life, then you are wrong by default. Have you ever worked with humans at all? They are all different just like it should be in a normal society. If one does not falls under your perception how one should behave does not make them badly written character. And BTW you can infuelce Ashley in first game in many ways so that her behavior can vary

[Malnificent]

I always felt Mass Effect suffered from the same dilemma that other science fiction series about humans and aliens such as Star Trek and others do: being ethnocentric toward humans as the diverse, unique, ambitious and with greatest potential on the galactic scale while having the least depth character wise. Aliens tend to be homogenous representatives of a few defining characteristics of their species, but in doing so they end up becoming more memorable (Spock, Worf, Data, Wrex, Tali, etc). What you described isn't exclusive to the human crew members in ME1.... I also found Miranda and Jacob to be very dull characters with uninteresting stories. I don't even remember what the Jersey Shore dude's deal was in the 3rd one. I only ever had the obligatory conversations required and never had him in my crew when I didn't have to.

Generally speaking, the things which made Mass Effect great were the aliens, perhaps because in writing in a diverse array of species with very distinct and unique traits, they become the true diversity of the series and end up stealing the show, unintentionally, away from the humans.

Figures of authority tend to command respect from the audience due to their discipline and dedication but generally overly serious personalities are often forgettable, possibly why Asari can often seem like the exception to the rule. Then there are human exceptions like Star Trek's McCoy with his unique personality and LaForge unique challenge he has to navigate that gives them inherent interest from captive audiences.

But generally, human ME characters are often forgettable to me. They come off as filler or place holders. Maybe it is the familiarity, knowing you have seen and heard it all before and instead find yourself eager to engage with the novelty of imaginary beings.

[StreamWhenGuy]

🤣👌 ok boomer

[Valden21]

OP, it kinda feels like you haven't had a lot of conversations with these characters about their respective backgrounds. If you do that,, you'll find each of them has emotional baggage weighing them down. That baggage is the source of much of their issues.

Ashley-Her late grandfather was a decorated admiral in the Systems Alliance Navy, but is permanently smeared in the history books for being the officer who surrendered at Shanxi. That decision, made in order to save the lives of his troops and officers, killed his career and made the Williams family name mud with the top brass. In turn, that has led to her family getting stuck with all the assignments that nobody wants, simply because they're related to the Admiral who surrendered at Shanxi.

Kaidan-When he was about 10 years old, he was inducted into biotic training with a bunch of other biotic kids; their primary instructor was a sadistic turian veteran of the First Contact War who couldn't let the past go. Said instructor began mocking and biotically beating a girl who had collapsed from exhaustion, a girl whom Kaidan had befriended, and Kaidan responded by hitting the trainer with a biotic-enhanced kick to the head. The resulting impact was such that it broke the instructors neck; Kaidan had just wanted the instructor to stop tormenting his friend, and the death itself was entirely accidental. Another thing to remember is that L2 biotic implants vary wildly in effectiveness, to the point of being highly controversial; there's no way to affect how strong any given set of L2 implants are, and Kaidan rightfully considers himself lucky to be only hit with migraines from time to time. Some biotics with these implants suffer constant debilitating pain, and the surgery to replace them with the much-better L3s is extremely risky.

Liara-Double whammy with her. First is that she's a pure-bred asari, which carries with it a HUGE social stigmata. Other asari basically whisper to each other about her behind her back, wherever she goes. The other problem she's dealing with is that her mother is Matriarch Beneziah, one of the most powerful and influential matriarchs in asari society. Because of that connection, other asari generally don't give her credit for what she's done; they just assume that Mama cleared the way for her. Those two things are why she prefers solitude so much.

[John F. Kennedy]

Agree with you a 100 percent on Kaidan, Liara, and Ashley. I find them so unbearable, wish I could just leave them all on Virmire. I think Garrus gets better as the Trilogy progresses (specifically ME 2), he starts off as cocky cop with a strong sense of justice, and when ME 2 comes around he begins to doubt himself after his vigilante team on Omega is wiped out. I usually go Wrex Tali or Wrex Garrus.

[APN34Z]

Originally posted by CrackeR:

The game was released back in 2007 and you want to spew negativity about how the characters were written in 2021 ? Seriously is your cup half empty or what ?
I personally , think it's a great franchise with maximum replay-ability! Maybe the characters could've used a little polishing, but for 2007 the game shined brightly and sold extremely well!
Ultimately....when it all jumps out of the fantasy, it is really just a matter of opinion and so i respect yours!

[Aethrys]

I think the most egregious thing I note with Ashley is that if you pick the direct responses on Eden Prime "Give me a status report, where are the survivors, where's the beacon?" etc. She'll later flip out and accuse you of constantly doubting her. I assume the trigger is just picking more option 3s than option 1s. Feels a bit jarring. You could easily chalk that up to major PTSD though.

Tali seems childish because... she IS a child, in ME1 anyway. She's still going through her coming of age. By her culture's standards she's essentially a college freshman.

[General Furry]

Originally posted by Malnificent:

I always felt Mass Effect suffered from the same dilemma that other science fiction series about humans and aliens such as Star Trek and others do: being ethnocentric toward humans as the diverse, unique, ambitious and with greatest potential on the galactic scale while having the least depth character wise. Aliens tend to be homogenous representatives of a few defining characteristics of their species, but in doing so they end up becoming more memorable (Spock, Worf, Data, Wrex, Tali, etc). What you described isn't exclusive to the human crew members in ME1.... I also found Miranda and Jacob to be very dull characters with uninteresting stories. I don't even remember what the Jersey Shore dude's deal was in the 3rd one. I only ever had the obligatory conversations required and never had him in my crew when I didn't have to.

Generally speaking, the things which made Mass Effect great were the aliens, perhaps because in writing in a diverse array of species with very distinct and unique traits, they become the true diversity of the series and end up stealing the show, unintentionally, away from the humans.

Figures of authority tend to command respect from the audience due to their discipline and dedication but generally overly serious personalities are often forgettable, possibly why Asari can often seem like the exception to the rule. Then there are human exceptions like Star Trek's McCoy with his unique personality and LaForge unique challenge he has to navigate that gives them inherent interest from captive audiences.

But generally, human ME characters are often forgettable to me. They come off as filler or place holders. Maybe it is the familiarity, knowing you have seen and heard it all before and instead find yourself eager to engage with the novelty of imaginary beings.

yep, I felt that too

[General Furry]

Originally posted by Aethrys:

I think the most egregious thing I note with Ashley is that if you pick the direct responses on Eden Prime "Give me a status report, where are the survivors, where's the beacon?" etc. She'll later flip out and accuse you of constantly doubting her. I assume the trigger is just picking more option 3s than option 1s. Feels a bit jarring. You could easily chalk that up to major PTSD though.

Tali seems childish because... she IS a child, in ME1 anyway. She's still going through her coming of age. By her culture's standards she's essentially a college freshman.

i dont see her as a child, but more like an young adult, her personality is vigorous and agitated, but she knows how to defend herself, she is a trained survivor, she can handle things.

[General Furry]

Originally posted by Varjag31:

There are some indirect spoilers in here.

I decided to replay the trilogy again (for 5th or 6th time) and I'm amazed how I never noticed just how badly written some of the main cast characters are and how sometimes painfully don't fit their backstory.

Ashley is the worst offender for me. As someone who took care of her family and then having a military background, she should be by definition a strong, based character, prone to self-control, who learned how to work within the confines of military structure, putting her own emotions on the back burner in order to fulfil her duty, yet she acts as a teenager most of the times, being snarky, immature and undermining your authority at every step.

Then Liara, a supposed asocial scientist who wants to prove herself because of lack of age and experience, who then throws herself at you with the romantic proposal at the second longer conversation junction that you had with her.

Kaidan, who is constantly whining about his issues with L2 implants. He could have been made into a much more strong character, fighting his inner demons. Maybe contrasting between his inner suffering and outer need to prove himself and not be treated any different.

Wrex, Tali and to a lesser degree Garrus are way better characters in my opinion because they manage to portray the multiple layers of personality, while staying consistent with their origin story.

Wrex is a member of a militaristic tribal society that fell apart. He is angry and cynical and in some way stoically resigned to his species fate, but he is strong, reliable and he grows to like you as you get a chance to prove yourself.

Tali is a woman, that has a childlike approach to the world because of their long isolation from everyone else. Everything amazes her, her enthusiasm is infectious, but it also makes her vulnerable. Despite it, she stays strong and reliable.

Garrus has this Dirty Harry thing going. He is generally ok, but he feels a little bit rushed. Generally his character revolves around wanting to take matters into his own hands, and then you resisting it, or encouraging it, depending on your char.

I generally end up playing with Wrex and Tali. Feeling like I have an angel and a demon on each one of my shoulders ;)

I really don't develop any relationship with the human companions. Ashley, as her commander, I want to send to clean the toilets with a toothbrush until she stops whining and Kaidan I just want to retire and send to sickbay. Liara is just tolerable.

Yeah all of this comes down to personal opinion, I just wonder did other people also notice, or it is just me becoming a grumpy old git over the years :P

yep, and not only the carachters, but I feel the entire lore is too shallow, or too unrealistic, like the other guy said (manificent), looks like star trek. Not a realistic lore I would say. Well, now speaking about the characters, I dont like ashley nor garrus, I almost hate them, ashley is a right winged soldier with a rude temperament, I would call her ethos as exemplar. She is racist and xenophobic, thinks only to herself or humanity in this case, she rely dont like aliens, and thats not something I apreciate to have in my crew. Now on the gameplay side, I never bring her with me since Im a soldier character and another soldier character wouldnt be necessary, I need tech and biotics, no more guns. Garrus, well, I think that if it wasnt by ashley's racism, he would be a perfect mate for her, they think almost the same way. Garrus is a law enforcer agent who disbeliefs justice and dosnt like the laws, he wants to make what he considers right by his own hands, this is a dangerous and improper behaviour, I wouldnt like to have such an anarchist in my crew. In the first encounter, he was trying to investigate the case deeply but was impeded by executor pallin, I didnt like palling doing this, and liked the fact that he wanted to keep investigating. But investigating is one thing, judging is another. I like executor palling way of think, no one should be above law. Plus, as a cop he should arrest people, instead he prefers to kill them. As a capital punishment disliker I cant accept such behavior in my ship. Now talking about his gameplay aspect, good turian armor isnt that easy to find, and he is too weak, doesnt help much during combat and dies pretty easily, I mean, he is always killed in the first ten seconds. Wrex, bro, I like and respect wrex, he is a strong willed warrior, not much intelligent (on human standarts, he is like super intelligent among krogans, cuz he can view beyond his point of view, like when he stood against his father, seeing that another war would probably extinct his race), but very wise. I really respect him, he has a good hearth at all, at least better than ash or garrus. On the gameplay side, garrus is a strong combatant with biotic powers, he is very good as companion, but since I got liara I stoped using him (to balance my squad. Im a full soldier, liara is a full biotic and tali, my other companion is a full technician) kaidan is... he is like the quiet student, he keeps to himself, wants to make things professional only, I respect that, and dont force to have a stronger relationship with him like friends, he is just a companion. His childhood wasnt easy and he was a victim of cruelty for a long time, since he was a child (I disagree with u, for me kaidan is always fighting his inner demons, his unpleasant memories and his painful implants) On the gameplay side, I never bring him with me, too weak, dies easily and dont kill much.. Tali is good, I love tali (I would like to romance her too, say thats not an option). She is a good combatant, an expert hacker/technician, full of knowledge. She is intelligent and wise, and as a pilgrim she knows how to defend himself and hand any type of circustances, she is a true lonewolf survivor. Her personality is of an adventurer, full of energy and hope, always seeking for the ahead. Her behavior isnt toxic like garrus or ashley's ones, she is respectful and treat others well. On the gameplay side, she isnt THAT strong, but good quarian armors are slightly easier to find than turian ones, and with a medical interface armor module she can be pretty tough, but as a master technician she has essential and good abilities that has proven themselves very useful during combat. Liara isnt thaaat much but if I have to romance her or ash I would certainly prefer her (like I did). She is inteligent and wise at least, dont worry about she throwing herself at u, she almost never dealt with ppl, especially humans, so she was just telling what she feels thinking it was something normal that should be told in any conversation. Plus, the developers wanted u to quickly starting romance with her or ash, like almost forcing u to romance in the game. She is young (and even ingenious, for humans, since our culture is very different from hers despite the similar phisiology and she spent most of her life learning only about protheans, but she is a kind person, always seek to offer her best, and to choose the right thing, and just like tali, she treats others well. And I like intelligent ppl. On the gameplay side she can be weak if not wearing a good armor or armor module, but her offensive side isexcellent. She isnt someone I would call as an experienced combatant, well she can be something like a soldier when necessary, but her biotic abilities are beyond the normal level, after rescuing her, she proven herself a very useful squad unit, and now I always bring her along with tali. With me being a full soldier, this is the perfect combination, and I like them both.

Now, speaking of it, nihlus would be a great companion, I liked nihlus much more than I liked garrus, I would prefer him instead, its too sad he died, he was a good person... f I had a female charachter I would even romance him, like I want to romance tali now, but now he is dead.

F Nihlus, I will always remember u as the companion I never had, ♥♥♥♥ u saren for killing nihlus and ♥♥♥♥ u developers for making him die.

[General Furry]

Lol I spent one ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ hour writing this text

[Varjag31]

With Ashley, I think her xenophobia is probably the only interesting thing about her character that doesn't necessary contradict her past. I thing it should have been explored in a more layered fashion. Maybe the character arc, where she is torn between her hate because of past events and present need to rely on aliens, where the events would force her to consider her feelings and she would grow. Similar to American history X for example. I don't think they explored it enough, they just threw it out there.

It's her impulsive behaviour that irks me the most. She is not someone I would want around me. Whoever wrote her, in my opinion, has a very shallow perspective on trauma. She just doesn't act like someone who is reliable, even though her personal story is that of a bigger sister, who took over the role of a parent for her younger sibling. Respect for authority would also be drilled into her, both from her family side, and her own service. She should have a hard time going against it - and again that is a missed opportunity to explore an arc where she is torn between her duty and her own feelings.

Maybe that is what they were attempting to go based on her behaviour, but they made it shallow. Kind of like if a teenager would write a love novel, with only thing they experienced in life is early high school drama. If she has some interesting bits of history buried somewhere in her backstory, they surely failed to bring it forward enough,

[Dethlane]

Ashley is an imbodiment of contradictions. She is religious and yet she is hateful. She is military "through-and-through" and yet she loses control like a freakish girl in puberty. She pretends to be understanding and then she reks it with next snake-ish remark. And so on. Tali in ME1, while officially still being a child (almost an adult), has way more maturity than this freak. Not to mention character (quarian angel compared to some imp).
Kaidan is hella blank. And he doesn't really show much character. Liara is hella naive (plus somewhat young, dunno in what proportion asari years equal to ours/related). Better than Ash as characters, not so much in amount of details.
Garrus and Wrex are ultimate bros. Tali, well, she's hella awesome, angelic even. IMO best characters throughout trilogy (Shep-Tali-Garrus being the ultimate ME trio).