The Problem with the Scale

[M]

hey explorers.

starfield is a decent game, but it lacks proper scale. I mean, new atlantis as an example. ought to be the new cradle of mankind, but is in fact a village with skyscrapers. I think, its hilarious.

and dont come to me like "mimimi you HATE the game!" no, I do not. I just recommend starfield gamers to open their eyes and check what they see. its there, like a book to read. use your eyes.

it wouldnt have been this laughable, IMO, if they faked a much bigger metropolis, just graphics wise, where we only can go to a special district or area, like the one that is in the game now.

they already made this mistake in skyrim, which was released in 2011. by seeing the game, I just can come to the conclusion, that starfield is technically obsolete. its just old and this adds to the IMO mediocre game without any meaningful consequences of your actions in the main game.

cheers.

[Lunakibby]

I think it's just the limitations of trying to make a believable high quality world in a reasonable time. They absolutely have improved with scale over the years though, Solitude was tiny, but New Atlantis actually does feel quite large, and it has a whole underground section too of undescribed depth.

I'd rather them keep it as you are able to go most places you can see. I think having a real district surrounded by fakes would be odd.

Akila City & Neon i think they did mostly perfectly, they're visually small, but they feel quite large.

[AuddieD]

Skyrim has about 7 million people living in it but there are only a bit over 650 named NPCs in the cities.

EDIT: It was the same in the Fallouts. BGS has always just really scaled down the visual world vs the world on paper.

[Ihateeverybody]

Its actually a common issue in game design. Lets look at a few examples.

1. GTA5:. So fairly large City. the NPCs are bland and lack any value. Can't interact with them and while it looks like they have lives, they don't. Most of the buildings are not enterable and lack any purpose. Pure Visual Fluff.

2. Mass Effect: The Citadel. REALLY Big Place with alot of people. They Imply the size and population but you are limited in where you go. Again, when you do its only what they want you to see and do. Very Similar to BGS Locales.

3. Cyberpunk 2077. Very GTAish. Well designed Facade. Like in a movie. As long as you don't poke into the Backdrops you can pretend its a thriving bustling city full of life. Again its not.

With Starfield they started going in this direction. The Crowds which freak everyone out with their death stares are step in that direction. Will they continue it into ES6? Who knows. I will be honest, I prefer the NPCs with Schedules and crafted buildings (enterable). But I may be on the losing side of this argument.

[Lunakibby]

Originally posted by Ihateeverybody:

But I may be on the losing side of this argument.

Idk, I like the NPCs with schedules a lot more, but towns have to be made much smaller for that to really work out.

Although in Starfield I think this was actually an intentional design choice, in Akila City, you will mainly see NPCs that have schedules, have names, and have wants & needs, and it's where most quests are it seems.

Whereas in New Atlantis, almost everyone lacks individuality, everyone just goes about their day, few named NPCs.

I genuinely believe that distinction between the two major factions' capitals NPCs is too noticeable to be a coincidence. Especially with the themes & expressions of the factions.

[=CrimsoN=]

Originally posted by Ihateeverybody:

With Starfield they started going in this direction. The Crowds which freak everyone out with their death stares are step in that direction. Will they continue it into ES6? Who knows. I will be honest, I prefer the NPCs with Schedules and crafted buildings (enterable). But I may be on the losing side of this argument.

Same here. I will say though that Starfield does have a select few NPCs who have schedules. Just not all of them. Like store and shop keepers don't seem to ever go to sleep, but some NPCs (including quest givers) have schedules and will leave the area to sleep, eat, etc. it's kind of cool because sometimes you might end up missing a quest giver on occasion if you don't search areas. But you might catch them at a different time.

But you're right that it's not as prominent as in previous Bethesda games. I do miss the radiant AI, even though it could be super buggy at times.

[Faptor]

Originally posted by Ihateeverybody:

I prefer the NPCs with Schedules and crafted buildings (enterable). But I may be on the losing side of this argument.

Me too! It really adds depth and made me not-notice that this thriving, vibrant city only has a handfull of dudes and buildings..
Idk, I was playing Oblivion & Skyrim a few weeks ago and felt like I was rolling around a living world even though there wasn't thousands of guys walking around where Starfield sorta feels dead, ya know?
Its like they took a step back or a step in the wrong direction instead of improving on their tried, tested and true formula of every building being enterable and (almost) every NPC having some type of schedule.

Idk, we might be the weirdos here. I always enjoy that bethesda games let you pick up everything thats not nailed down. Why do I need 7000 forks? None of your Fn business! :P

[Mhorgrimm]

I have to agree - there is a lot of unused space even within New Atlantis that could have been used to flesh it out more and imply more life. The Waterfall Overlook should have a cafe, restaurant, or club there; the Residential area could use a cafe, more small businesses (liquor store, book store, another restaurant, a pub or bar, etc); Commercial district could use another restaurant, maybe a book printer (i mean where do all the books come from?), a few more corporate offices ; MAST district should have a school/college/university or something, and again a cafe or restaurant. I wish I had the modding skills to add in little touches to make the place even more inhabited.

[=CrimsoN=]

Originally posted by Mhorgrimm:

I have to agree - there is a lot of unused space even within New Atlantis that could have been used to flesh it out more and imply more life. The Waterfall Overlook should have a cafe, restaurant, or club there; the Residential area could use a cafe, more small businesses (liquor store, book store, another restaurant, a pub or bar, etc); Commercial district could use another restaurant, maybe a book printer (i mean where do all the books come from?), a few more corporate offices ; MAST district should have a school/college/university or something, and again a cafe or restaurant. I wish I had the modding skills to add in little touches to make the place even more inhabited.

if you aren't adverse to mods, I like to use this at least for the density of New Atlantis:
https://www.nexusmods.com/starfield/mods/11545?tab=description

The buildings can't be entered, but it does increase the "feel" of the city at least. Some of the screenshots are for Star Wars mods, but there is a lore friendly version. It looks like this:
https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/4187/images/11545/11545-1726282245-1761220489.jpeg

[Mhorgrimm]

Originally posted by =CrimsoN=:

Originally posted by Mhorgrimm:

I have to agree - there is a lot of unused space even within New Atlantis that could have been used to flesh it out more and imply more life. The Waterfall Overlook should have a cafe, restaurant, or club there; the Residential area could use a cafe, more small businesses (liquor store, book store, another restaurant, a pub or bar, etc); Commercial district could use another restaurant, maybe a book printer (i mean where do all the books come from?), a few more corporate offices ; MAST district should have a school/college/university or something, and again a cafe or restaurant. I wish I had the modding skills to add in little touches to make the place even more inhabited.

if you aren't adverse to mods, I like to use this at least for the density of New Atlantis:
https://www.nexusmods.com/starfield/mods/11545?tab=description

The buildings can't be entered, but it does increase the "feel" of the city at least. Some of the screenshots are for Star Wars mods, but there is a lore friendly version. It looks like this:
https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/4187/images/11545/11545-1726282245-1761220489.jpeg

I've looked at those and they seem "lore/immersion" breaking for me - they seem to be a part of the Star Wars mods ecosphere.

The additional locations I wish I could make would be 'load location' doors/places to reduce conflicts and the inability to modify the terrain.

[M]

Originally posted by Ihateeverybody:

Its actually a common issue in game design. Lets look at a few examples.

1. GTA5:. So fairly large City. the NPCs are bland and lack any value. Can't interact with them and while it looks like they have lives, they don't. Most of the buildings are not enterable and lack any purpose. Pure Visual Fluff.

2. Mass Effect: The Citadel. REALLY Big Place with alot of people. They Imply the size and population but you are limited in where you go. Again, when you do its only what they want you to see and do. Very Similar to BGS Locales.

3. Cyberpunk 2077. Very GTAish. Well designed Facade. Like in a movie. As long as you don't poke into the Backdrops you can pretend its a thriving bustling city full of life. Again its not.

With Starfield they started going in this direction. The Crowds which freak everyone out with their death stares are step in that direction. Will they continue it into ES6? Who knows. I will be honest, I prefer the NPCs with Schedules and crafted buildings (enterable). But I may be on the losing side of this argument.

the games you mentioned, cp77 left aside, are also a decade old. and even in cp77 Idk how the citizens park their cars in downtown. it just does not fit and I dont see progress over the years. thats all I wanna say. games are still primitive, like in 2010. why?

[CurrySpirals]

Smaller, but denser has long been a desire of mine for an open world game. I remember the promise of Shenmue, a small town where you could interact with everything.

It…didn’t work out.

[Ihateeverybody]

Originally posted by M:

the games you mentioned, cp77 left aside, are also a decade old. and even in cp77 Idk how the citizens park their cars in downtown. it just does not fit and I dont see progress over the years. thats all I wanna say. games are still primitive, like in 2010. why?

Because everytime they increase the ability of the Hardware, they place more demand on it instead of using the new tech to increase content.

I don't think I am explaining it right.

How much does Ray Tracing add to your expierence? That's where they focus their use of the Tech vs creating bigger places for you to experience.

Does that make sense. Its still not what I am trying to say but its a little closer.

[Exist]

Skyrim was such a better game than Starfield. I still play Oldrim unmodded to this day

[M]

Originally posted by Ihateeverybody:

Because everytime they increase the ability of the Hardware, they place more demand on it instead of using the new tech to increase content.

I don't think I am explaining it right.

How much does Ray Tracing add to your expierence? That's where they focus their use of the Tech vs creating bigger places for you to experience.

Does that make sense. Its still not what I am trying to say but its a little closer.

I think, I know, what you want to say. instead of making games better, they make the games not only look worse, but also increase system requirements dramatically with new tech. I do not think, that games look always better with raytracing, because it introduces grainy look in the picture, that has to be filtered away. all that costs performance. and with a lot of usage of TAA in games, they all look blurry, instead of crisp and good. strange times.