Starfield

Starfield

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Rune Sep 26, 2023 @ 10:04am
Every female leader a girlboss, every male leader evil, stupid or both?
At first I thought people were exaggerating about this, but the more I play through the faction and side stories, the more it seems like almost every female leader in the game universe is an infallable girlboss, and almost every male leader is either evil or stupid or both.

Overall the stories are decently enough written, some side stories are even really good, but the exaggeration of the opposite gender role tendency is fairly immersion-breaking once you do take notice.

I would have found this stupid if all the male characters were written this way, like aggressive perfect alpha males, but the fact that it's written that way with women instead is neither clever nor subversive, it's just jarring.
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Showing 1-15 of 90 comments
Athmet Sep 26, 2023 @ 10:07am 
5
2
Leader of UC Sysdef > Male > did not feel evil
Leader of Freestar Rangers > Male > did not feel evil
Mayor of Akila city > Male > did not feel evil
Leader of Crimson Fleet > Male > yea, kind of evil but depends of your point of view i would say
Will try and think about more.

Bottom line: you right wing felicias need to do better for troll post.
Starbug Sep 26, 2023 @ 10:08am 
You simply need to imagine all the men bosses died in the colony war so it doesn't hurt your feels or take you out of the manosphere.
Liquid Inc Sep 26, 2023 @ 10:09am 
Originally posted by Athmet:
Leader of UC Sysdef > Male > did not feel evil
Leader of Freestar Rangers > Male > did not feel evil
Mayor of Akila city > Male > did not feel evil
Leader of Crimson Fleet > Male > yea, kind of evil but depends of your point of view i would say
Will try and think about more.

you right wing felicias

it's not right wing (Nice bias though). It's just pure ignorance.
Athmet Sep 26, 2023 @ 10:10am 
2
Originally posted by Liquid Inc:
Originally posted by Athmet:
Leader of UC Sysdef > Male > did not feel evil
Leader of Freestar Rangers > Male > did not feel evil
Mayor of Akila city > Male > did not feel evil
Leader of Crimson Fleet > Male > yea, kind of evil but depends of your point of view i would say
Will try and think about more.

you right wing felicias

it's not right wing (Nice bias though). It's just pure ignorance.
Except most of the time: ignorance lead to right wing.. But I agree: bias :)
Rune Sep 26, 2023 @ 10:32am 
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2
I think it's fairly telling that anyone who points out this phenomenon is branded a right-winger.

And this is not a troll post. I am genuinely curious.
Athmet Sep 26, 2023 @ 10:35am 
Originally posted by Rune:
I think it's fairly telling that anyone who points out this phenomenon is branded a right-winger.

And this is not a troll post. I am genuinely curious.
Your point is moot since it is not true.
valium Sep 26, 2023 @ 10:37am 
2
There is a lot of competency and incompetency with both in leadership roles, fixating so much on a single aspect reflects more on you than the game.
juskom95 Sep 26, 2023 @ 10:37am 
Originally posted by Rune:
I think it's fairly telling that anyone who points out this phenomenon is branded a right-winger.

And this is not a troll post. I am genuinely curious.
It is a way of demonizing and dehumanizing people.
Thorley23 Sep 26, 2023 @ 10:51am 
3
2
Originally posted by Athmet:
Leader of UC Sysdef > Male > did not feel evil
Leader of Freestar Rangers > Male > did not feel evil
Mayor of Akila city > Male > did not feel evil
Leader of Crimson Fleet > Male > yea, kind of evil but depends of your point of view i would say
Will try and think about more.

Bottom line: you right wing felicias need to do better for troll post.


The fact that there are a few seeming exceptions does not change the fact that he's basically right. It has nothing to do with right wing either, and people need to knock that off, as this is more a problem with an insane sort of activism pushing into things despite common sense than it does with the actual politics of either side.

Let me put it to you this way, of that list you have there, a lot of those men are subservient to higher ranking women, oftentimes in the same areas. When you meet the UC and Freestar leaders on New Atlantis for example both of them are women, and they are the ones who are in direct command of Vanguard or The Rangers. The Crimson Fleet leader is a murdering space pirate regardless of how you dress it up, and remember the guy talked about competence as well, I did not feel the Mayor you mention exactly had it all going on if you catch my meaning. That said most of these female leaders, they are pretty much totally in control and competent and seem to have few if any visible flaws.

A lot of it has to do with Demeanor as well, part of the whole "girlboss" thing is that it tends to involve women who behave incredibly un-feminine, perhaps not to the point of being outright pseudo-men, but to the point of having few, if any, recognizable feminine traits at all.

Do not misunderstand that point about feminine behavior either, a lot of people like to project crap onto that like claiming you should have female generals giggling and painting each other's toes or something. If you know many women at all, including those in positions of power up until the last decade or so, they acted entirely differently. There is nothing intrinsically weak about being feminine, but society right now tries to make it seem that way.

This latter point tends to be a problem if you know many younger women (I do, at least online, via MMOS and stuff) as many of them have real issues with basically being told everything they want to be is wrong, or weak, and they should be like this. It is in fact causing a lot of problems, and while many are afraid to be vocal about it (though some are starting to me) they think that feminism has gotten to the point where it is basically just becoming a movement out to erase what women are supposed to be.

This is not to say that there is anything wrong with women who don't want to be traditionally feminine, but when you see pretty much every character of note bucking that trend to make it normalized that is the problem.

Now for those who read this far, I will try and sort of explain a bit about masculine vs. feminine thinking. I hate doing this because the differences are not all that pronounced in a direct sense, but they do exist, and describing the differences tends to seem like your talking about thought processes that are entirely alien to each other which they are not. Psych classes (properly taught ones) tend to be better at conveying the nuance than I am, though it's one of those things where to do it properly isn't going to happen over one lesson or class. Of course most won't read a post long like a lot of my stuff, but then again that is probably why so few people learn things or improve for the better today.

The difference between women and men tends to come down on a sort of instinct towards relational thinking (women) vs. rational thinking (men). Both genders do both of course but do have a sort of tendency, and it's a little more complicated than trying to say "women are emotionally unstable and guys are vulcans". While individuals vary it comes down simply to the fact that men very much think in terms of result, competition, dominance, and cause and effect. In say a competition over resources this leads to very aggressive thinking and focus on "real politik" with the end game being to pretty much assert dominance and dictate terms from that position. A woman on the other hand is more likely to consider how the two factions related to each other and try and work out some kind of long term balance or compromise. Neither approach is perfect or will work all the time, and in fact one way of doing things exclusively tends to have tragic consequences. Also understand both genders do indeed engage in both types of thinking, it's more of a tendency towards which kind of thought process they ultimately will decide on as being "right" given the option. This is why society generally benefits from having both tendencies represented at the upper echelons of power as it tends to at least result in more options being discussed.

To put this into sci-fi terms. What solution is right can depend on the situation. Let's say there is an alien race, the stereotypical male way of thinking would be that if that race is competitive, humans must assert themselves over it and deal with them from a position of power and control, and do whatever it takes to maintain that reality, regardless of whether we exploit it or not. This is a sort of "military sci-fi" way of doing things. A more feminine instinct would be to try and achieve some balance of power which both sides would strive to maintain to avoid long term conflict, after all, even if it's not exploited, nobody wants to have a gun to their head.

Who is right depends on the given universe and what the reality of the situation is. They tend to tailor everything to their intended message, in reality we would be acting blind which is why it's best to evaluate all possibilities. I mean understand we have sci-fi universes where pointless wars are started by militant meatheads and diplomats save the day. We also have other ones where peacenik Diplomats get billions killed trying to make peace treaties with a forced that can't be negotiated with. You know the old story from the original "Battlestar Galactica" where "Oh yeah, we can totally make peace with the Cylons despite everything that happened" which lead to there being only one Battlestar and a ton of refugees? Stuff like that. Pretty much what happens if the galactic council decides it should try and negotiate a peace treaty with the Xenomorphs or Necrons or something, or tries to assume that someone's "Galactic Empire" is going to actually be inclined to let you remain independent. This is sort of why it's important to have both perspectives, types of personality, and ways of thinking represented to some extent.

The problem with Starfield, is that almost all of the women seem to be entirely rational, masculine, thinkers. Looking at say the relationship between the UC and Freestar for example, both of the leaders you see in New Atlantis are entirely rational "real politik" types glaring at each other and only begrudgingly even considering working together over things like the Terrormorph threat from the Vanguard quest line. They are overall, almost cookie cutters of each other, as both are very stereotypical, cookie cutter "girl boss" characters and very similar in outlook to pretty much every other female authority figure (who are mostly the top tier authority figures) in the game. That is the problem, you almost rolled this off of an assembly mind as they decided they had to have an agenda where women had to be portrayed this way for the most part.

See, if they had been reasonable about it, the realistic way, which to be fair would be a little stereotypical simply because it reflects how things would be. Would be to say have a man running one major faction on New Atalantis, and a woman running the other. Then you have the guy being the anal retentive "cannot trust the other side" one for good reason based on history, and the lady saying "hey look, we've got to move forward, and all that might be true, but we do need to find some way of working things out and getting along for the long term". That would be a proper gender and perspective balance. You don't need to do that in every story, which would be a cookie cutter itself, but the fact that everything is contrary to reality is the problem.

Overall it would generally have worked best if it turned out UC did have a chip on it's shoulder and was taking the "rational" approach to it, and it would be justified because whatever "freestar" might claim at the moment the only reason it won a certain pivotal space battle was that it used civilians as human shields while it murdered a military that refused to fire on them to survive or win. Freestar might want to pretend it's the good guys, and might even have a lot of morally superior positions, but it could be used that was a very clear example of how when "the ends justify the means" are employed to that level, nobody is going to want to trust and deal with you for good reason even if a lot of your people might in fact mean what they are saying. "Oh sorry we killed a bunch of people while holding guns on innocents and forcing them to stand in front of your weapons, we're muuucch better now.....".

At any rate this isn't political, I guess you could say it's me commenting on wanting to see the actual goal of equality represented, or at least an effort made in that direction. I don't think what Starfield did is good for anyone, especially women, as believe it or not most women do not want to be, act like, or think like, dudes. If that's being portrayed as what it takes to be strong, you have a problem.
Precurse Sep 26, 2023 @ 10:58am 
Originally posted by Athmet:
Originally posted by Liquid Inc:

it's not right wing (Nice bias though). It's just pure ignorance.
Except most of the time: ignorance lead to right wing.. But I agree: bias :)

The pendulum swings both ways. It'd be ignorant to say otherwise, lmao
Rasjel Sep 26, 2023 @ 10:58am 
Originally posted by Athmet:
Leader of UC Sysdef > Male > did not feel evil
Leader of Freestar Rangers > Male > did not feel evil
Mayor of Akila city > Male > did not feel evil
Leader of Crimson Fleet > Male > yea, kind of evil but depends of your point of view i would say

add.
Boss of Straud Ecklund, male not evil.
FREEZED Sep 26, 2023 @ 10:59am 
Originally posted by Rune:
At first I thought people were exaggerating about this, but the more I play through the faction and side stories, the more it seems like almost every female leader in the game universe is an infallable girlboss, and almost every male leader is either evil or stupid or both.

Overall the stories are decently enough written, some side stories are even really good, but the exaggeration of the opposite gender role tendency is fairly immersion-breaking once you do take notice.

I would have found this stupid if all the male characters were written this way, like aggressive perfect alpha males, but the fact that it's written that way with women instead is neither clever nor subversive, it's just jarring.
i think all boss types are pretty realistic, as what i can see compared to my real life experiences about CEO level people and small business leaders.
juskom95 Sep 26, 2023 @ 11:00am 
Originally posted by Rasjel:
Originally posted by Athmet:
Leader of UC Sysdef > Male > did not feel evil
Leader of Freestar Rangers > Male > did not feel evil
Mayor of Akila city > Male > did not feel evil
Leader of Crimson Fleet > Male > yea, kind of evil but depends of your point of view i would say

add.
Boss of Straud Ecklund, male not evil.
You haven't played the main story, have you?
jerrypocalypse Sep 26, 2023 @ 11:03am 
Originally posted by juskom95:
Originally posted by Rasjel:

add.
Boss of Straud Ecklund, male not evil.
You haven't played the main story, have you?
Co-CEO is still a CEO. Equal partners, one isn't higher than the other.
Eminem Sep 26, 2023 @ 11:08am 
Originally posted by Athmet:
Leader of UC Sysdef > Male > did not feel evil
Leader of Freestar Rangers > Male > did not feel evil
Mayor of Akila city > Male > did not feel evil
Leader of Crimson Fleet > Male > yea, kind of evil but depends of your point of view i would say
Will try and think about more.

Bottom line: you right wing felicias need to do better for troll post.

Well played. Here is your award!
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Date Posted: Sep 26, 2023 @ 10:04am
Posts: 90