Paid Creations are not the issue - Its the prices that sting...

[vonbleak]

Firstly - Creations (Creation Club) has been around since about 2016 or so with Fallout 4 and Skyrim so its obviously nothing new...

Having curated 'official mods' from BGS is a good idea, as they work with official updates and wont mess with achievements for anyone who cares, and they a great way to make/release lots of dlc, effectively, through Creations while they also work on larger big expansions like Shattered Space...

The problem is the absurd prices - The entire Tracker Alliance series (2-3 paid quests) should be 1000 points total for all of them, not 700 points for just 1 mission...

I would happily spend some real cash on Creations IF they were actually good value... But at the moment it just looks like a crappy cash grab...

[CurrySpirals]

Yeah, it's over priced (or so it appears, I didn't buy it). They've been doing this with additional content since Horse Armor though. People still getting mad. Bethesda could teach forum trolls a trick or two, they manage to incite people every time.

[vonbleak]

Originally posted by CurrySpirals:

Yeah, it's over priced (or so it appears, I didn't buy it). They've been doing this with additional content since Horse Armor though. People still getting mad. Bethesda could teach forum trolls a trick or two, they manage to incite people every time.

And people rightly complained then as they are now - Again its not the concept or the method its simply just the pricing and its the same issue all free-to play and live-service games have... Selling extra content is fine, but lets still treat our customers with some respect right...?

The funny thing is - If they lowered the prises and were just more forward thinking in terms of long term players - They could turn it all around instantly and then the trolls wont have anything to complain about...

Value and respecting the customer matters...

[Wrinkly]

Originally posted by vonbleak:

Paid Creations are not the issue - Its the prices that sting...

I disagree. Bethesda take 25% of the sale hence have less incentive to create a fully developed product at launch.

[Motoko]

so they finaly pulled the "paid mods" thing after the successful backlash ovrer a decade ago when they tried it and even Gaben himself came out and canned this whole idea?

[vonbleak]

Originally posted by Wrinkly:

Originally posted by vonbleak:

Paid Creations are not the issue - Its the prices that sting...

I disagree. Bethesda take 25% of the sale hence have less incentive to create a fully developed product at launch.

Not quite - I agree the game still is not quite finished but we are still getting plenty of free updates and fixes, so at least they are still working on it...

And its also which is why the prices sting for the Creations - which is my entire point...

I know the billion dollar company has no incentive in terms of the dollars... But why is that ok from the point of view of the actual players...? Its not i would wager...

But in terms of player sentiment and long time player satisfaction they have a large incentive to keep the majority of players happy and people buying into the Creations themselves long term...

And its simple... If they reduced the prices and were more fair in the content distribution itself it would go along way to reversing all the negative relations they are having... They would prob make even more money because more players would be willing to pay some money instead of just using Nexus...

Personally i would happily buy some creations if the value proposition was higher and more fair... At the moment i will be waiting for bundles/sales at the very least...

[Cutlass Jack]

Originally posted by Wrinkly:

I disagree. Bethesda take 25% of the sale hence have less incentive to create a fully developed product at launch.

So you imagine the development meetings went something like this...

"Hey guys, relax. We got a modder making a taco stand for Neon 9 months from now. We can take it easy and just release the game as is."

[Wrinkly]

Originally posted by vonbleak:

Originally posted by Wrinkly:

I disagree. Bethesda take 25% of the sale hence have less incentive to create a fully developed product at launch.

Which is why the prices sting - which is my entire point... I know the billion dollar company has no incentive in terms of the dollars... But why is that ok from the point of view of the actual players...? Its not i would wager...

But in terms of player sentiment and long time player satisfaction they have a large incentive to keep the magority of players happy and people buying into the Creations themselves - And its simple... If they reduced the prices and were more fair in the content distribution itself it would go along way to reversing all the negative relations they are having...

I feel the base game should have been better with paid skins being the icing on top for those willing to pay for them. Games such as World of Tanks do well selling MTs, some of which are £100, as the base game is good.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3267458301
That Overall rating of 60%, 58% on Steamdb, should have been a lot highter as the store page suggests.

[vonbleak]

Originally posted by Wrinkly:

Originally posted by vonbleak:

Which is why the prices sting - which is my entire point... I know the billion dollar company has no incentive in terms of the dollars... But why is that ok from the point of view of the actual players...? Its not i would wager...

But in terms of player sentiment and long time player satisfaction they have a large incentive to keep the magority of players happy and people buying into the Creations themselves - And its simple... If they reduced the prices and were more fair in the content distribution itself it would go along way to reversing all the negative relations they are having...

I feel the base game should have been better with paid skins being the icing on top for those willing to pay for them. Games such as World of Tanks do well selling MTs, some of which are £100, as the base game is good.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3267361049
That Overall rating of 60%, 58% on Steamdb, should have been a lot highter as the store page suggests.

To be fair they are still working on the base game and its still getting free updates/changes and additions like the coming land rover and things like that...

Indeed it could be argued all of that should have been in the game at launch - But at least they are still working on it...

I don't mind paying for more content - i mean that's literally what DLC is right...? So i have no issues with Creations other than i think its a rip off and the pricing model is predatory and kinda crap... The value is simply not there...

[Wrinkly]

Originally posted by Cutlass Jack:

Originally posted by Wrinkly:

I disagree. Bethesda take 25% of the sale hence have less incentive to create a fully developed product at launch.

So you imagine the development meetings went something like this...

"Hey guys, relax. We got a modder making a taco stand for Neon 9 months from now. We can take it easy and just release the game as is."

Pretty much *chuckles*

[Harris]

Originally posted by vonbleak:

Creations (Creation Club) has been around since about 2016 or so with Fallout 4 and Skyrim so its obviously nothing new...

There's actually two things that are new:

1) FO4 and Skyrim were handcrafted open worlds. Modders mostly worked to improve/fix/iterate/repurpose what Bethesda created. Take Gods and Worship for Skyrim - if there wasn't lore, temples, dialogues, quests and NPCs this mod wouldn't exist.

Starfield, however, is 1000 barren planets, which modders are expected to fill with content. So instead of making a game, Bethesda made a platform for the others to build a game on for them. In the past this used to be a joke, but this days it's become painfully obvious. And I can only see this new trend continuing, because it allows Bethesda to drastically cut costs and increase profits. In fact, they're incentivized to put as little effort into the game as possible - so that there's more potential to add later through Creations (aka Minimal Viable Product).

2) In the past Creation Club was used on a limited scale, it was mostly a few mods made by a handful of authors. What happens now with Verified Creators program is a large-scale outsourcing, and even modding teams are welcome. All leading to a reality that the game fully fleshed-out by an army of modders will probably cost about the same as a literal spaceship.

Originally posted by vonbleak:

If they reduced the prices and were more fair in the content distribution itself it would go along way to reversing all the negative relations they are having...

If they reduced the prices they would only achieve one thing - less money.

Let me explain how this works. You have Bob and you have Josh. Bob hates paid mods and will not support Creation Club on principle. Meanwhile Josh has no problem with paying and would love to enhance his experience with a creation or two... or three.

Let's assume a creation costs $10 and the price is lowered to say $5 like you suggest. Bob still hates paid mods so he's not gonna buy it anyway. Now Josh who actually would buy at $10 ends up paying $5 less to the company than he could have - if they never followed your advice in the first place.

Originally posted by vonbleak:

But why is that ok from the point of view of the actual players...? Its not i would wager...

Because people want more content for the game they love. I can speak for myself - I got about all CC for Fallout 4 back in the day, despite the prices and all the Creation Club hate, because that game is great and I love it.

Of course, Starfield is inferior to Fallout 4 so it stands to reason there are much fewer people willing to buy creations for it. Which only brings back my previous point - when the audience is limited, the company raises the prices, not lowers them.

Originally posted by vonbleak:

player sentiment and long time player satisfaction

I don't believe they even think in terms like that. By now they have tons of experience that suggests they're able to get away with pretty much anything. What's the point of all those negative reviews if they bought the game anyway? I wouldn't be surprised if TESVI is gonna have a ridiculous ultimate edition and preorders will still sell like hot cakes.

[CurrySpirals]

Originally posted by vonbleak:

Originally posted by CurrySpirals:

Yeah, it's over priced (or so it appears, I didn't buy it). They've been doing this with additional content since Horse Armor though. People still getting mad. Bethesda could teach forum trolls a trick or two, they manage to incite people every time.

And people rightly complained then as they are now - Again its not the concept or the method its simply just the pricing and its the same issue all free-to play and live-service games have... Selling extra content is fine, but lets still treat our customers with some respect right...?

The funny thing is - If they lowered the prises and were just more forward thinking in terms of long term players - They could turn it all around instantly and then the trolls wont have anything to complain about...

Value and respecting the customer matters...

I would guess they set prices based on market research. They probably have estimates how much they would have sold at $3, at $7, at $10. And they pick the one that’s most profitable.

Individual opinions on value are incredibly subject. Some people are happy buying $20 V Buck cards to get skins in Fortnite. But yeah, PR would be better if things were cheap or free.

[Shibubs]

Originally posted by Motoko:

so they finaly pulled the "paid mods" thing after the successful backlash ovrer a decade ago when they tried it and even Gaben himself came out and canned this whole idea?

Lord Gaben knows best.
I don't believe Beth has modders' interests at heart and this platform they have created benefits the company more.

Its really just a way to capitalise on the creativity and hard work of the modding community, which commodifies the whole basis of mods being a 'labor-of-love.'
We got some folk here that genuinely believe everything created in the world was incentivized by money....which is blatantly wrong and frankly, scary as a view.

If Bethesda wants to nickle and dime me for any extra content relative to their game and promote a service to earn extra revenue, they'll have to expect backlash (is already happening, there's no excuses against the objective happening) from this decision, especially given the timeframe, their track-record of dodgy business decisions + ethics and tone deaf attitude towards the game where they would prioritise a service to milk more from the community.

Originally posted by CurrySpirals:

It also really doesn't help when the whiteknighters here try their uneducated hand at logical arguments to defend a completely different narrative and put other peoples' concerns down.
Goal post shifting doesn't help anyone, and using it incorrectly just hurts the community further.....

[vonbleak]

Originally posted by Harris:

Originally posted by vonbleak:

Creations (Creation Club) has been around since about 2016 or so with Fallout 4 and Skyrim so its obviously nothing new...

There's actually two things that are new:

1) FO4 and Skyrim were handcrafted open worlds. Modders mostly worked to improve/fix/iterate/repurpose what Bethesda created. Take Gods and Worship for Skyrim - if there wasn't lore, temples, dialogues, quests and NPCs this mod wouldn't exist.

Starfield, however, is 1000 barren planets, which modders are expected to fill with content. So instead of making a game, Bethesda made a platform for the others to build a game on for them. In the past this used to be a joke, but this days it's become painfully obvious. And I can only see this new trend continuing, because it allows Bethesda to drastically cut costs and increase profits. In fact, they're incentivized to put as little effort into the game as possible - so that there's more potential to add later through Creations (aka Minimal Viable Product).

2) In the past Creation Club was used on a limited scale, it was mostly a few mods made by a handful of authors. What happens now with Verified Creators program is a large-scale outsourcing, and even modding teams are welcome. All leading to a reality that the game fully fleshed-out by an army of modders will probably cost about the same as a literal spaceship.

Originally posted by vonbleak:

If they reduced the prices and were more fair in the content distribution itself it would go along way to reversing all the negative relations they are having...

If they reduced the prices they would only achieve one thing - less money.

Let me explain how this works. You have Bob and you have Josh. Bob hates paid mods and will not support Creation Club on principle. Meanwhile Josh has no problem with paying and would love to enhance his experience with a creation or two... or three.

Let's assume a creation costs $10 and the price is lowered to say $5 like you suggest. Bob still hates paid mods so he's not gonna buy it anyway. Now Josh who actually would buy at $10 ends up paying $5 less to the company than he could have - if they never followed your advice in the first place.

Originally posted by vonbleak:

But why is that ok from the point of view of the actual players...? Its not i would wager...

Because people want more content for the game they love. I can speak for myself - I got about all CC for Fallout 4 back in the day, despite the prices and all the Creation Club hate, because that game is great and I love it.

Of course, Starfield is inferior to Fallout 4 so it stands to reason there are much fewer people willing to buy creations for it. Which only brings back my previous point - when the audience is limited, the company raises the prices, not lowers them.

Originally posted by vonbleak:

player sentiment and long time player satisfaction

I don't believe they even think in terms like that. By now they have tons of experience that suggests they're able to get away with pretty much anything. What's the point of all those negative reviews if they bought the game anyway? I wouldn't be surprised if TESVI is gonna have a ridiculous ultimate edition and preorders will still sell like hot cakes.

Indeed - I generally don't really disagree with any of that... However you are making some assumptions that i dont think are correct...

I agree that having 1000 empty barren planets was pointless from the start... I think having a much smaller number of planets/worlds would have been much better and then they could have been more like traditional BGS open worlds... I totally agree with all of those types of sentiments...

However we just have to deal with the hand we have right...?

I have issues with SF for sure, but i do like it and think it has a ton of potential - And that will of course come from modders... (On top of official updates/dlc/expansions of course)

I just think BGS could be smarter about how they monetise Creations so they dont annoy long term fans... As there are plenty of people like me who would happily pay for Creations if the value was there... They are just going after the whales and not the regular players and i think thats a mistake...

[Wade]

The problem is the base game is lacklustre in every aspect and empty. Now it's obvious they purposely made empty 1000 planets so you have to buy content at absurd prices. I think the next Bethesda game won't even have a title, you will have to pay extra 10 bucks to have game title displayed.

[CurrySpirals]

Originally posted by Shibubs:

Originally posted by CurrySpirals:

It also really doesn't help when the whiteknighters here try their uneducated hand at logical arguments to defend a completely different narrative and put other peoples' concerns down.
Goal post shifting doesn't help anyone, and using it incorrectly just hurts the community further.....

Um, what?