Creation Engine needs putting out to pasture

[BR B-263-54]

As the title says the creation engine is long past its viability in 2023, its almost embarrassing to see Starfield chugging along with loading screens and all in relatively small sized settlements.

Bethesda need to retire the engine and embrace something more modern like Unreal, the utility of which seems 100x more practical than what they currently have access to.

[Junders Plunkett]

Publicado originalmente por Jᴧgᴧ:

Publicado originalmente por Junders Plunkett:

I see you missed the part where I said whatever engine you have in mind. Anyway, in case its not clear, im a game developer and BGS games modder, and the engine is fine, thats my opinion along with nearly everyone elses who knows what their talking about, you dont.

/chuckle If I had a nickle every time I heard "im a game developer and modder" I'd honestly be rich.

Don't give two squats that you mod a game just released. I was modding for the original Unreal, prior to the year 2K, and have modded for every TES game since (just not for FO). The perspective you don't have is what was possible, and how games looked and played. The entertainment value used to be much higher, and games were usually on-par with each other in terms of capabilities.

Now we have engines that are used/re-used for different games, and if you don't keep up on extending your engine *regularly*, your new titles suffer for it, like Starfield has when using a 26 year old core. It's limitations are clearly on display for all to see.

You can continue to talk about the facts, or you can accost other posters, which simply shows a weakness in your debating position. Most people resort to the second, unfortunately.

Im legit, I graduated college for game development in 2017, been modding since 2016, I use to hate the CK and loved UE, but after working with both of them more, I... Still much prefer to use UE... However the CK can do anything and to say that its a limitation shows your ignorance.

[Chryseus]

Publicado originalmente por potato:

unreal is trash

both remnant 2 and immortals of aveum are on ue5 and both run like straight garbage

There is nothing wrong with the engine itself, as usual it's the trash developers that don't know how to optimise games.

[BR B-263-54]

Publicado originalmente por patrick68794:

Publicado originalmente por BR B-263-54:

But given the inherent problems that seem to be limitations associated with the creation engine, small maps and loading zones (New Atlantis has tiny shops loading in as new maps as one example) it clearly isn't fit for purpose in 2023 is it?

Look you can only stretch this leap of logic so far before it sounds ridiculous.

It's very obvious there are some deep seated flaws within the creation engine.

That isn't why they designed the game the way they did. They did it because they didn't feel like the amount of work necessary to move over to a 64 bit coordinate system (which is what they would need to do to allow world spaces that large) was worth the payoff. Epic finally added an optional 64 bit coordinate system after spending years of development time on it in UE5.2 and it was originally planned to be a UE4 feature but due to the complexity of the work it was only added this year. Converting CryEngine over to a 64 bit coordinate system also took CIG (the developer of Star Citizen) almost three years to do and get working properly.

They also load some small locations as separate areas to cut down on CPU resources needed for AI simulation. The only way to remove that necessity is to change how their games are designed. A new engine (especially not one that struggles with large numbers of unique AI entities like Unreal) would not fix that issue.

AI restrictions? A single Avatar stood behind a desk that acts as a vendor is going to overly suck CPU resources up is it?

Come on...

[Tahl]

Stop using this engine and do what? Start printing out copy paste unreal games? Maybe pay per install with unity? Or make a new engine to keep mod support and such going? So basically just recreate the creation engine for no reason.
No thanks.

Modders always fix half the ♥♥♥♥ and the other half could likely be worked with/around by Bethesda themselves. What they need to do is start using the assets they have access to and fix ♥♥♥♥ from the start.
Also, they need to stop front loading garbage they dont have the infrastructure to support. Like fancy pants shaders/Shadow renders that run like unwiped ass.
They have a great level design team buried in there somewhere that need a raise, and the 'hyper realistic photogrammetry scan matrix bs team' can take the decade off. Please and thank you.
They dont and never have made the best visual games on the technical side. They need to lean on the style over the tech.
Nobody cares that vampire survivors looks like 8bit had a baby with 720chroms, because its not trying to be the next Division.

TLDR: I was playing Skyrim couple months back. Some of that game still looks and plays really well. Bethesda needs to stop trying to be other games/studios and clean itself up while playing to their strengths.

[Skrain]

All the people crying about Creation Engine are the same people who would then cry after Bethesda changed it, and modding becomes harder, or just outright not possible.
Could you imagine the salt if you couldn't mod Bethesda games?

[Krudtugle]

Publicado originalmente por juskom95:

Publicado originalmente por BR B-263-54:

No they're using engines that have been changed from the ground up with their foundations written for modern times. The creation engine in Skyrim feels and looks suspiciously like Skyrim for a reason, complete with loading zones to boot.

Come on buddy, please just see the wood for the trees here.

LOL, you don't know much, do you?

Those engines weren't rewritten from the 'ground up,' and the Creation Engine has been changed for each release. Bethesda just doesn't re-sell the engine, which is not the same as other developers.

Basically you read something that you thought made you sound smart, but in reality it shows how profoundly ignorant/stupid you are.

It's been changed for each release, but they just can't manage to fix the fundamental flaws.
What does that tell you?

[Wrothbog]

Publicado originalmente por Sea Base:

Publicado originalmente por shlizzrd:

Simulate what? The interactable items? Cause that's about the only thing Bethesda is simulating, that other open world games aren't.

In terms of compute, the intractable permanent items are a huge deal. UE4 can barely cope with 30 non physics interacting player intractable objects without massive performance drops for example.

then don't use an already outdated version of unreal? they're 5-6 years away from releasing tes6. they should license the source to something flexible or get the IDtech guys to work on idTech7-8 for a new "creation" engine. why are you hung up on unreal apart from bethesda themselves having mentioned they might switch

[Eminem]

Publicado originalmente por BR B-263-54:

Publicado originalmente por Eminem:

so RIP to script extender?

only reason skyrim, fallout 4, and the like are still on peep's hard drives all these years are due to the amazing modders.

in the end, this game will be no different bruh

Nor necessarily no.

Create an engine with the same modding support as Creation but by this point it should be obvious to everyone there asking too much from the creation engine.

i remember back in the day Kingdom Come Deliverance developers released a modding toolkit hoping to catch the same fire as Bethesda games. The developers there even released a "How To Video". Yet it never took off. Probably cause the toolkit had a steep learning curve or the UI was difficult to manage and was limited in what it could do.

I just searched Nexus after all these years and Kingdom Come's most popular mods are still unlimited saving and bow reticle, heh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYqs_LDMf2E&ab_channel=WarhorseStudios

[juskom95]

Publicado originalmente por Wrothbog:

Publicado originalmente por Sea Base:

In terms of compute, the intractable permanent items are a huge deal. UE4 can barely cope with 30 non physics interacting player intractable objects without massive performance drops for example.

then don't use an already outdated version of unreal? they're 5-6 years away from releasing tes6. they should license the source to something flexible or get the IDtech guys to work on idTech7-8 for a new "creation" engine. why are you hung up on unreal apart from bethesda themselves having mentioned they might switch

Both of those engines are a nightmare to mod, which is one of the major selling points of CE games, of the Bethesda RPG's.

Then again, you're another hidden account who doesn't own the game so . . . yeah, you are %100 a troll.

[juskom95]

Publicado originalmente por Eminem:

Publicado originalmente por BR B-263-54:

Nor necessarily no.

Create an engine with the same modding support as Creation but by this point it should be obvious to everyone there asking too much from the creation engine.

i remember back in the day Kingdom Come Deliverance developers released a modding toolkit hoping to catch the same fire as Bethesda games. The developers there even released a "How To Video". Yet it never took off. Probably cause the toolkit had a steep learning curve or the UI was difficult to manage and was limited in what it could do.

I just searched Nexus after all these years and Kingdom Come's most popular mods are still unlimited saving and bow reticle, heh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYqs_LDMf2E&ab_channel=WarhorseStudios

Someone who knows nothing about scripting and very little about modding can jump into a CE game.

Despite how much people complain, the basic modding is amazingly user friendly.

[BR B-263-54]

Publicado originalmente por juskom95:

Publicado originalmente por BR B-263-54:

No they're using engines that have been changed from the ground up with their foundations written for modern times. The creation engine in Skyrim feels and looks suspiciously like Skyrim for a reason, complete with loading zones to boot.

Come on buddy, please just see the wood for the trees here.

LOL, you don't know much, do you?

Those engines weren't rewritten from the 'ground up,' and the Creation Engine has been changed for each release. Bethesda just doesn't re-sell the engine, which is not the same as other developers.

Basically you read something that you thought made you sound smart, but in reality it shows how profoundly ignorant/stupid you are.

How do I not know much?

Its the same fundamental problems with the creation engine have existed with every major release and continue to exist.

Again come on pal...

[Junders Plunkett]

Publicado originalmente por Crusader:

Publicado originalmente por Junders Plunkett:

The creation engine is more optimized for the type of games BGS make than any other engine, also game engines are malleable, you and everyone else talking about the engine don't know what your talking about.

Publicado originalmente por Junders Plunkett:

They considered it, but decided it wasnt worth it for what they would have to cut to get it to run well or at all on the console, its only 30 fps on the xbox.

So the engine the indie studio of a handful of people who made NMS used is better even on Xbox One for seamless landing, while the engine the AAA studio who made Starfield used is perfect even though they can't do the same thing on Xbox Series S/X or PC without substantial content cuts. Lol.

Maybe you don't know what YOU'RE talking about...

NMS is simple compared to Starfield...

[Sea Base]

Publicado originalmente por Wrothbog:

Publicado originalmente por Sea Base:

In terms of compute, the intractable permanent items are a huge deal. UE4 can barely cope with 30 non physics interacting player intractable objects without massive performance drops for example.

then don't use an already outdated version of unreal? they're 5-6 years away from releasing tes6. they should license the source to something flexible or get the IDtech guys to work on idTech7-8 for a new "creation" engine. why are you hung up on unreal apart from bethesda themselves having mentioned they might switch

UE5 has no improvements to help with that kind of game...
It's not built for that, just like how you dont see 4x grand strategy games on UE.

Im not hung up on anything, as you can see from the words I've actually posted, just pointing out that it's not an appropriate engine to people who think it would be a good replacement.

[Wrothbog]

Publicado originalmente por Skrain:

All the people crying about Creation Engine are the same people who would then cry after Bethesda changed it, and modding becomes harder, or just outright not possible.
Could you imagine the salt if you couldn't mod Bethesda games?

the scripting system is papyrus, the model format is NIF "netimmerseformat" how upset would the modders be to learn a new scripting language or use a different export tool...modellers will take 30 seconds to adapt. the scripters will take a little longer

getting rid of the creation kit for something that at a bare minimum used the maya interaction model would make life immensely easier. having a gui browser for assets would too. better snapping tools and a clutter hose would speed things up. a visual scripting system for world objects would be nice. change doesn't always mean for the worse. bethesda has to use the tools too

[lalala]

I wouldn't talk about performance issues, rather capability issues (technically possibilities like larger worlds, not fidelity) of the creation engine. It begs though question whats better, evolve it or use another engine. The choice seems easy, but it isn't.

What I can tell is, that in regards to capabilities (again, not visual/fid.) it kind of stuck somewhere close to morrowind/oblivion. If you played thouse games, most issues compared to new games you'll find will be recognizable.