Is the Abrams that vulnerable in real life?

[Preach_A]

Hi, I´ve spent some time doing the "Long road" instant mission over and over again because I like the lonely wolf feeling. If I am careful, I usually spot the enemy before they do and can kill them, but if I get spotted, I´m either killed after one hit or the first hit leads to:
- One or two crew members are dead
- I´m tracked (can´t move)
- gun barrel is destroyed (can´t shoot)

Please note that I´m only talking about hits to the front. They usually pen, they usually do severe damage or instant kill.

The guy with that Russian "Bazooka" on his shoulder penned my tank frontally every time (!) he spotted me first. Now that I know where he is, I shoot him with HE, but I have to be more careful fighting him than fighting the tanks.

Considering that the enemies are Russian tanks from the 1950s and 60s I just wonder if the real Abrams would die that quickly. Actually I don´t think so.

[ActionScripter]

You can end the mission and look at AAR mode to see why and how your tank was disabled. The short answer, though, is yes it is vulnerable. Abrams is much stronger than many of its contemporaries in the ideal frontal armor areas, but it's not invulnerable and still has many weak spots.

In terms of survivability, "don't get penetrated" is quite far down the list of ways to stay safe. A focus on not being seen or hit is important, even for something as strong as the Abrams.

[Barleyman]

The M1 in game is early 80s version, not for example the M1A1 (HA) heavy-armour version which was used in Desert Storm. It's been upgraded quite a bit since as well.

Chobham was also only in the hull front, not in turret AFAIK.

Originally posted by Josh:

In terms of survivability, "don't get penetrated" is quite far down the list of ways to stay safe. A focus on not being seen or hit is important, even for something as strong as the Abrams.

Yeah, someone call Leopard 1 and ask how that's working out for it. First mistake is your last.

[ActionScripter]

Originally posted by Barleyman:

Chobham was also only in the hull front, not in turret AFAIK.

Not quite. "Chobham" is a fraught term considering the intricacies of the Abrams armor design history and debates over its labeling, but the turret and hull frontal armor are both generally considered to be the same type.

The M1A1 (HA) upgraded protection with DU elements, but only in the turret cheeks - it was otherwise essentially identical to the M1IP and M1A1 in armor protection. Of course, since the current theater is set in 1985, this is not relevant yet.

[Preach_A]

Well, I checked on Steel Beasts Pro, which is considered a very true-to-life hardcore sim and I played a similar scenario (Abrams M1A2 against Russian Cold War Tanks. I survived 4 direct hits, the 5th hit destroyed the stabilizer but didnt do any further damage. Distance was at about 1800m.

[Barleyman]

If only we had M1A2 in the game!

[Plebola]

Originally posted by Preach_A:

Well, I checked on Steel Beasts Pro, which is considered a very true-to-life hardcore sim and I played a similar scenario (Abrams M1A2 against Russian Cold War Tanks. I survived 4 direct hits, the 5th hit destroyed the stabilizer but didnt do any further damage. Distance was at about 1800m.

Where the hits landed are far more important than how many. If those 4 are to the turret front then that’s understandable. 4 hits to the side of the hull, even from early Cold War ammo, will have ruined the tank. The Abrams, like every modern tank is extremely vulnerable from the sides. In addition, just like every other tank, there are weaker spots on the front like the turret ring or the mantlet.

Also you used an M1A2, which has more advanced armor than the M1 and IPM1 we have in GHPC, so that works in your favor as well.

As good as steel beasts is, it’s specialty is not in armor representation, it’s in the operation simulation of the vehicles (buttons and functionality etc). Some of the tanks armor differs wildly from publicly available documentation (they wouldn’t use classified/controlled documentation otherwise the game would be controlled data and not able to be sold through standard public channels).

[Preach_A]

Plebola, I agree, you have a point about Steel Beasts Pro. Anyway, GHPC is a lot of fun and I´m getting used to it. Annoyingly, I couldn´t finish "Long Road" yet because one time I killed all but one and ran out of ammo, next attempt I killed all but got tracked so I couldn´t reach the last checkpoint. Uhhh!

[76561198009641933]

Statistics can be manipulated to suit politics. Look at who's producing the game and you will understand why stats are interpreted as they are. Enjoy the game, forget about it ever representing reality because that's just how things are.

[Tanker D18]

Like others have said, it depends a lot on where you get hit. The turret cheeks and the hull's front slope are effectively invulnerable to everything getting slung in the current version of the game.

A round that lands in the "shot trap" between the turret and the hull will still easily kill you, it's just less likely you're going to get hit there in the first place. If you get hit in the gunner's doghouse, driver's hatch or the commander's cupola it can easily throw frags that will kill or injure a crewman. Hits to the back deck will usually mess up the engine or transmission and force the crew to bail. Hits to the side of the turret will either penetrate the ammo stowage and cause the crew to bail or will penetrate the crew compartment and scramble them up. Everything .50 caliber and up will break your tracks.

They aren't invincible. I was an M1 tanker for almost a decade, I never took a hit on an M1 but I knew plenty of people who did: My tank commander my first tour in Iraq got hit by an RPG-7 in the front slope as a driver in a previous tour, left a scorch mark and a little hole in the exterior plate, didn't penetrate. I had a buddy from basic training take spalling in his elbow from a penetrating RPG-7 hit to the turret ring at the same time I was there the first time. I had an old platoon sergeant that got hit in the side of the turret by an ATGM, it penetrated, cut a huge gash out of his TC's backrest but managed to avoid killing the crew. My sister company commander's tank got hit by an EFP IED in the side of the hull, the reactive armor from TUSK actually prevented it from penetrating. One of my buddies who was a driver at the time got his center periscope hit by a huge frag from an IED, it caused the interior glass to explode in his face. There are plenty of videos of Iraqi tanks getting slapped around by ISIS ATGMs, almost always from the side or rear.

...So yeah, M1s can get messed up, it really depends on where you hit them. I remember all the way back in basic training listening to a speech from the training battalion commander, he told us to always remember two things: M1s are NOT invincible, and that a tank is a killing machine and it doesn't care who it kills - including you. So always be extremely careful, vigilant and follow safety rules because if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time you can get jacked up.

[Preach_A]

Tanker D18, thank you very much for so much detailed inside-information. Since I got better at playing GHPC I´m no longer killed that easily by AI.

[Mr.Gold]

Wait until advanced and bot so advanced soviet ammo makes it to the game. The standard M1 is not going to have a good time. The Soviet 3BM22 can pen the front turret and hull at least 1500m away (supposedly 2Km but round design renders it less effective past 1500m). The 3BM32 can Just slash through anything NATO will field in this game.

[Baylock]

Originally posted by Barleyman:

Originally posted by Josh:

In terms of survivability, "don't get penetrated" is quite far down the list of ways to stay safe. A focus on not being seen or hit is important, even for something as strong as the Abrams.

Yeah, someone call Leopard 1 and ask how that's working out for it. First mistake is your last.

Call a Leo 1, a tank that is highly mobile, and ask how getting from point to point without being seen, allowing one to get the drop on the enemy, to exploit the first mistake is your last approach, how that's working out?

The 'speed is armour' bit was already proven to not be much of a thing with Fisher's battlecruisers. However, speed *is* useful for moving to positions where one cannot be seen, and if one cannot be seen, it is exceedingly difficult for one to get hit.