Where is the emergent gameplay?

[ilumino]

Last night while playing Starfield it finally hit me what is really missing compared to past games.

I think this is what most people mean when they say the game lacks "exploration". It isn't so much that the game lacks "exploration". There is plenty to explore (1000 planets!). It's just there is not much to find when you get there.

Starfield lacks emergent gameplay.

Think about it. In every other Bethesda title, you get constant reactivity to your choices. You're running along in Skyrim and suddenly a dragon attacks the village nearby. At the same time some bandits are chasing a guy into town. Some guards are shooting at the dragon, others are attacking the bandits. NPCs are getting killed left and right. Beautiful chaos has erupted right in front of you, and it is amazing!

And it's not just Skyrim, moments like these happen all the time in Bethesda RPGs. And I don't just mean action sequences like this. I mean the fact that past Bethesda games were designed perfectly to create these neat situations that you would wander into constantly. For example, you'd be doing a quest for the thieves guild in Morrowind where you had to take down the fighters guild, and see something in the water, so then you go pearl diving, where you spot a hidden cave to explore, whilst dodging a cliff racer in a blight storm.
Fallout NV had reactive factions in the world, and interesting battle where you get surrounded by Deathclaws and mutants and giant bugs at the same time while rescuing an NPC.

Oblivion had gates popping up everywhere, and people hunting deer, getting attacked by a bear and daedra and trolls. They even had dynamic goblin clans that would go to war with each other if you stole their totem.
Daggerfall had faction quests which led you to real places in the world which would impact the villagers and guards. I once had to take down a coven of vampires in someone's house that turned into sheer bedlam, where the house owners and guards were getting flayed alive by the vampires.

Nothing in Starfield EVER feels reactive like that. I mean, couldn't they have added some sort of dynamic alien invasion, or random spacer attacks on the settlements, or space smugglers getting into a fight with the town? Or even Terrormorphs raiding random towns until you solve the problem? I mean, COME ON, Bethesda? Nothing happens in this game. Every faction, every quest, every location lives inside its own bubble. Nothing you do impacts anything. Why don't aliens or bandits attack my outpost from time to time? Things do happen from time to time, in space you can get hailed sometimes, but it always feels canned and cheap. It never relates or impacts anything else. Again, these "emergent" events are not interactive with the rest of the world like past Bethesda games.

Even Empyrion, a cheap indie game has alien base attacks built in. Same for Conan Exiles and Ark. I could go on and on with examples of games with reactive experiences (Dwarf Fortress and all of its clones). But Starfield still primarily uses static game design from 1992.

Reactivity is expected in modern game design. Even X4 can have random invasions and real-world changes based on NPC behaviors, market fluctuations, etc. Most games these days, especially RPGs, have something like this to one degree or another. Baldurs Gate 3 feels like the natural evolution of game design in 2023. It feels appropriately technologically advanced for today. It takes what we've learned about emergent gameplay to the next logical level. But Starfield gives us nothing, nothing even in the same universe of reactivity of BG3. That's why it doesn't feel like a Bethesda title to me. This is like a 1990s JRPG with boring quests.

I am just shocked that a AAA budget can't even compete in this regard to a tiny indie company. We're talking about a BETHESDA title here, for Pete's sake! I expected better than this!

/Rant

[jerrypocalypse]

It's there, it just doesn't happen as often. The stars don't align as frequently for these things to happen.

As an example of when I've had this happen - I was doing Sam/Cora's personal quest, and during the "defend from the assault" part of it (forget the actual name) where you help Lillian, there happened to be a literal horde of flying/floating wildlife around the area where the enemy ships land to drop off troops. I had a whole mine field ready for them outside the cache, but chaos erupted when they went for the critters instead of me. The animals had some sort of zap attack and ended up taking out around half of the enemies for me as I watched

[ilumino]

Originally posted by jerrypocalypse:

It's there, it just doesn't happen as often. The stars don't align as frequently for these things to happen.

As an example of when I've had this happen - I was doing Sam/Cora's personal quest, and during the "defend from the assault" part of it (forget the actual name) where you help Lillian, there happened to be a literal horde of flying/floating wildlife around the area where the enemy ships land to drop off troops. I had a whole mine field ready for them outside the cache, but chaos erupted when they went for the critters instead of me. The animals had some sort of zap attack and ended up taking out around half of the enemies for me as I watched

I have around 70 hours playing and have never seen or experienced anything like this. Not even close. I would have had at least one experience a session playing a past Bethesda game...maybe multiple times.
Guess you're lucky.

[tukkek]

There are plenty of gameplay-affecting bugs emerging from the code. Does that count?

[Alcohol Bear]

Hey, I didn’t read your whole post. One of my first experiences of planet exploring were baddies running after wildlife. The guy was a high level enemy chasing low level cliff racers. He got outnumbered and pecked to death. It was one of my first moments. This was back when I used a HDD.

[Jaggid Edje]

As someone already mentioned, it is there, it's just much less frequent.

There are YouTube videos talking about this aspect of game design that show map screenshots of various games and the mathematical precision of that sort of thing. Illustrating how developers use the "density" to evoke specific moods and feelings in the player.

It is quite intentional on the part of BGS that the "density" of that is far, far lower in Starfield than in their previous games. There's even a video where Todd specifically talks about it as pertains to Starfield and explains why.

For every player /ranting about the lack of it, there'd be one /ranting about how space feels too busy if they'd done the opposite.

[FREEZED]

Originally posted by ilumino:

Originally posted by jerrypocalypse:

It's there, it just doesn't happen as often. The stars don't align as frequently for these things to happen.

As an example of when I've had this happen - I was doing Sam/Cora's personal quest, and during the "defend from the assault" part of it (forget the actual name) where you help Lillian, there happened to be a literal horde of flying/floating wildlife around the area where the enemy ships land to drop off troops. I had a whole mine field ready for them outside the cache, but chaos erupted when they went for the critters instead of me. The animals had some sort of zap attack and ended up taking out around half of the enemies for me as I watched

I have around 70 hours playing and have never seen or experienced anything like this. Not even close. I would have had at least one experience a session playing a past Bethesda game...maybe multiple times.
Guess you're lucky.

once i traveled to some planet orbit and there were ship who wanted help to get something from middle of minefield, i refused to help as i was not interested to use time at that moment, and rest was hilarious to watch.

[tkwoods]

Originally posted by ilumino:

Originally posted by jerrypocalypse:

It's there, it just doesn't happen as often. The stars don't align as frequently for these things to happen.

As an example of when I've had this happen - I was doing Sam/Cora's personal quest, and during the "defend from the assault" part of it (forget the actual name) where you help Lillian, there happened to be a literal horde of flying/floating wildlife around the area where the enemy ships land to drop off troops. I had a whole mine field ready for them outside the cache, but chaos erupted when they went for the critters instead of me. The animals had some sort of zap attack and ended up taking out around half of the enemies for me as I watched

I have around 70 hours playing and have never seen or experienced anything like this. Not even close. I would have had at least one experience a session playing a past Bethesda game...maybe multiple times.
Guess you're lucky.

NO it's a slower play style IMO. If you strive for the end to fast you en up bypassing the little Easter Eggs they have put in the game. To smell a rose you to stop and smell the roses.

I came upon area where something is on Niira where you get the UC Robot (??name??).
I thought about searching around to see what was there but don't. I may go back and check it out without the story line running.

Checking ship and sensor contacts in the map can get interesting as well.

[jerrypocalypse]

Originally posted by Jaggid Edje:

For every player /ranting about the lack of it, there'd be one /ranting about how space feels too busy if they'd done the opposite.

Though I don't really /rant perse, I'd be on the "too busy" side. I actually wish the current game had a bit more "empty" feeling areas - specifically with the POI scattering on some planets. I'd love for more ship landing and walking explorers and less buildings dotted about in areas.

[ilumino]

Originally posted by Jaggid Edje:

As someone already mentioned, it is there, it's just much less frequent.

There are YouTube videos talking about this aspect of game design that show map screenshots of various games and the mathematical precision of that sort of thing. Illustrating how developers use the "density" to evoke specific moods and feelings in the player.

It is quite intentional on the part of BGS that the "density" of that is far, far lower in Starfield than in their previous games. There's even a video where Todd specifically talks about it as pertains to Starfield and explains why.

For every player /ranting about the lack of it, there'd be one /ranting about how space feels too busy if they'd done the opposite.

Sure, on the less populated worlds, interactivity would be sparse. But near populated settlements, you should see farmers and traders and merchants walking around more, getting attacked by fauna. Maybe some hunters going after the local mega fauna carnivore and then, *gasp*, mounting its head on their wall at home.
Explorers and bounty hunters, and space scum getting into scrapsin the many bars. There are beautiful bars and taverns in every settlement, but why the hell do I EVER need to enter one? To buy a space drink, when I already have my inventory loaded with food? Where are the random bar fights? Where are the thieves and assasins going after each other in the crime areas of the cities? Where is the Star Wars bar fight on Mos Eisley?

And general real-time reactivity is one thing, but I also mentioned how the game doesn't have many, if any, meta reactions either. Factions don't change based on your impact with them. Crimson fleet isn't going to start sending bounty hunters after me if I piss them off. There is no reputation system at all. Factions don't interact at all. Even an old game like Saints Row had factions that would come after you for going against them.

There is no overarching, global timer for X to happen either. Terrormorphs will never spontaneously attack settlements (this would have been a no-brainer system to add). It should be possible for Civil War to break out again based on world events.

[vonbleak]

Originally posted by jerrypocalypse:

Originally posted by Jaggid Edje:

For every player /ranting about the lack of it, there'd be one /ranting about how space feels too busy if they'd done the opposite.

Though I don't really /rant perse, I'd be on the "too busy" side. I actually wish the current game had a bit more "empty" feeling areas - specifically with the POI scattering on some planets. I'd love for more ship landing and walking explorers and less buildings dotted about in areas.

You want more empty boring space to walk through...? Really...? That does not sound fun...

[jerrypocalypse]

Oh, another one that happened to me (that was a bit unfortunate since it led to my death and I couldn't really do anything about it, but was interesting nonetheless).

I boarded an Ecliptic ship that landed, and it immediately took off, as they sometimes do. However, once in space, I start hearing UC ship chatter and ship gunfire. There happened to be some UC ships in orbit that started firing on the Ecliptic ship I was on, since they're hostile. I was trying to make my way to the cockpit as fast as I could, but the UC ships destroyed it before I could, resulting in my death as the ship exploded.

[Alcohol Bear]

Wow. What a story. You make a good point that the game events aren’t set in stone.

[ilumino]

Originally posted by jerrypocalypse:

Originally posted by Jaggid Edje:

For every player /ranting about the lack of it, there'd be one /ranting about how space feels too busy if they'd done the opposite.

Though I don't really /rant perse, I'd be on the "too busy" side. I actually wish the current game had a bit more "empty" feeling areas - specifically with the POI scattering on some planets. I'd love for more ship landing and walking explorers and less buildings dotted about in areas.

I actually agree with you. It is stupid that every. single. planet. Every square inch of every planet is loaded with NPC structures and ships flying around. WTF.

These should only be found on planets or near planets with a high pop density.

It's like they lost their talent to do what they did in past Bethesd games. They just plopped down "scatter" content in equal distribution across the galaxy and said, "there's your emergent gameplay, have fun!"

Even Morrowind had a good distribution of content. Wildlife was varied based on your location on the island. NPCs weren't wandering around Red Mountain, just monsters. Biomes and locations felt accurate the farther you got from civilization.

[lizzo(overturned bans x 69)]

op bought the wrong game.

[Jaggid Edje]

Originally posted by ilumino:

Sure, on the less populated worlds, interactivity would be sparse. But near populated settlements, you should see farmers and traders and merchants walking around more, getting attacked by fauna. Maybe some hunters going after the local mega fauna carnivore and then, *gasp*, mounting its head on their wall at home.
Explorers and bounty hunters, and space scum getting into scrapsin the many bars. There are beautiful bars and taverns in every settlement, but why the hell do I EVER need to enter one? To buy a space drink, when I already have my inventory loaded with food? Where are the random bar fights? Where are the thieves and assasins going after each other in the crime areas of the cities? Where is the Star Wars bar fight on Mos Eisley?

And general real-time reactivity is one thing, but I also mentioned how the game doesn't have many, if any, meta reactions either. Factions don't change based on your impact with them. Crimson fleet isn't going to start sending bounty hunters after me if I piss them off. There is no reputation system at all. Factions don't interact at all. Even an old game like Saints Row had factions that would come after you for going against them.

There is no overarching, global timer for X to happen either. Terrormorphs will never spontaneously attack settlements (this would have been a no-brainer system to add). It should be possible for Civil War to break out again based on world events.

Some of what you are suggesting is actually in the game already, you just haven't seen it yet.

There (sort of) are hunters you can encounter in the wild (though you won't see them mount a head). Terrormorphs can actually be triggered by settlements and combat will ensue. Though not (that I've seen) any of the hand-placed settlements like New Atlantis.

I was several hundred hours into the game before I ever saw either of those things, but I have seen them more than once at this point. I had to start going more off the beaten path rather than following the curated experience to start running into them.

I do agree with you though regarding factions. I wish the various factions had some kind of reputation system or something where the player could build it up, to get more favor, and maybe access to some special perks. Or really piss them off, to the point of being hated and hunted.