Honest discussion about Starfield

[Singularity 9823]

First, I would like to say that this is all my opinion, you can think whatever you want. I would urge you not to pre-order, but most of you would probably do that anyway, and that is entirely your choice. Know that I am not trying to piss anyone off, I am honestly just asking the community to discuss the game openly with their hopes and fears.

I would like to discuss what you expect of Starfield truly. I see a huge amount of hype around Youtube, but no-one is talking about the really questionable design of this game. Before I explain what I mean, I want to say that (So you understand my stance on triple A gaming) I honestly hate modern triple A game design with huge open worlds, filler quests and crafting. So know, that my opinion is based on that and that my arguments will follow closely to this train of thought.

to be clear on my view, it's quite negative, but I am not urging anyone to become mad and pessimistic, I am only explaining my view point, and asking what others expect. I personally expect this game to have: A over complicated crafting system, Loot drops with colours, perks and skill trees with little to no gameplay changes (such as 5% more accuracy with set weapon). Then, I expect huge padding with meaningless quests for about 50-60% of the runtime. That is the base of triple A design today I would argue and I am sure you all expect most of these "features" too.

Here is what I want to really point out with this game and what I would mainly like to discuss in terms of expectations: The huge world with thousands of star systems. Why are people excited for this, and why do people expect so much of it? on the one hand I understand the inherit excitement to explore a huge open world with planets ranging from volcanic, ice, acid, etc. I mean, every star wars fan has dreamt of this. But I don't think this is going to go as people expect because the system building all planets except main ones is procedural. Thousands of planets mean inherently that the systems will be procedurally generated.

Being very optimistic, this would mean we get beautifully diverse worlds that are empty and are only made for finding resources in an interesting set of biomes that will become normal to you after a few dozen planets exploration. Looking at no man's sky is a good example. Their worlds are entirely procedurally generated and they have hundreds of thousands of planets, but all of them are empty and the creatures and fauna on them can start to blend between planets. Sure, that one might be red with lava, and the other one might be a rain forest, but both have the same looking plants and creatures. If...you don't know what I mean, go play no man's sky for a week.

So my first issue is just that, planets will start to look alike after a while and start to lose their uniqueness, and 90% of these planets will be empty, or at least feel empty. To me, Procedural generation goes against the entire idea of a single player RPG experience on this scale because RPGS are built on their quests, worlds, characters and the players interactions with them, which is lost in procedural generation. Procedural worlds mean, that nothing is placed with care, nothing is guiding the player anywhere, and there is no pay off to exploring other than collecting stuff for making your next weapon or gear, or upgrade your star ship. This causes the game to just become a grind to collect loot across different planets, which is not what an RPG is. It's like creating an MMO that only has 8 hours of content (a main quest) but can be played with thousands of people to speed that time up, it's a complete contradiction to the genre itself.

Bethesda is making a system that goes against single player design in the same way, where the goal of an RPG should be to grow your character in the world with the characters quests and situations within it, but is urging you to leave that space to explore and grind (mine) resources instead. I can guarantee you, only the main story planets will have worthwhile content, because the developers planned that content, the possible conclusions and the effect the player has within it. The probability is that either, you will get side quests sending you to a randomly generated planet to find something (fetch quests), or that all the main content will be done on the main planets, and the thousands of other planets will be used for grinding.

If any of you have any thoughts on this, or counter arguments I would be happy to hear it. I simply wanted to just give my 2 cents on this, and ask what other people are expecting and feeling in regards to the game itself and what has been shown thus far.

[Wade]

I expect Beth Cult Police to jump in 3... 2... 1... NOW!

[Daedrius]

Originally posted by Singularity 9823:

I want to say that (So you understand my stance on triple A gaming) I honestly hate modern triple A game design with huge open worlds, filler quests and crafting. So know, that my opinion is based on that and that my arguments will follow closely to this train of thought.

If any of you have any thoughts on this, or counter arguments I would be happy to hear it. I simply wanted to just give my 2 cents on this, and ask what other people are expecting and feeling in regards to the game itself and what has been shown thus far.

Okay, so, you're not going to like Starfield. Good to know I guess and there's really no need for a counter argument because that is your opinion and are entitled to it.

I happpen to enjoy crafting/survival/exploration games and seeing as this will also have space exploration with over 1000 planets, I'm pretty stoked.

[Singularity 9823]

Originally posted by Ezeris:

Originally posted by Singularity 9823:

I want to say that (So you understand my stance on triple A gaming) I honestly hate modern triple A game design with huge open worlds, filler quests and crafting. So know, that my opinion is based on that and that my arguments will follow closely to this train of thought.

If any of you have any thoughts on this, or counter arguments I would be happy to hear it. I simply wanted to just give my 2 cents on this, and ask what other people are expecting and feeling in regards to the game itself and what has been shown thus far.

Okay, so, you're not going to like Starfield. Good to know I guess and there's really no need for a counter argument because that is your opinion and are entitled to it.

I happpen to enjoy crafting/survival/exploration games and seeing as this will also have space exploration with over 1000 planets, I'm pretty stoked.

I'm glad 😊 I hope you have fun and that it's everything you expect it to be, truly. You have a lot of games to enjoy and that is a really good thing to have. I'm kind of envious that you find pleasure in these type of games. I hope you have immense fun on release, thank you for sharing your thoughts.

[Bandy]

Originally posted by Daddy Kratos:

not reading all dat

^

[Singularity 9823]

Originally posted by Bandy:

Originally posted by Daddy Kratos:

not reading all dat

^

Why...bother commenting then? like it's fine. But it seems really unnecessary. I...did not even write that much as the discussion. I made my points concise. It's not like I am asking you to read a book. But again, that's okay, I just don't understand why you feel the need to comment.

[Bandy]

That I read. Have a fine weekend. S!

[Wade]

Originally posted by Singularity 9823:

But again, that's okay, I just don't understand why you feel the need to comment.

Because some people feed off of trolling on this forum, especially if somebody posts some criticism.

For some of them it's like full time job, jumping on everybody who dares to express some doubts or criticism.

[Singularity 9823]

Originally posted by Wade Rocketowsky:

Originally posted by Singularity 9823:

But again, that's okay, I just don't understand why you feel the need to comment.

Because some people feed off of trolling on this forum, especially if somebody posts some criticism.

For some of them it's like full time job, jumping on everybody who dares to express some doubts or criticism.

I mean...that's just the world now isin't it? :(

[Bandy]

OP, let's be honest, you write a rambling diatribe (oh yes) and then take offense when somebody tongue-in-cheek posts "TLDR"? Then get all defensive and say it was concise?

And don't bother with a reply demeaning my reading/writing skills, I write technical reports for a living.

[Singularity 9823]

Originally posted by Bandy:

OP, let's be honest, you write a rambling diatribe (oh yes) and then take offense when somebody tongue-in-cheek posts "TLDR"? Then get all defensive and say it was concise?

? what. Dude, it's fine. I am not offended, you can do whatever you want. My..."rambling"was concise. I clearly laid out the design in relation to game design, the issues of modern game design and how the formula used in this game does not match well with a single player RPG. I voiced my concerns and asked what others thought would be good or bad of the game. I never yelled at anyone, I was never mean to anyone. I never took offense to anyone. My post was clear, I said what I think and I asked others to voice their opinion to have a effective discussion about the game itself, I was not intending to ♥♥♥♥ on anyone, but to expand my thoughts on the genre and how these mechanics could work. I don't give a ♥♥♥♥ if it offends someone, it was what I wanted to say and learn. I was genuinely curious what other people thought of the game and what they expected.

[vonbleak]

Firstly lets get the scale correct, there are around 100 star systems not over 1000 and there are around 1000 planets not many 1000's... The details matter...

Secondly from what we have seen there is no coloured loot scale systems as you have assumed, it looks much more in line with something like F4, again details matter...

Basically it all comes down to expectations and whether you liked previous BGS games as from the looks of this and what Todd Howard has said its going to play/feel like a mix of Skyrim and Fallout, which is to say much like other singleplayer BGS games, so if you dont like those games then you wont like Starfield...

As for the procedural generation aspects, i dont think people realise that BGS have always used procedual generation to some degree in all of their previous games and no one seemed to mind so far... In terms of scale prob the closest thing to Starfield might be Daggerfall which is still one of the biggest game worlds in gaming history and people loved it back in the day as you really could just 'live another life' and go off in any direction and have adventures...

Yes many of the planets are only there for resource gathering and base building but thats ok as it means the planets that do have more content will feel richer, rather than trying to spread out the content over 1000 planets, BGS have also said you will know easily which planets have content and which are more barren so you wont be aimlessly wandering and searching for the content you desire...

Now of im basing all of this on what little we have seen so far and from what BGS have officially told us, so i could be wrong of course, but they have also said they are looking back to the games they used to make, such as Daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion for inspiration and go back to a more hardcore RPG type of experience - and if all of that is true then i dont think we have too much to worry about...

Combine all of that with what looks like Freelancer type space adventures and this really could be an amazing game...

[Singularity 9823]

Originally posted by vonbleak:

Firstly lets get the scale correct, there are around 100 star systems not over 1000 and there are around 1000 planets not many 1000's... The details matter...

Secondly from what we have seen there is no coloured loot scale systems as you have assumed, it looks much more in line with something like F4, again details matter...

Basically it all comes down to expectations and whether you liked previous BGS games as from the looks of this and what Todd Howard has said its going to play/feel like a mix of Skyrim and Fallout, which is to say much like other singleplayer BGS games, so if you dont like those games then you wont like Starfield...

As for the procedural generation aspects, i dont think people realise that BGS have always used procedual generation to some degree in all of their previous games and no one seemed to mind so far... In terms of scale prob the closest thing to Starfield might be Daggerfall which is still one of the biggest game worlds in gaming history and people loved it back in the day as you really could just 'live another life' and go off in any direction and have adventures...

Yes many of the planets are only there for resource gathering and base building but thats ok as it means the planets that do have more content will feel richer, rather than trying to spread out the content over 1000 planets, BGS have also said you will know easily which planets have content and which are more barren so you wont be aimlessly wandering and searching for the content you desire...

Now of im basing all of this on what little we have seen so far and from what BGS have officially told us, so i could be wrong of course, but they have also said they are looking back to the games they used to make, such as Daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion for inspiration and go back to a more hardcore RPG type of experience - and if all of that is true then i dont think we have too much to worry about...

Combine all of that with what looks like Freelancer type space adventures and this really could be an amazing game... :cozybethesda:

Firstly, apologies for the assumptions.

That's a really good outlook. I...don't quite agree with the procedural generation not taking away from the game, but that's okay, I understand where you are coming from. I kind of just feel, they could have made 50 amazing planets with deep stories and characters, rather than let's say, 10-15 planets that are really detailed and very interesting, while the other 950 don't you know? 1000 planets is still to much to me, a 100 would have been better, that way you could still design stories and characters across the worlds and still make them feel really interesting and like full content, where perhaps 20 would be barren and empty worlds.

Gameplay wise, I again admit to assuming, and apologize once again. I have just seen most games coming out have a rarity system now, and it feels like Bethesda would also just add it to be on the cutting edge and conform, Bathesda is a really shady company now, just like the other companies, so I don't expect the best from them. Instead of making ES6 they have re released skyrim 5 times, started paid mods and have designed another update coming soon to skyrim to add a market place to buy more stuff with real money. That's not even looking at fallout 76. That being said, hopefully it's really not like cyberpunk, hopefully your weapons really do matter and the perks really do effect them heavily, and hopefully many play through's are possible and feel meaningful.

All that being said I do agree if they go back to what Oblivion was narrative writing wise the story could at least be very good. I feel Skyrim was much weaker written than Oblivion and the quests were much less smartly designed, like becoming the leader of a group in under 5 quests. The gameplay between Fallout and Elder scrolls is very different to me, and rightfully so. I don't think Starfield will feel like "Skyrim" or "Fallout" but will still feel like a Bethesda game. I do get what you meant though.

Thanks for this reply man. I really appreciate your outlook on the topic and explaining your arguments so well.

[wesnef]

1) I've only been reading this forum, so I haven't seen "hype everywhere for Starfield", I've seen a continual stream of posts like yours - "don't pre-order, AAA games suck, Starfield will suck, etc"

2) I expect a Bethesda game. Skyrim/Fallout 4 In Space!(tm)

3) Yes, I'm a bit concerned about the "1000 planets", because one of the things I enjoy most about Bethesda games is discovering all the little hand-placed environmental details - the little dioramas of junk hidden in corners, the teddy bear displays in Fallout, the corpses that tell a story just by their placement, and so on. They've said that the "main" planets (the quest/main plot locations) are built their usual way, so I have hopes that I'll find this kind of stuff even with all the procedural open space.

(plus, all those open worlds gives modders safe places to build their own locations, unlike in the previous games, where they had to be careful not to step on anything that affected the rest of the game)

Don't really have any of the other concerns that you list. /shrug


And haven't made any decision on pre-ordering, but I will be buying and playing day 1. As I did with Skyrim, Fallout 4, and maybe Fallout 3 (can't remember exactly that far back).

I mostly avoid hype - I don't watch streamers (ind the whole scene absurd, tbh), I won't be watching the June 11 showcase (I'll just read reports/summaries of it), so I don't have irrational expectations. I find I enjoy games better that way. Played and enjoyed Cyperpunk 2077 on launch day, for ex. Don't have a long list of "promises" that I feel they didn't fulfill, because I got the game I expected to get.

[Singularity 9823]

Originally posted by wesnef:

1) I've only been reading this forum, so I haven't seen "hype everywhere for Starfield", I've seen a continual stream of posts like yours - "don't pre-order, AAA games suck, Starfield will suck, etc"

2) I expect a Bethesda game. Skyrim/Fallout 4 In Space!(tm)

3) Yes, I'm a bit concerned about the "1000 planets", because one of the things I enjoy most about Bethesda games is discovering all the little hand-placed environmental details - the little dioramas of junk hidden in corners, the teddy bear displays in Fallout, the corpses that tell a story just by their placement, and so on. They've said that the "main" planets (the quest/main plot locations) are built their usual way, so I have hopes that I'll find this kind of stuff even with all the procedural open space.

(plus, all those open worlds gives modders safe places to build their own locations, unlike in the previous games, where they had to be careful not to step on anything that affected the rest of the game)

Don't really have any of the other concerns that you list. /shrug


And haven't made any decision on pre-ordering, but I will be buying and playing day 1. As I did with Skyrim, Fallout 4, and maybe Fallout 3 (can't remember exactly that far back).

I mostly avoid hype - I don't watch streamers (ind the whole scene absurd, tbh), I won't be watching the June 11 showcase (I'll just read reports/summaries of it), so I don't have irrational expectations. I find I enjoy games better that way. Played and enjoyed Cyperpunk 2077 on launch day, for ex. Don't have a long list of "promises" that I feel they didn't fulfill, because I got the game I expected to get.

That is understandable. Personally I will be tuning in just to see what they have done in the year and to see all their systems. I don't want this game to fail, I just...don't have much hope in the current game industry. I want this game to be good and I want people to enjoy this game, like I did oblivion and the ps2 era. At 25, I feel sad just thinking about the game industry and what it has become and I find that depressing. I can't muster up much excitement for this industry or the film industry anymore.

Of everything announced the only games I am excited for is Avowed and Fable, and I am deathly afraid they will just be more open world crafting games instead of fun single player games that are remembered for their uniqueness like lost chapters was. And Avowed is the closest thing to my dream game I have ever asked for. It's a first person fantasy RPG, something we have only had about 5 of (Morrowind, Oblivion, Dark messiah, Skyrim, ESO) in the last 2 decades. It's the one game I want to do well...it's the one game I hope lives up to my expectations, and it's the one game...I just hope makes me feel something joyful in gaming again.

Honestly, I am glad some people are still excited by this game. I am not asking anyone to not buy this, if that's what they truly want. I just, wanted to understand the counter arguments to why someone would want Starfield.I hope I am wrong about this game, I hope it's fantastic. I don't have hype for most games or companies anymore, because it tends to end in disappointment (Warcraft reforged being my peak disappointment ever).

But that does not mean, I want this to be a disappointment. I just currently mixed on the idea of this game, that's all. I don't outright hate it, I just have a lot of concerns...especially with every triple A game becoming an open world filler crafting game.

[NTense]

I hope they go back to their roots and give us more unique story telling, wide story-arching choices and in-depth character creation. They could also make another fps action game, where every situation turns into a pew pew gun fight à la Fallout 4. I'm happy either way I get a great game or another AAA disaster to laugh at. It's impossible for me to be disappointed at this point because I won't be preordering or playing until the dust settles.