Yes, it's a role-playing game.

[Zhorge]

There seems to be a pervasive myth that there is a lack of 'quality role-playing' in Bethesda games. The problem I see is that many people don't play these games role-playing games but play them as looter-shooters because they do not take the time to understand the environmental story-telling.

Bethesda a master in the concept. The fact that people don't bother pay attention to the environmentally created stories doesn't mean Bethesda failed in their world-building or story-telling. The fact that so many gamers have fallen into the dopamine-fix, looter-shooter trap, once again, doesn't mean it's not an RPG.

Bethesda is a master at environmental storytelling. And rather spend all of my precious gaming time trying word it just right, I'll point you to someone who did. She uses Fallout 4, another Bethesda game that was routinely trashed as 'lacking' story-wise.

Bethesda Softworks Environmental Storytelling

The Elder Scrolls and Fallout are two of Bethesda Softworks’ most popular franchises. They are both heavily reliant on what may be referred to as “the melancholy of lost civilizations,” thus this is definitely not a coincidence. There aren’t many people left because they’re mostly all dead (to tell the story). The local settings in which they lived and died are therefore used to render the stories to be notified by those whose lives ended over a long time:

• In a bathtub filled with empty gin bottles, a skeleton is lying down.
  
• A lone chair has a colorful party hat, and a decrepit cake sits in the middle of a circle of toys.
  
• One arm is draped across a chest that is imprisoned by a dried-up body.
  
• A pistol with one round missing is resting in the lap of a skeleton, who is slumped over a chair outside a bunker’s door.
  
• Two giggling girls are seen in faded photos in a ragged flipbook.
  
• There are plungers attached to every flat surface in the room.
  
• On a bed, two skeletons are lying with their hands together.
  
• Cheeses of every kind are placed in rows on shelves in a hidden area. Instead of a cheese wheel, there is a tarnished penny on one shelf.

You see what I mean. Behind each room’s door in the game world could be the final moments of a person who previously lived there, frozen in time, whose conclusion (as shown by the last things that mattered to them) reveals a little more about that environment.

https://pixune.com/blog/environmental-storytelling-in-games/

That's what most of the people who complained missed about Fallout 4's story. It wasn't spoon fed to them like second-rate, spoon-fed, lead you buy the nose linear-story, faux-choice CRPGs. There was more than 'just quests' involved.

Those environmental stories were there. They were everywhere and showed the tragedy and pain and failing and death of those who survived the nuclear war. And they went right past huge numbers of people.

Starfield is no different. And, like with Fallout 4, we have the same complaints by people who play it like a looter shooter because they expect the modern, second-rate 'tell, don't show' story telling that has ruined much of modern entertainment.

[cdarklock]

Originally posted by Zhorge:

There seems to be a pervasive myth that there is a lack of 'quality role-playing' in Bethesda games.

Roleplay is a process, not a product. If Bethesda games lack good role-playing, it's because you are not doing it.

I've constructed my character with a fundamental idea in mind: spoiled rich kid with impostor syndrome. He has the UC native, dream home, and kid stuff traits, and the Industrialist background. He's on the mining colony with Argos because he has a deep sense of inadequacy, convinced that everything he has, he ONLY has because of his privileged upbringing. He wants to feel like he has earned something.

The artifact storyline is weird for him. On the one hand, he is going out and getting these artifacts - they are a product of his hard work. On the other, he is getting this special treatment nobody else is getting.

When he does side quests, like debt collection for Galbank, he feels like this is his hard work. But it's also... not very hard at all. He just shows up and has a conversation or two. The result is money, but no real change in anything.

These conflicts make MY game really interesting and complex and deep. But the game can't make you do it, and can't even be very much help. It is up to the player to decide who the character is, and what drives them, and why they make the decisions they do.

And remember, if you're having half as much fun as I am, then I'm having twice as much fun as you.

[nomadpad]

Originally posted by cdarklock:

Originally posted by Zhorge:

There seems to be a pervasive myth that there is a lack of 'quality role-playing' in Bethesda games.

Roleplay is a process, not a product. If Bethesda games lack good role-playing, it's because you are not doing it.

I've constructed my character with a fundamental idea in mind: spoiled rich kid with impostor syndrome. He has the UC native, dream home, and kid stuff traits, and the Industrialist background. He's on the mining colony with Argos because he has a deep sense of inadequacy, convinced that everything he has, he ONLY has because of his privileged upbringing. He wants to feel like he has earned something.

The artifact storyline is weird for him. On the one hand, he is going out and getting these artifacts - they are a product of his hard work. On the other, he is getting this special treatment nobody else is getting.

When he does side quests, like debt collection for Galbank, he feels like this is his hard work. But it's also... not very hard at all. He just shows up and has a conversation or two. The result is money, but no real change in anything.

These conflicts make MY game really interesting and complex and deep. But the game can't make you do it, and can't even be very much help. It is up to the player to decide who the character is, and what drives them, and why they make the decisions they do.

And remember, if you're having half as much fun as I am, then I'm having twice as much fun as you.

yep dnd is just e rpg product, is up to the dm and players to make the roplaying happen.

wizards could create the best campaign in the world and if the dm sucks, and the players not motivated, there wont be any real roleplaying.

that aside, rpg is really lite on starfield and that is perfectly fine. it has to many features to just focus on the intricate rpg aspects everyone tends to only look at.

[Mike]

Originally posted by zackerie:

more npcs are essential than not. where's the ruthless judge dredd RP?

Essential NPCs or not, you can't use one type of RP (killing everything/everyone) as an example of lacking RPG mechanics/systems. Especially when outside of main missions the player has all kinds of choice and ways to roleplay different characters/builds.

Outside of many missions you can rob steal and kill whoever you want, but I guess since a few missions don't allow that to happen we should ignore these instances

I'm noticing the people who are arguing lack of RPG elements are only focused on main story and are ignore the choices players have OUTSIDE of those.

Is the main story as choice heavy as games like New Vegas? No but where Starfield lacks here, it makes up for is sooooo many different ways.

Let me use OuterWorlds as comparison. That game had many of the classic obsidian choices and big decisions that people would expect, but you know where a game like that failed uterly? In open ended exploration, in random events that can happen and most importantly gameplay freedom.

I would argue that there is so much to do outside of main missions that you can make or come up with better adventures/stories on your own then the pre baked missions that people are whining about.

My 70+ was not 70+hours of reading dialog choices, forcing my way through missions,..etc. No it was me literally ROLE PLAYING my character as I had wanted to from the beginning. Role playing use to be majority of PLAYERS imagination, but now a days people NEED devs to pre-write stories/encounters for people to feel invested in their characters which is sad.

[Zackerie]

Originally posted by Mike:

Originally posted by zackerie:

more npcs are essential than not. where's the ruthless judge dredd RP?

Essential NPCs or not, you can't use one type of RP (killing everything/everyone) as an example of lacking RPG mechanics/systems. Especially when outside of main missions the player has all kinds of choice and ways to roleplay different characters/builds.

Outside of many missions you can rob steal and kill whoever you want, but I guess since a few missions don't allow that to happen we should ignore these instances

I'm noticing the people who are arguing lack of RPG elements are only focused on main story and are ignore the choices players have OUTSIDE of those.

Is the main story as choice heavy as games like New Vegas? No but where Starfield lacks here, it makes up for is sooooo many different ways.

Let me use OuterWorlds as comparison. That game had many of the classic obsidian choices and big decisions that people would expect, but you know where a game like that failed uterly? In open ended exploration, in random events that can happen and most importantly gameplay freedom.

I would argue that there is so much to do outside of main missions that you can make or come up with better adventures/stories on your own then the pre baked missions that people are whining about.

My 70+ was not 70+hours of reading dialog choices, forcing my way through missions,..etc. No it was me literally ROLE PLAYING my character as I had wanted to from the beginning. Role playing use to be majority of PLAYERS imagination, but now a days people NEED devs to pre-write stories/encounters for people to feel invested in their characters which is sad.

I don't want to kill everything.

I want to kill one person talking about turning other people into slaves.

In every other roleplaying game I have ever played I at least had an option, maybe not to kill him then and there, but at least to give him a taste of his own medicine. That doesn't exist in starfield. and if you have to boil down my arguement to something I didn't say, please don't bother responding further.

I want to roleplay someone who goes planet to planet talking to people and bringing justice. I don't want to roleplay how you roleplay. I don't know where this idea of talking to other character in the world isn't roleplaying...

You have to realize my problem isn't that you found a way to roleplay how bethesda allowed you to, right?

[DistantReaper]

Role Playing Game. First Person Shooter. Looter Shooter.

Call it whatever you want, buddy. This game has very linear quest design and lacks player agency. It's a huge step back for Bethesda.

[Zackerie]

Originally posted by Mike:

Originally posted by zackerie:

more npcs are essential than not. where's the ruthless judge dredd RP?

Essential NPCs or not, you can't use one type of RP (killing everything/everyone) as an example of lacking RPG mechanics/systems. Especially when outside of main missions the player has all kinds of choice and ways to roleplay different characters/builds.

Outside of many missions you can rob steal and kill whoever you want, but I guess since a few missions don't allow that to happen we should ignore these instances

I'm noticing the people who are arguing lack of RPG elements are only focused on main story and are ignore the choices players have OUTSIDE of those.

Is the main story as choice heavy as games like New Vegas? No but where Starfield lacks here, it makes up for is sooooo many different ways.

Let me use OuterWorlds as comparison. That game had many of the classic obsidian choices and big decisions that people would expect, but you know where a game like that failed uterly? In open ended exploration, in random events that can happen and most importantly gameplay freedom.

I would argue that there is so much to do outside of main missions that you can make or come up with better adventures/stories on your own then the pre baked missions that people are whining about.

My 70+ was not 70+hours of reading dialog choices, forcing my way through missions,..etc. No it was me literally ROLE PLAYING my character as I had wanted to from the beginning. Role playing use to be majority of PLAYERS imagination, but now a days people NEED devs to pre-write stories/encounters for people to feel invested in their characters which is sad.

I wasn't even doing a quest, I was being a space trucker. but a planet hailed me and said they needed help with a ship. and during that help, the ceo of the planet told me he wants to kill these people stuck in a ship or he wants me to turn them into slaves, and instead of being able to kill him and going back to space trucking, I have to get rid of the ship one way or another.

but apparently that's not roleplay because I am not by myself exploring a computer generated planet.

[Mountain Man]

Starfield has enough choices and consequences to qualify as an RPG, even if those elements are not as pronounced as in a game like The Outer Worlds.

[Mike]

Originally posted by zackerie:

I don't want to kill everything.

I want to kill one person talking about turning other people into slaves.

In every other roleplaying game I have ever played I at least had an option, maybe not to kill him then and there, but at least to give him a taste of his own medicine. That doesn't exist in starfield. and if you have to boil down my arguement to something I didn't say, please don't bother responding further.

I want to roleplay someone who goes planet to planet talking to people and bringing justice. I don't want to roleplay how you roleplay. I don't know where this idea of talking to other character in the world isn't roleplaying...

You have to realize my problem isn't that you found a way to roleplay how bethesda allowed you to, right?

So one choice dictate whether something is an RPG is not? I remember the obsidian CRPG called Tyranny and it was literally an RPG where you play bad guys, hence the name. So, is that game or those like it not RPGs because you are limited in SOME ways to the rules the devs provided? No, Of course not! My argument is out of MOST RPGs games like Starfield has waaaaaay looser rules/limitations for the player to follow in general gameplay (not just big story missions).

Its a fact that every RPG has limitations, no one is arguing that, but Starfield and many other of Bethesda RPGs have the least amount of restrictions and rules holding the player to a certain playstyle. The facts are in the pudding as they have huge player bases that can replay them over and over and over, and even before mods got popular with skyrim, people played the crap out of morrowind, New Vegas, Oblivion..etc, because they had player FREEDOM.

I will reiterate 1 more time. Your argument is about ONE choice from ONE mission, while my argument is the OVERALL experience from the character creator, ship building, base building, surveying, bounty hunting, skill systems, faction quests, general exploration, random encounters....etc. You add all of those systems together and you have a RPG sandbox that allows the player soo much freedom to RP how they want (with-in the games systems of course).

I get your point on the specific example you made but thats NOT the whole game. Thats like .1% of a choice you will make in the game and for me the best parts have not been the quest decisions/choices (even though I did highly enjoy the UC Sysdef storyline).

[lizzo (report harder)]

over priced mid game imo

[Tal]

I have a hard time playing out the character I want to play, OP is false.
If I want to be a space pirate, yes I can do the side questline all way through.
I did that and it was kinda fun, but it ends there.
I can join the other factions and have to roleplay as a complete different person because I get pigeonholed as a different characer into that story.

The counter argument here is of course, I don't have to do main quest or the other faction/side missions, which is true, but that would mean this game has no content that makes sense doing.

So I think this game is poor at providing a good roleplay experience.

[Tal]

Originally posted by Mike:

Originally posted by zackerie:

more npcs are essential than not. where's the ruthless judge dredd RP?

My 70+ was not 70+hours of reading dialog choices, forcing my way through missions,..etc. No it was me literally ROLE PLAYING my character as I had wanted to from the beginning. Role playing use to be majority of PLAYERS imagination, but now a days people NEED devs to pre-write stories/encounters for people to feel invested in their characters which is sad.

Lol? it's a video game, the whole point is that a game subsitute's the player imagination, bringing it to life.
Why is it that when I stumble upon random generated quests that's asking me to kill a crimson fleet leader I can't just turn around and raid that civilian post instead when I'm a member of the Crimson Fleet. Even as an optional objective it would suffice, but nope.
There's no narrative feedback from the game, I just have to "imagine" I'm doing all these things in a non reactive world.

[Mike]

Originally posted by Tal:

I have a hard time playing out the character I want to play, OP is false.
If I want to be a space pirate, yes I can do the side questline all way through.
I did that and it was kinda fun, but it ends there.
I can join the other factions and have to roleplay as a complete different person because I get pigeonholed as a different characer into that story.

The counter argument here is o fcourse, I don't have to do main quest or the other faction/side missions, which is true, but that would mean this game has no content that makes sense doing.

So I think this game is poor at providing a good roleplay experience.

You don't get it do you? Why are you accepting to be a UC vangard if your RPing as a pirate? Why are you joining Freestar rangers if you RPing as a pirate?

Your point makes ZERO sense, because guess what choice you have as a player to do with those questlines? Decline them, ignore then, don't accept them...etc.

If your a pirate you should be attacking an boarding EVERY space craft you come upon to make you money and to get loot, why aren't you doing that? Why Aren't you going to the biggest cities and trying to steal as many valuables as possible to sell on the black market? Whay aren't you designing you ship to better secure contraband items or even getting the skill perks for that?

Its like arguing about a problem when the game gives you all of the solutions and your oblivious to them for some reason.

It sounds more and more like people want the devs to RP FOR THEM rather then making a unique experience for themselves using the tools the game provided. Its like people are saying they want more hand holding and stagnate dialog that leads to nothing but a few lines of dialog, but when a game gives the player real GAMEPLAY freedom people don't know what to do with it lol.

[Marosh]

Originally posted by zackerie:

it's a roleplaying game in a sense of you have to do the one thing bethesda wants you to do, or do nothing at all.

This.
The meme
Yes (yes)
Sarcastic yes (yes)
I don't care (yes)
No (yes)
has an origin and with Starfield it became worse than Fallout 4.

Ignore it and let the quest rot in your quest log or do it and have almost no variation, let alone "fail" the quest. Amazing RPG.

I tried to fail the big corpa faction. Did everything wrong that you can do wrong. Went to the extreme and killed people I should negotiate with (not many, nice essential npc feature), told them multiple times I'm the wrong guy for the job or I don't wanna do it and sabotaged their future money maker. My reward was promotion, promotion, promotion while they tell me how awesome I am. MVP of the corpa.
So my real roleplay choice is having the same outcome, regardless how I do it or ignoring this hub completly and never return because telling them no doesn't work.

Everything else works similar. "Hey, I need your help". "No, I don't care". "Ok, thanks. Here is your mission".

And once you play outside the strict intented "story" path it becomes hilarious silly. A guy attackt me and I killed him. A NPC told me in fear, she can't believe he tried to kill me. Next dialogue line she was furios with me. Why did I kill him. It was like an execution. I'm a monster. I mean.. what? Mood change withing 3 seconds? Guess they forgot to make this NPC essential.

C'mon, even Elden Ring has more option and consequences of your own actions.

"But other games...". Yes, I know. We have 2023 and Bethesda is not an indie game studio. It's their current Flagship.

Well, story and Bethesda is a big laugh for a long time anyways, so what gives. Atleast I don't play those games for that.
Usually they shine with enviromental story telling. Was nice in FO4 and they improved in FO76, funny enough. But here? Thanks to Todds "bigger is better"-only approach it falls apart. What is this enviromental story telling. Just some funny skeletons or objects or the combination of the location, other locations nearby, logbooks and then the objects? So... world building. Doesn't really work with the random generated POI approach. It's just some random stuff closer to easter eggs and not enviromental story telling. That is what you get when every location is it's own encapsulated world. Short nice moment and that's it.

But in the end, it's a me-problem. I might have expected a little to much from Bethesda. I thoguht after years and years of experience they analyzed the good and bad parts about their games. Guess I was wrong and "bigger is better" is the only thing they can do. Or it's just my PC. Maybe I need to upgrade.

[Tal]

Originally posted by Mike:

Originally posted by Tal:

I have a hard time playing out the character I want to play, OP is false.
If I want to be a space pirate, yes I can do the side questline all way through.
I did that and it was kinda fun, but it ends there.
I can join the other factions and have to roleplay as a complete different person because I get pigeonholed as a different characer into that story.

The counter argument here is o fcourse, I don't have to do main quest or the other faction/side missions, which is true, but that would mean this game has no content that makes sense doing.

So I think this game is poor at providing a good roleplay experience.

You don't get it do you? Why are you accepting to be a UC vangard if your RPing as a pirate? Why are you joining Freestar rangers if you RPing as a pirate?

Your point makes ZERO sense, because guess what choice you have as a player to do with those questlines? Decline them, ignore then, don't accept them...etc.

Did you not just read what I said, I am ignoring it and there's nothing to do in the game if I go this route. Pirate quest takes me around 8 hours and there's nothing else left afterwards, nothing in the game I can interract with that would make sense from a RP perspective. Hijacing spacecraft and thieving stuff is only so much fun. I don't need the credits or any of the stuff when there's nothing unique content to look forward to

[Mike]

Originally posted by Tal:

Originally posted by Mike:

You don't get it do you? Why are you accepting to be a UC vangard if your RPing as a pirate? Why are you joining Freestar rangers if you RPing as a pirate?

Your point makes ZERO sense, because guess what choice you have as a player to do with those questlines? Decline them, ignore then, don't accept them...etc.

Did you not just read what I said, I am ignoring it and there's nothing to do in the game if I go this route. Pirate quest takes me around 8 hours and there's nothing else left afterwards, nothing in the game I can interract with that would make sense from a RP perspective. Hijacing spacecraft and thieving stuff is only so much fun. I don't need the credits or any of the stuff when there's nothing unique content to look forward to

Then you have simply reached the limit of you personal enjoyment of the game, what else is there to say? Some people will get bored after a few quests, some people will spend hours exploring, leveling up, doing side missions, RNG missions, NG+, Re-roll character...etc.

Don't blame the game that gives you stuff to do with your character and you say those things are boring lol. After all, everything gets boring after a while and I don't know your playtime because i can't see your profile but I have 70+ hours and I'm still going strong (not many RPGs can do that for me).

There will never be a one size fits all for gaming or tastes, but I'm just tired of players trying to speak for EVERYONE just because they dislike a few things about the game. Everyone is entitled to their opinions but they are exactly that opinions, not facts.

In your opinion the game lack RP opportunities for your character. In my opinion there is plenty and I'm not even going to get to most of the factions quest with my first character because it would make so since for him to join other factions since he is UC all the way.

Some games give you a sandbox and world to explore with some handcrafted stuff to make your own experience up as you go, while others are straight forward with their systems and paths to beating the game. Its up to the players to get enjoyment out of different types of games.

I had the same feeling as you did but with No Mans Sky. I wanted to like the game but it was too loose and open for me where nothing felt meaningful. Starfield on the other hand has just enough of questing, world building, character building...etc that my character actually feels meaningful in the game world that was created. Not everyone will feel the same way, but that is what disagreements and discussions are for.