Crimson Fleet vs UC SysDef, Sad [Spoilers Within]

[oak]

For people who played Fallout 4, the Crimson Fleet vs UC SysDef factions storyline might feel familiar. It definitely reminds me of the Railroad vs Institute: the outcome requires the factions to have a high level of stubborn stupidity, no matter who you side with, and the ultimate outcome is the same scorched earth response: kill everyone in the other faction.

Railroad: Institute are making Synths (the things we're trying to protect)? Better nuke them and destroy everything
Institute: Railroad are trying to give Synths (the things we create) independence? Better wipe them all out

UC SysDef: Crimson Fleet rose out of the horrible prison system we created on the worst planet and are on the verge of having enough money to live comfortably and defend themselves? Better wipe them out
Crimson Fleet: We finally have enough money to live comfortably and defend ourselves from UC SysDef? Better slaughter their fleet

In an attempt to present the moral quandary in both cases it requires you to toe the line of the immensely thick NPC leaders on either side who cannot think of or consider another solution. Starfield in fact seems to double down on this over FO4, because even though some dialogue options towards less bloodthirsty options come up with the UC SysDef leader Ikande, who has a deep seated personal grudge against the Crimson Fleet that their journal reveals they don't enjoy pursuing, they will have none of it and shut you down. There should be an option to go to MAST for instance, report Ikande for using UC assets to lead a personal crusade at the cost of many UC lives & have MAST give you the authority to relieve Ikande and put Lt Toft in charge, who revealed they have a criminal past and was given a second chance by UC, so might understand offering the same to some in the Fleet.

The moral quandaries should come from things like "What do we do with Naeva and Delgado?" or "What do we do with Father?", not "do I erase this entire faction, or that entire faction". I hated this in FO4, I hate it in SF, because it's the least clever option :D

Siding with Crimson Fleet feels less "murder spree" than siding with UC SysDef, given that a bulk of named NPCs in the CF seem to be displaced former minor criminals (like half the Starfield NPC population, if you listen to enough background stories or read enough slates), but it also doesn't feel right to just wholesale slaughter the SysDef fleet either when it's really Ikande on a personal single-minded crusade. The outcomes seem like they would suit someone playing at the extreme ends of the paragon/evil spectrum, but no-one in between.

I really like the mission, most of the build up, and that some of the characters are as annoying as hell (is there anyone who doesn't want to space Naeva, Ikande and that jackass pilot on the Vigilance?) and others written to elicit sympathy such as Jazz or Toft, the ending just seems to fail to follow through on that.

One day, assuming modders take enough interest, someone will, I hope, create a mod that offers a more sophisticated ending like they did with FO4. Maybe give UC SysDef time to evacuate if they hand over Ikande or force a leadership change and some diplomacy, vice versa Crimson Fleet.

[LeftIsBest-James]

Crimson has the best climax arc in the factions quests.
But I prefer Riujin's JamesBond stuff.

[oak]

Originally posted by LeftIsBest-James:

Crimson has the best climax arc in the factions quests.
But I prefer Riujin's JamesBond stuff.

Agreed, Ryujin was good (could have been longer!) and the mix of steal v tactical was fun. The climax of CF vs SysDef though, you're right - well done (I just think there were less stupid options the NPC's should be open to).

[taylorj15]

Like the Crimson Fleet is pretty unapologetic about straight up murder. They will shoot you on sight and you can find buildings with their victims still laying on the floor. Kinda hard to make them out as "misunderstood" when they kill and steal from innocents regularly. Piracy isn't a victimless endeavor after all. Is Sysdef completely clean in the situation? No, but it's a bit stilted to frame them as being remotely comparable from a morale perspective.

In Fallout the Institute has a bit of a point on being potentially the best bet for the future of humanity. The Fleet not so much. It's also important to note that Sysdef would absolutely accept a surrender. Killing all of the pirates isn't necessarily their goal. Hell you can take a few of them alive if you talk them down or make the right choices.

[Tahnval]

Originally posted by taylorj15:

Like the Crimson Fleet is pretty unapologetic about straight up murder. They will shoot you on sight and you can find buildings with their victims still laying on the floor. Kinda hard to make them out as "misunderstood" when they kill and steal from innocents regularly. Piracy isn't a victimless endeavor after all. Is Sysdef completely clean in the situation? No, but it's a bit stilted to frame them as being remotely comparable from a morale perspective.

In Fallout the Institute has a bit of a point on being potentially the best bet for the future of humanity. The Fleet not so much. It's also important to note that Sysdef would absolutely accept a surrender. Killing all of the pirates isn't necessarily their goal. Hell you can take a few of them alive if you talk them down or make the right choices.

I agree. It's not a moral dilemma overall - SysDef is very clearly the better choice.

Crimson Fleet are more akin to raiders in Fallout than to the Institute. I don't know where the OP gets the idea that they're just trying to live comfortably and defend themselves. They range from killing people to steal from them to killing people for fun and stealing from them.

There are some members of the Crimson Fleet who are allowed to remain apart from the routine murdering that's the bread and butter of the Crimson Fleet because they're more useful in a different role. Jazz the ship engineer, for example. But they're a small minority.

[oak]

Originally posted by taylorj15:

Like the Crimson Fleet is pretty unapologetic about straight up murder. They will shoot you on sight and you can find buildings with their victims still laying on the floor. Kinda hard to make them out as "misunderstood" when they kill and steal from innocents regularly. Piracy isn't a victimless endeavor after all. Is Sysdef completely clean in the situation? No, but it's a bit stilted to frame them as being remotely comparable from a morale perspective.

In Fallout the Institute has a bit of a point on being potentially the best bet for the future of humanity. The Fleet not so much. It's also important to note that Sysdef would absolutely accept a surrender. Killing all of the pirates isn't necessarily their goal. Hell you can take a few of them alive if you talk them down or make the right choices.

Yeah, there are murderers. Maybe it's in the Crimson Fleet charter lol
But the UC response is overkill. Eradication of Crismon Fleet != eradication of piracy, but rather a vendetta driven by personal grief. Ikande's "war" tars every CF member with the same brush, except for those few you get arrested, and while there's an argument for "they chose their side", there are personal stories on both sides that show both have a fair number of members who are "grey" rather than fully aligned, there are many but two spring to mind: the philosophising pirate you meet with Barret early on, and Lt Toft.

If you chat with Ikande though, he's pretty clear - he has a take no prisoners resolve (Delgado isn't much better), if you save a couple through persuasion it's accidental to their aims.

The game intended for a larger space battle, and this gave it to us. It's actually pretty good, and I found it suitably challenging (maybe only because I took a ship under-levelled for that final encounter). It also fits the archetype "law" vs "criminals" trope which is to be expected in any RP game. I still find the endings shallow given the spectrum of individuals we meet.

[oak]

As a side note here: there are complaints about the story being rubbish in Starfield, and some parts are, but the fact that a discussion can be had about these factions regardless of position I think demonstrates that at times Starfield does provide depth to the NPC's in the world around us.

[indigo]

Well, that definitely seals the deal for me. I am NEVER playing a Fallout game.

Now that we no longer have to talk about Fallout, let's talk Starfield.

UC: These are the folks around New Atlantis. I don't much care for them.

Character Perspective: I just don't much care for these folks. They started and lost a war, I have no time for losers.

Player Perspective: Looks and feels like a military operation. That means expectations, regulations, and I'm not interested.

Crimson Fleet: They're pirates, really no different than Spacers, Eclipsies or Va'ruun. They're innately hostile, and shot at me first.

Character Perspective: They shot at me, I am obligated to exterminate every last one of them so they can never shoot at me again.

Player Perspective: It's a band of space-pirates. Kind of a thieves-guild-esque sort of thing. I never liked those quest lines, why would I like this one?

Then we have the Freeloader's Collective. They're the other side of the UC, same thing, different outfits.

Character Perspective: These Freeloader sort don't really have anything else to offer and their uniforms are actually uglier than the UC uniforms. Just another military organization that is going to want me to do things I probably don't want to. They can fight their own battles.

Player Perspective: Stormcloaks v. Empire. I cannot care.

Then we've got the Ecliptic, a bunch of... I'm not even sure what the hades they are. Hostile, aggressive, mad at the universe or something.

Character Perspective: I don't know who they are, but they shot at me. That's all the reason I need to bring about their extinction.

Player Perspective: Some oddball group of hostiles with nothing to offer, except abundant ships to appropriate.

House Va'Ruun: Some odd religious cult, like all religious cults.

Character Perspective: I don't know who they are, why they are, or why they shot at me, but they're going to die, every single one of them.

Player Perspective: A bunch of hostile religious nuts, but damn they've got nice guns and slick armor. Glad to skin and wear them.

So what does that leave?

Ryujin - a mega-corp

Character Perspective: You know what, I've spent the last years of my life mining ore for someone else. Now I have a ship, [expletive] everybody else.

Player Perspective: Sounds communist and I won't abide that. I also don't want a fake-job. I have 4 real ones, I don't need a fake one.

Constellation: An eclectic group of, I don't even know.. some psychotic twot who gets her crews killed, some weird guy with a kid - an actual kid, and few other oddballs who... I still don't know.

Character Perspective: You lured me in here, over some bit of scrap metal that causes hallucinations, make me take this uppity [expletive] with me, and now you want me to work for you? Take this [expletive] and this ship, and your artifact, and your Lodge and lodge them in your black hole. I'm out.

Player Perspective: This was the starter "learning curve" quest, and when I reached out my hand to touch freedom, Sarah stepped on my fingers and tried to cage me. I was too annoyed by the sequence of events to actually pay attention and still really have no idea what this League of Extraordinary Ordinary People is even supposed to be or represent. Sure, they come with their own, uniquely modeled mission board, and typically offer the most interesting and best paying missions (Find a [Trait] on a planet in [a system]), so I don't actually MIND those.

Explorer is my archetype and Exploring is what I want to do. It's also the most lucrative path, as nothing has any single item payout better than Exploration Data. Downside: Only one NPC will actually pay a decent price for it, and that fool is broke as a joke with nothing to toke. Most times I get to sell 2 data pads to him before he reaches 0 and I have to come back after his check posts. It doesn't bother me - just frees me up to explore some more. Eventually I'll get back to 0 "Notes" in my inventory again.

So on two fronts, I genuinely have NO interest in the UC, in the Crimson Fleet, in the Freeloader's Collective, in the Eclipsies, the Va'Ruun or Constellation. I know I will eventually get to exploring each of these in turn, just to see what content they contain, but that's really it - clinical curiosity at best.

In much the same manner, I generally held the Books of the various Elder Scrolls games in a similar regard - with a clinical curiosity more than anything else. Someone did take their time to write these, many were quite excellent written, academically speaking, and a number of them actually did tell an interesting tale - even if it took weeks of searching for Volume 3 before I read Volumes 4-11, ziss!

Nothing against any of it, most of it I found to be of quality, some even outright entertaining, and still working on establishing a Hermaeus Mora cult. It's just not what I want to invest my play-time in doing, so it can wait. I am, if nothing, patient.

[StormhawkV]

Originally posted by indigo:

Player Perspective: Stormcloaks v. Empire. I cannot care.

Not nearly the same. Neither of the two big factions in Starfield tries to kill you at the start of the game.

[taylorj15]

Originally posted by oak:

If you chat with Ikande though, he's pretty clear - he has a take no prisoners resolve (Delgado isn't much better), if you save a couple through persuasion it's accidental to their aims.

Yeah Ikande is obsessed but doesn't explicitly want to kill them all. That's a byproduct of ending the threat of the Crimson Fleet. If they had shutdown their weapons when Sysdef arrived they'd have just arrested them. If they won't surrender what else is he supposed to do?

[JOHN HELLDIVER]

Some of us like being evil. I remember in fallout new vegas when you could trick a bunch of slaves into believing their bomb collars were turned off and then they'd blow up.... none of that in this...