"A Legacy Forged" is infuriating...

[BadScientist]

This is what happens when non-scientists try to write about science. Honestly seems like the writers don't even understand what science is.

"The microbe is solved science." That is such a meaningless statement. There is no such thing as "solved science."
"You didn't trust the science." What science?? Science is a methodology for understanding the universe around us using observation and experimentation. This microbe was grown in a lab in a day and is COMPLETELY untested. There is no science on it to trust!

I'm not saying the Aceles are a great solution either. We're introducing one invasive species to try to wipe out another. Historically, that has rarely gone off without a hitch. But humanity has nearly wiped out the Aceles once, so there's no reason to believe they couldn't do it again if need be. If something went wrong with the microbe, it would be far more difficult to eradicate it.

Then there's the way every companion tells you that you're wrong not to wipe out the Lazarus plant, which is stupid for a variety of reasons. One, the plant is a non-issue since the heat leeches and terrormorphs are being eradicated. Two, we're talking about wiping out an entire species of plants that we know next to nothing about. By keeping them alive, we're able to study them. We can destroy them later if we must, but we can't bring them back once they're gone (unless they really live up to their name). And three, bringing in the FC to help secure them means that neither side will be tempted to use them as a weapon, because both will have equal access to them.

On top of all of that, there's all the inconsistencies in the writing. Going with the Aceles is the [Xenobiologist] background option, but then you get accused of not trusting the science if you choose that. Barrett agrees with going with the Aceles during the council meeting, but when you speak with him afterward, he tells you that you were wrong and should have gone with the microbe. Apparently Sam does the same thing.

This has been by far the worst written quest I've encountered so far. Anyways, end rant. Hope you guys are having a great day! :D

[Ratch]

One of the planets you visit during this questline, I think, has a quirk of "sentient microbial colonies." That's a no go from me on deploying more microbes on every planet.

I like to think some writer put in "trust the settled science" as a jab at covid response. I also like to think the writer who came up with that gem is a maxvaxxed octo-boosted overly sarcastic Redditor incapable of self-awareness.

All the writing in this game is bad imho. They favor using a forced dichotomy between black or white instead of coherent options. Aceles plan is stupidly passive, unless I glossed over some nuance, and the microbe plan is outright bad. Quarantine the plant, study it, send a civillian directive to squish as many heatleeches as possible, keep some for testing and prep the Aceles for distribution.

[MagicHp]

Finish the game, get the ending snippet clearly telling you that despite everyone disagreeing, the macro solution was actually "trusting the science" and the "good" ending for that quest.

Then realize that this wall of text was useless, wrong because incomplete, and most of all have been discussed in many different threads before...

[Action Man]

I don't get why both options couldn't be pursued.

[Ratch]

Originally posted by Action Man:

I don't get why both options couldn't be pursued.

Because we need a forced dichotomy so players know their choices have impact. It also would be too obviously the correct choice because it's not stunningly stupid. Nevermind that better writing/option choice would fix that issue.

A or B, both flawed options but nothing's perfect. It just works.

[BadScientist]

Originally posted by Liquid Inc:

Needs a spoiler tag, because some people haven't done this quest.

The name of the quest is in the thread title. If they haven't done the quest, they shouldn't be clicking on this topic.

Originally posted by Liquid Inc:

Well, it's set in the future, with warp travel, magic and the ability to clone things. They have far more control over science than we in reality do.
The microbe is, most likely, a further development of an already "in existence" microbe. Remember they had Xenoweapons before; stands to reason it would include microbes too, not just large aggressive animals.

Biological warfare is not a new thing, however horrible it is!

That's all speculation. I was basing my decision on the actual information presented to us.

Originally posted by Liquid Inc:

Aceles were grown across the systems for food, and slaughtered for food.. they can be re-introduced because they were originally there.... The whole of Londinium was the original home of the Aceles!

They were grown as food. They weren't released into the wild. Their original home was the planet Toliman II, not just the city of Londinion. We are taking them from their home planet and releasing them onto every other planet in the Settled Systems, which all have their own unique climates and ecosystems.

Originally posted by Liquid Inc:

You'll never completely irradicate the heatleaches, since they can live anywhere and everywhere. Killing the Plant that only grows on 1 single world, is a far easier method to stem the tide of Terrormorphs, than leaving the Plant and trying to erradicate Heatleaches from every planet in the universe, known or not.
Chances are, Heatleaches don't just live in the settled systems, so solely focusing on erradicating them while leaving the plant just leaves the door open for the situation to happen again...

The Lazarus plant only accelerates the metamorphosis of heat leeches into terrormorphs. They don't require it to transform. And since it only grows on one planet, it's only a problem if it's weaponized. Destroying the plant would do nothing to help with the existing terrormorph problem, nor would it prevent heat leeches that come in from outside the Settled Systems from transforming.

Originally posted by Liquid Inc:

& What stops someone who isn't UC or FC using it to unleash Terrormorphs? Heatleaches aren't hard to acquire, and you only need 1 disgruntled employee to cause mass damage elsewhere....

That's the whole point of containing it... How is one disgruntled employee supposed to get past the maximum joint security of the two most powerful interstellar governments (not to mention the hostile environment of the planet itself) to get their hands on a sample of the Lazarus plant, let alone find a way to weaponize it off-world?

[chefcook90]

Yup, can confirm that Sam is also pro-microbe.

As for wiping out the Lazarus plant, there really isn't any harm in eradicating it since it ONLY grows on Toliman II and can't be cultivated anywhere else.
There don't seem to be any plans to re-colonize the planet so destroying a single plant species isn't going to do much to negatively impact the settled systems.

The whole point of destroying the plant instead of securing it is so it CAN'T be studied, thus no one would have any way of recreating the synthetic Lazarus pollen (spores?) that activated the heatleech > terrormorph transformation.

But yeah, totally agree with you on the microbe thing.

I've yet to get the epilogue for microbe ending, but I HAVE seen the Aceles epilogue before, and it turns out really well - not only do they succeed in getting the terrormorphs under control, but the joint effort made by all the factions to distribute the Aceles across the galaxy helps usher in a new era of improved diplomatic relations.

I can only see the microbe as being a point of contention due to how controversial it is and its potential use as a weapon. I mean, it's a MICROBE designed to EXTERMINATE an entire species. Even without accidental mutations, an INTENTIONAL change could turn it into a bioweapon.

[Liquid Inc]

Originally posted by BadScientist:

Originally posted by Liquid Inc:

Well, it's set in the future, with warp travel, magic and the ability to clone things. They have far more control over science than we in reality do.
The microbe is, most likely, a further development of an already "in existence" microbe. Remember they had Xenoweapons before; stands to reason it would include microbes too, not just large aggressive animals.

Biological warfare is not a new thing, however horrible it is!

That's all speculation. I was basing my decision on the actual information presented to us.

It's actually not all speculation. They had cloning, and look at the things that science has produced in-game, including food, chems and the fact they got 2 Terrormorphs onto Mars, and into cages, before they even knew about the plant; But they DID have the old research into Terrormorphs....

They were already talking about how the microbe would be effective, not could be. That was one flag that suggested they knew more.

Originally posted by BadScientist:

They were grown as food. They weren't released into the wild. Their original home was the planet Toliman II, not just the city of Londinion. We are taking them from their home planet and releasing them onto every other planet in the Settled Systems, which all have their own unique climates and ecosystems.

If you had talked to sanon, she actually says they were released on more planets, and that they were spread across the settled systems, before being farmed to near extinction.

Originally posted by BadScientist:

The Lazarus plant only accelerates the metamorphosis of heat leeches into terrormorphs. They don't require it to transform. And since it only grows on one planet, it's only a problem if it's weaponized. Destroying the plant would do nothing to help with the existing terrormorph problem, nor would it prevent heat leeches that come in from outside the Settled Systems from transforming.

It stops the immediate threat of them. it takes 70+ Years for a Terrormorph to transform normally from a Heatleach, compared to the few seconds when exposed to the plant.

Destroying the only known source of the plant, stops attacks like the ones at NA from being possible, since you'd then have to transport fully grown Terrormorphs there in a ship, and you can bet that would be spotted pretty quickly...

If the plant grew elsewhere, you'd have a point, but there's nowhere else that's known to have it.

Originally posted by BadScientist:

That's the whole point of containing it... How is one disgruntled employee supposed to get past the maximum joint security of the two most powerful interstellar governments (not to mention the hostile environment of the planet itself) to get their hands on a sample of the Lazarus plant, let alone find a way to weaponize it off-world?

How does Sanon himself evade being executed in front of the tribunal so well, that they think he was killed?

He even uses the UC themselves, as a messenger, to plan and execute the attack on NA with the Terrormorphs, while being stuck in maximum security.

Originally posted by BadScientist:

to get their hands on a sample of the Lazarus plant, let alone find a way to weaponize it off-world?

And yet Sanon did that, stuck in prison. The UC has had the planet under cordon for years, and only specific people are even allowed into Londinium. Imagine what he could have done, had he been allowed to walk freely around?

[Action Man]

What I think is funny is that Sam is pro-microbe after you finish the mission, but he Likes you choosing the Aceles option. Maybe this is because it also brings in the Freestar Collective.

[BadScientist]

Originally posted by Liquid Inc:

It's actually not all speculation. They had cloning, and look at the things that science has produced in-game, including food, chems and the fact they got 2 Terrormorphs onto Mars, and into cages, before they even knew about the plant; But they DID have the old research into Terrormorphs....

They were already talking about how the microbe would be effective, not could be. That was one flag that suggested they knew more.

I was referring to you saying that the microbe was a further development to one that already existed and that the Xenoweapon program included microbes. None of that was stated or suggested in the game. Also, it doesn't take much to know whether or not a microbe will kill something. You just infect it and see what happens. What they couldn't possibly know without years or decades of testing is how that microbe would affect a diverse population of humans and an even more diverse population of alien species across dozens of planets. People keep saying that this is a thinly veiled allegory for vaccines or the c0vid response, but even vaccines (which are not living organisms and therefore cannot mutate) have to be tested for years in a controlled setting except in an emergency situation. People in the media like to say that vaccines are "solved science" but that just discounts the incredible amount of work scientists do to continue to develop them every year and stay ahead of the diseases that they are made to combat as they continuously evolve in order to make sure the vaccines remain safe and effective.

Originally posted by Liquid Inc:

If you had talked to sanon, she actually says they were released on more planets, and that they were spread across the settled systems, before being farmed to near extinction.

She says they were brought to other worlds and farmed for food. She does not say they were released into the wild on those worlds.

Originally posted by Liquid Inc:

It stops the immediate threat of them. it takes 70+ Years for a Terrormorph to transform normally from a Heatleach, compared to the few seconds when exposed to the plant.

Destroying the only known source of the plant, stops attacks like the ones at NA from being possible, since you'd then have to transport fully grown Terrormorphs there in a ship, and you can bet that would be spotted pretty quickly...

If the plant grew elsewhere, you'd have a point, but there's nowhere else that's known to have it.

It does nothing to stop the immediate threat. Any settlement that is older than 70 years is at immediate risk of a terrormorph attack, with or without the Lazarus plant. Yes, destroying the plants prevents them from being used in terrormorph attacks, but so does locking them down. And even if someone did somehow manage to bring in heat leeches from outside the Settled Systems, AND by some miracle get a sample of the Lazarus plant, AND figure out how to weaponize it off-world, it would be a moot point if every settlement has a population of Aceles on stand-by to kill any terrormorphs that show up.

Originally posted by Liquid Inc:

How does Sanon himself evade being executed in front of the tribunal so well, that they think he was killed?

He even uses the UC themselves, as a messenger, to plan and execute the attack on NA with the Terrormorphs, while being stuck in maximum security.

[...]

And yet Sanon did that, stuck in prison. The UC has had the planet under cordon for years, and only specific people are even allowed into Londinium. Imagine what he could have done, had he been allowed to walk freely around?

Sanon didn't evade being executed. The UC council faked his death. Nor did he figure out how to weaponize the Lazarus plant. Orlase did that. And it took decades. Nor did the UC have all of Toliman II locked down. Hadrian specifically says that it isn't illegal to go there, but no one does because it's too dangerous. Orlase managed to weaponize the Lazarus plant (again, over the course of decades) while being one of only two people alive who knew of its significance. He could have landed anywhere on the planet to collect samples (evading the grand total of two UC vessels hovering above the city of Londinion and the small UC presence in the city itself) and worked on it at his leisure because, again, no one else knew about the plant. That's a very different situation to having the entire planet blockaded and guarded by two interstellar superpowers and having all traffic into all of the Settled Systems scanned for the plant.

[lieutenantkirtar]

I noticed Andreja also agreed with me using the aceles during the quest but disagreed with me after the quest.

I wouldn't be surprised if all the companions agree with you during the quest no matter what they actually think.

[Bored Peon]

When you make the decision to use the Aceles EVERY companion dislikes that.
Talk to companions for their "after quest chat" Sam and Barrett likes you chose the Aceles.

The Aceles is the smarter choice overall:
- It existed before it was eaten into extinction by starving settlers. so it any some unknown factor.
- If something does go wrong with the Aceles, well fire up the barbecue and make some burgers, steaks, and ribs.
- With heat leeches being the known source you can drastically reduce the problem quickly. As you see in game the techs start hunting heat leeches at the landing pads.
- With the eradication of the lazarus plant or becoming restricted you also greatly reduce the chance of a terrormorph attack.
- The chance of microbes mutating was SEVERELY underestimated. You are talking about a microbe coming into contact with dozens of planets and atmospheres which could easily cause an issue.

As far as Sanon goes, I highly suggest telling Hadrian asap the next time around.