Maruki was right and the Phantom Thieves are a bunch of naive, holier-than-thou, stuck up, kids

[Bill]

The original Persona 5's story is very satisfying because there is very little left that need to be added. The hero grew powerful, villians where defeated, twist where revealed, God died, the metaverse is destroyed, everything is back to normal. Great. Loved it.

Royal unfortunately just had to find a way to extend the story somehow to sell more copies and extend the metaverse just a little longer for one more boss battle. It wasn't a good or logical addition. If you remove the whole arc with Maruki, the whole story still worked.

The central message in Royale is completely convoluted and illogical. Imagine if we suddenly discovered a way to fix some trauma tomorrow like cancer or AIDS, would the Phantom Thieves destroy that research because we need suffer in "reality"? I don't know about you but "reality" is anything that's real. Since Maruki have merged the metaverse with the real reality in game, then any changes he make is in reality, how is that any faker than anything else in that universe at that point?

Who give the Phantom Thieves the right to denie billions of people around the world happiness just so they should suffer? "You should suffer because that's your 'reality'. " What a bunch of holier-than-thou, stuck up, and naïve children.

Also why Atlas made Maruki so likable and benevolent, the whole game I was agreeing with everything he said. It's rare in a game to make the villain so likable. Like what, he is suppose to be worse than any politician who wouldn't give 2-cent about your happiness and actively work against your well-being in reality, but this guy who genuinely want to see everyone happy is a threat to the world??

Completely illogical.

Atlas had to find some way to extend a story that have already ended satisfyingly in P5 so they could sell copies, and this is the best they came up with. Shame really.

[archonsod]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από renanqi001:

the protagonist goes free, Akechi turns himself in as a witness, and subsequently goes free as well. So if you are a 'good person', or more specifically, are considered good or redeemable BY MARUKI, you can avoid the law?

It gets even worse than that - what happens in Maruki's world if you happen to be a sadist, or otherwise get your rocks off by killing people?
Akechi of course being a prime example.

[SolsLuminous]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από archonsod:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από renanqi001:

the protagonist goes free, Akechi turns himself in as a witness, and subsequently goes free as well. So if you are a 'good person', or more specifically, are considered good or redeemable BY MARUKI, you can avoid the law?

It gets even worse than that - what happens in Maruki's world if you happen to be a sadist, or otherwise get your rocks off by killing people?
Akechi of course being a prime example.

Well then you just don't, all Maruki has to do is make it so you are no longer a sadist

[DaBa]

That's a very shallow analysis, probably why you arrived at this weird conclusion that isn't substantiated by what actually happens in the game. Probably a fair bit of personal bias there as well. I'll just touch on two key points you're completely wrong on because taking it all apart would take longer than I care to spend on this. Also I don't have to, just being wrong on one of these makes the rest fall apart:

Maruki's method is extremely flawed. There are a lot of obvious holes it in, a few of them being: how can we trust he will not be corrupted by his power, what happens when he's gone, what about people who wish for bad things, or situations where two wishes conflict. Also Maruki does not want the best for everybody. He wants what he THINKS is best for everybody. Kasumi's arc makes this extremely obvious by showing Maruki's method was not making her better, and what she ultimately needed is to actually face her grief and overcome it, only then does she actually heal and become a better person for it. Therefore, a blanket statement like "Maruki was right" is straight up false. You might still think his method was preferable, but it is nowhere even close to being the blatantly correct way you're trying to make it out to be. The fact you haven't even noticed the obvious issues with his method prove you didn't give this subject enough thought to even make up your own mind properly, let alone write a post like this with such misplaced conviction and try to persuade others the game's wrong.

Second point, the story of the game is not about who is right and who is not. Even the characters in the game acknowledge at multiple points that what Maruki is trying to do might work better for some people than their own method. The only reason they are going against him is because THEY do not want that reality. They aren't trying to save people from him, like they did with the god of control, they are doing it purely for their own reasons. They know and even acknowledge it in the in game dialogue that they realize they are probably going against what a lot of people actually want. Maruki vs Phantom Thieves is a clash of two conflicting ideologies, which the game itself acknowledges as both being valid solutions with it's pros and cons. If you push to the end then yeah, Phantom Thieves will prevail of course because that's who you're playing as, winning the game means you have to beat Maruki. And if you don't like that, you don't even have to do it. The game even gives you a choice for crying out loud... you can literally agree with Maruki and get an ending where everybody is happy. If you think Maruki's method is correct, you can have that ending! Therefore, you're also wrong when you try to claim that the game's message is that Maruki is somehow wrong and Phantom Thieves are the only ones who're right. If there is any message in Royal's story, it's definitely not the one you're describing.

Maybe that's why you think it's "convoluted and illogical", because it's not trying to give you a black and white scenario with a simple conclusion that everybody can agree with, like most media does these days. The game actually dares to treat it's audience like intelligent people, and present them with an interesting moral conundrum with not so obvious an answer. You actually have to make up your mind on your own and not just think what the game wants you to think. I can definitely see how for some people being required to suddenly think for themselves and make up their own minds might be "convoluted and illogical"

[Exlz]

i don't care about perfect world where i need to sacrified him
cause i like him so much

so i choose to free(save) him and let everyone else take care of their own life

[The Ludovico Technique]

Nope, not at all. Maruki in the end, was in some ways the very monster that he believed he was fighting against. He sought unlimited power to manage everyone else's life, a state of non-existence for all of humanity where no one has to experience adversity, a contrived harmony. It reminded me of Hikawa's reason of Shijima from SMT III Nocturne.

[Wolfherz]

Sounds like you missed the entire point of the game. The good, the bad, and the in between are what makes us who we are. Growing from the lessons we learn helps shape us into who we have the potential to become. People taking the easy way out like Maruki aren't deserving of reality or really life at all. I get really tired of seeing people starting posts like this after failing to grasp even the most basic concepts of the game. It's really not that hard.

[weester9]

yeah, i've heard this before. i actually posted a discussion about the debate. anyways, the game doesn't really provide an argument against maruki other than akechi whining about the fact that it doesn't "feel right" or whatever. i honestly don't think either side was right. maruki had a great idea, but in execution, it kinda sucked. not everyone was happy because he didn't have enough time to grant all their wishes, but the phantom thieves were also being a bunch of egotists. both of them were making a choice that affected the general public without them taking the feelings of others into account. they should've just compromised tho.

[Lynfinity]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από weester9:

maruki had a great idea, but in execution, it kinda sucked.

I'd say the idea sucks and the execution sucks even more. The "no one will have to feel pain ever again" thing is absolutely riduculous and cannot be achieved no matter how godly your powers are. He has a noble spirit, yes, but ultimately he let his own emotional pain and regrets take over, clouding his judgement.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από weester9:

not everyone was happy because he didn't have enough time to grant all their wishes

What if a bunch of people want the exact same thing to be happy? How do you realistically please them all? And even if you somehow achieve that, how can you be sure that their appetites won't grow?

Also, what if Maruki dies? I don't believe he's immortal, even with the powers he acquired. What if he eventually dies of natural causes and his reality shatters, bringing people back into the real world?

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από weester9:

the game doesn't really provide an argument against maruki other than akechi whining about the fact that it doesn't "feel right" or whatever.

Akechi was against it is because he didn't want to be controlled by anyone else (*insert a Shido related flashback here*), and the Phantom Thieves were against it because they believe that overcoming struggles and hardships is an essential part of our life, a part you can't remove. At least without some devastating consequences.

And this is where we get our main argument against Maruki. Maruki's reality is one of brainwashing and a total control over people's thoughts and emotions, all in attempt to help them run away from their problems. Which is exactly what Maruki himself was doing the entire time - he was running away from his problems instead of trying to solve them. He basically tried to project his own denial and cowardice onto the whole world. This ties into the theme of the game - fighting for your happiness, helping the weak to overcome their struggles and making the world a better place one step at a time.

The Phantom Thieves may not be 100% morally correct either, but their beliefs are far more realistic and "healthy" in a long run, compared to what Maruki was trying to do.

"Making peace with adversity is the very essence of existence."

[Wiegs]

If you take all the bad away like Maruki intended it also takes all the nuances away, what is good if you have no notion of what is bad ? Ultimately he would also in a way take away humanity's drive to improve itself and to work for a better tomorow. He was dooming humanity to stagnation, and potentially to a slow, painless extinction devoided of free will or true hapiness (kind of like a mass drug overdose)

[Revenant Ghost]

If you allow Maruki to control every facet of your life, you are nothing more than a puppet. That's what the Phantom Thieves are fighting against.

[As}{tray]

I second this.
Playing through Maruki's arc made me disgusted with Joker and how he literally pairs up with a serial killer to destroy everyone's (his "friends" included) chance to have a happy life. That's some A+ garbage writing alright.

[allknowingeel]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Ashtray:

I second this.
Playing through Maruki's arc made me disgusted with Joker and how he literally pairs up with a serial killer to destroy everyone's (his "friends" included) chance to have a happy life. That's some A+ garbage writing alright.

Not really. I would hate living in a world that is controlled by Maruki. He doesn't exactly make people happy, he orders them to think a certain way and they do. If he decides, "Actually, I don't think you should be a musician, let's make you this instead" then that happens. He is quite literally brain washing people. And what happens when Maruki dies? Then everyone just wakes up anyway and due to the reality being quite literally messed with, it could cause economic collapse as reality tries to repair itself.

As for pairing up with Akechi, it's more like, "You're interests and mine temporarily allign so we'll work together simply because we have a better chance of winning if we work together than if we didn't". It's a pretty smart decision. It doesn't mean they forgive him or just forget all the bad ♥♥♥♥ he did, it just means that they are increasing their odds of winning. If I were in Joker's position and I could get him on my side, I would.

[As}{tray]

I haven't completed the DLC yet, but from what I've seen, he is not brainwashing or "controlling" anyone, he listens to what people desire and makes it happen, simple as that. Yes, it's a completely dumb and unrealistic concept — and that's on writing again.
Even if it's somehow revealed later on, it still makes Joker a complete a$$hole, because he literally destroys lives of everyone around him before knowing anything, just for the sake of his own ideals.
I honestly don't know how can anyone romance Futaba or Makoto or Haru and just go and take away their parents from them. Especially when you yourself can check out the alternative and confirm that there's no catch or tragedy included.
And I don't think Maruki can die at this point, since the game already threw words like "god" at you quite a few times.

[Lynfinity]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Ashtray:

he is not brainwashing or "controlling" anyone, he listens to what people desire and makes it happen, simple as that.

And that's the problem. He's just letting the whole world run away from its problems, just like he did, instead of actually solving them. Spoiler if you've not reached that part yet: it's the exact same thing he did to Sumire - through his powers he made her believe she's Kasumi and laid before her a life full of lies, instead of helping her recover. You cannot tell me with a straight face that a false reality like that is a good thing.

[allknowingeel]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Lynfinity:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Ashtray:

he is not brainwashing or "controlling" anyone, he listens to what people desire and makes it happen, simple as that.

And that's the problem. He's just letting the whole world run away from its problems, just like he did, instead of actually solving them. Spoiler if you've not reached that part yet: it's the exact same thing he did to Sumire - through his powers he made her believe she's Kasumi and laid before her a life full of lies, instead of helping her recover. You cannot tell me with a straight face that a false reality like that is a good thing.

Yeah, it's more or less a life of denial. And once again, when Maruki dies, everything will go back to normal anyway, or the whole world will be destroyed as reality tries to correct itself (although that is more speculation), But when he dies and the latter doesn't happen, everything will go back to normal anyway.