Maruki was right and the Phantom Thieves are a bunch of naive, holier-than-thou, stuck up, kids

[Bill]

The original Persona 5's story is very satisfying because there is very little left that need to be added. The hero grew powerful, villians where defeated, twist where revealed, God died, the metaverse is destroyed, everything is back to normal. Great. Loved it.

Royal unfortunately just had to find a way to extend the story somehow to sell more copies and extend the metaverse just a little longer for one more boss battle. It wasn't a good or logical addition. If you remove the whole arc with Maruki, the whole story still worked.

The central message in Royale is completely convoluted and illogical. Imagine if we suddenly discovered a way to fix some trauma tomorrow like cancer or AIDS, would the Phantom Thieves destroy that research because we need suffer in "reality"? I don't know about you but "reality" is anything that's real. Since Maruki have merged the metaverse with the real reality in game, then any changes he make is in reality, how is that any faker than anything else in that universe at that point?

Who give the Phantom Thieves the right to denie billions of people around the world happiness just so they should suffer? "You should suffer because that's your 'reality'. " What a bunch of holier-than-thou, stuck up, and naïve children.

Also why Atlas made Maruki so likable and benevolent, the whole game I was agreeing with everything he said. It's rare in a game to make the villain so likable. Like what, he is suppose to be worse than any politician who wouldn't give 2-cent about your happiness and actively work against your well-being in reality, but this guy who genuinely want to see everyone happy is a threat to the world??

Completely illogical.

Atlas had to find some way to extend a story that have already ended satisfyingly in P5 so they could sell copies, and this is the best they came up with. Shame really.

[Killance]

Not not really.

Why bother living life when someone else decides how you live it? The whole point of the story is to choose your own path while not letting other decide your future.

Did you sleep through the entire story?

[Arifufu]

i agree about how maruki can give live aid remove suffering such as AIDS or cancer, but the only thing maruki did wrong actually he pretending like a true god, and "why bother living life when someone else decides how you live it?" Do u forget god? Don't we inderectly live in god's story? The differences is Maruki also a human being that's why PT can fight him, Yaldabaoth is also fake god so PT can fight him, but PT can't againts true god, such as after PT fight Maruki all PT's members separated because all of them have their true life, aren't PT's true life is a true god's story? So basically we also live in god's story? live in someone else's story?

Nobody live 100% in their own, we need to obey rules by government, rules of steam, rules of life, rules of our company, rules of subbreddit, youtube, discord, society, etc etc, so basically we still life in someone else's rules and reality, what we can decide how we spend our life. TBH in maruki reality all PT members is free to do anything, for example they can take photo and in the end Maruki only "interfere" by helping them who take photo so all PT members can be captured in a single photo, and nothing wrong with it, they live peacefully and even Maruki didn't interfere them unlike our true god, both are right in their way, however in the end no matter what Maruki is only a human being, only true god that nobody want to fight with whatever our true god's decision. That's why there's poor man and rich man, that's why there's disease and there's cure, that's all true god's decision, but in Maruki's reality only there's happiness and no suffering, so his reality is unbalance, that's what's wrong with his reality. I think he really want to make "mini heaven" but maruki will never make "true heaven", so let's seek heaven and i truly don't agree "why bother living life when someone else decides how you live it?" in this earth there's no way we can live w/o other's people interefering, we kinda also live in maruki's reality but with suffering.

The story itself it's good, whether it's logical or illogical or just to make P5R more longer than P5, but trust me somehow P5R to remind us that we still living in other people's reality / story no matter what your P5R's ending choice: live by a single person's reality w/o sufffering? or living by bunch of rules that can suffer u because ur mental is not ready enough to face real reality? Both still controlled by other people. Even to be perfectly honest true god's decision never logical, if u wanna seek the truth, ur logical thinking will never can accept what actual god's wanted, it can only be accepted by your faith.

[Bill]

Originally posted by Killance:

Not not really.

Why bother living life when someone else decides how you live it? The whole point of the story is to choose your own path while not letting other decide your future.

Did you sleep through the entire story?

Of course I paid attention. This is part of being naive.

First, Maruki wasn't taking away any freedom other than fixing whatever is wrong with your past. How does making you happy take away anyone's "freedom"? What freedom is gained here? The freedom to be misrable?

Second, anyone who use "Freedom" as a measurement for righteousness is naive. Every society have things you can do and things you can't do, unless we are talking about complete anarchy. It doesn't matter if you live in North Korea or USA, every society have rules, norms, social expectations. What freedom is Maruki take away? Are you in a jail? Does he implement censorship? Does he shoot you in the back of the head for saying the wrong thing? The only real reason anyone bring up "Freedom" is to use it as an unjust justification for subjugating other people. Like America bringing "Freedom" to yet another oil rich 3rd world country. Or the Phantom Thieves subjugating the entire population of the world to their will that no one asked for.

[Killance]

Originally posted by Bill:

Originally posted by Killance:

Not not really.

Why bother living life when someone else decides how you live it? The whole point of the story is to choose your own path while not letting other decide your future.

Did you sleep through the entire story?

Of course I paid attention. This is part of being naive.

First, Maruki wasn't taking away any freedom

He literally took away the freedom to choose. The teacher is an example of not choosing his path. Miruki chose his life and experience that led to a different life style. He forced a girl to live as someone else because she couldn't handle what happened.

It isn't naive to think you have the right to choose your future. Miruki's thoughts led him to believe he was a god that can change everyone's fate without their say so. No one has a right to determine your future and they don't have a right to decide your experiences. There is absolutely no point in living when someone decides your very existence.

If anything it's naive to believe people have the right to force someone into something else without their say so. Be it better or worse for their life.

[Faiyez]

Maruki's theme is literally named "Ideal and the Real". Taking Maruki's deal is akin to remaining blue pilled in the Matrix.

Which is perfectly fine, really.

Note that the game doesn't really judge you for choosing the alternative ending. It's a "bad" ending only in the sense that it's obviously not the true ending.

Probably the most compelling thing about Maruki is the fact that he can "bring people back from the dead". Although for all we know it's a powerful cognitive distortion or that those people are actually hommunculi.

Maruki is ultimately a mere mortal and he is fallible. I'd like to believe there would be inevitable unintended consequences that he doesn't even realize. I don't think that kind of ideal world is sustainable and that the problems and inconsistencies would become obvious in due time.

It's not reality, after all.

[Lynfinity]

Originally posted by Bill:

Imagine if we suddenly discovered a way to fix some trauma tomorrow like cancer or AIDS, would the Phantom Thieves destroy that research because we need suffer in "reality"?

Now that's a strawman if I ever seen one.

The entirety of Maruki's confidant has him talking about emotional pain, about "scars on one's heart", etc. Maruki wanted to get rid of this kind of pain, and for that not only did he erase all the traumatic past events, but also made it so people won't have to experience even the slightest emotional pain ever again.

But he didn't take into account that struggles and hardships are all part of our life and are necessary for progress to be made. He was so blinded by his wish to help people that he created a world of eternal stagnation where no one would strive to do anything. An empty world filled with fake happiness is what Maruki's reality is.

That is the reason why the PT's opposed him. Also, I like to think that they were a little salty on a personal level from the fact that Maruki erased all of their efforts to make the world just a little better.

Originally posted by Bill:

Who give the Phantom Thieves the right to denie billions of people around the world happiness

If you pay attention to good ol' flavor text while going about your business in town, it would appear that people aren't really happy. At least, not as happy as Maruki wanted them to be.

Besides, like Sumire said, what about people that want to fight for their happiness? Who gave Maruki the right to rob them of that fighting spirit?

[Douchebag Extraordinaire]

There are little detail thrown around in his "perfect" world where it shows the strings of his puppeteering and not all of it is good.

First, the world doesn't actually change, it's only people's cognition that does, just like how Sumire heard people calling her Kasumi when in reality they were saying Sumire. So all those dead people? They aren't real, none of it is.

Secondly, he's a human being, not only can he suddenly change his mind and bring ruin to people's lives on a whim (which actually happens in game) but what happens when he dies? Everyone just goes back to how the way it was except people were living a fantasy world without pain for however long he's in control? People wouldn't be able to cope with that, 50+ years of pure bliss and then suddenly smacked into a world full of pain.

Then there's conflicting interests, what if your Ren is in love with Ann and wants to spend his whole life with her but Morgana is in his human body and wants to spend his life with her, too? What if Ann doesn't want any of them? What if Yusuke wants to bang you but you don't want it? What if you want to bang Yusuke but someone else wants to bang you? Who gets their say?

It really reminds me of the whole "heavenly reward" scenario for a lot of religious groups, where there's so many conflicting ideas that it's all clearly ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ because not only does heaven not exist, it's also slavery at best and absolutely hypocritical at worst.

[Hanzo]

Originally posted by Bill:

Who give the Phantom Thieves the right to denie billions of people around the world happiness just so they should suffer? "You should suffer because that's your 'reality'. " What a bunch of holier-than-thou, stuck up, and naïve children.

Also why Atlas made Maruki so likable and benevolent, the whole game I was agreeing with everything he said. It's rare in a game to make the villain so likable. Like what, he is suppose to be worse than any politician who wouldn't give 2-cent about your happiness and actively work against your well-being in reality, but this guy who genuinely want to see everyone happy is a threat to the world??

Completely illogical.

You see only short number of people who are happy. Now imagine this. You love some person and this person loves other person. How happiness thing will work here? Or several people want to pass examps and enter prestige university, which could take limited number of people. Another sad thing you could think off, that happiness is something you could realize only when you know what unhappiness is. Lot of people don't really realize lot of good things before they lost them. So happiness is not somehing that set in stone, this is something that will progress further. Lot of people who happy now will take this happiness as granted and eventually they will need something else for their happiness. There is probably no limit to this.

[renanqi001]

I am astonished by the simplicity of some, especially these setting out to call others naïve. How these fail to realise the horror of one single person defining the term 'happiness' is a reflection of the masses' ignorance. I renew the claim made by several above that 'you slept through the gameplay', and hereby name the following points:
1. I am certain of the fact that if you adhere to the denial of neglect during the story, you are still guilty of rushing through the dungeon, in this case, the palace, blatantly. If you cannot recall this certain part of Maruki's palace, I suggest you go look up a video-
in the case of your friend in immediate danger, he warrants safety of yourself above others
in the case of pursuit of personal goals causing pain, he warrants forfeit and withdrawal
these are matters worthy of discussion, but not in the mind of Maruki - if you had answered incorrectly, he would have had you 'rehabilitated' by shadows. If you do consider your friend's safety to be less of yourself's at all times, or consider no goal or pursuit worthy of any struggle, then by all means, convert to Dr. Maruki, and hope that any human advancements, be them academic or cultural, even personal enhancements, can still be achieved without any pain nor struggle.
2. Numerous have already pointed out to you details and background stories in the game, here I will summarise - Maruki defines the public's happiness for them. In case you skipped through the Mementos section as well, you still receive requests in his version of Eden, a mother losing her parents and husband experiences too much pain, so she is sent into mental shutdown and leaves her child unattended; a conflicted youth harmed his sister by accident, so he commits forced suicide, presumably in protection of his sister. A teacher at school is completely 'rewritten' to please others. If these examples still arouse no worry from you, then consider this - have you in your life NEVER harmed another, with words or action? If Maruki decides to write you out of reality to serve another's happiness, will you still sing his praises?
3. I am doubtful that you even fully understand his intentions - Maruki does not simply 'help people', he actually considers everyone in need of his powers, and 'helps' forcefully. You are not allowed to deny help, nor able to object if you are involved in others' happiness. The game cannot enable him to simply write the protagonists out of existence because this is only a game. Consider this -
the protagonist goes free, Akechi turns himself in as a witness, and subsequently goes free as well. So if you are a 'good person', or more specifically, are considered good or redeemable BY MARUKI, you can avoid the law? Or if a friend or relative of your murderer wishes him to be set free, you would die satisfied? You do realise that Akechi did commit numerous MURDERS? Even himself is disgusted by this, and wishes to pay for his crimes on his own terms.

[Andre]

I had the same issue with P4G. The extra story made the main story weaker. It felt unnessesary. I like the new girl but the extra semester was just work.

[Helnano]

Originally posted by renanqi001:

in the case of pursuit of personal goals causing pain, he warrants forfeit and withdrawal
these are matters worthy of discussion, but not in the mind of Maruki

this part is what made me realize Maruki is not a good guy anymore. His research got shut down for BS reasons and I am sure it was quite painful for him, yet he pushed forward. Now he wants society to not follow his example? Why would he want to be the only one to achieve this? I am sure Maruki had the best intentions, but the moment he took over mementos and started to do 'mass changes' is when he lost it

Also Maruki's solution is not viable in the long-term
- Since the death of a relative is a source of pain, does this mean people will not die anymore? and since growing old is also a source of pain for many people, does this mean some people will be young forever? So Maruki is proposing a time loop without exit? Might as well choose to stay in the Matrix
- If my dream is to be the best player in any sport, that dream probably collides with other people who plays the same sport - so someone either loses their dream or their ambition. In other worlds, he is controlling and taking what makes you be yourself
- Maruki may be a false god, but even so I don't think he reached 'eternal' status. If he is indeed mortal, then what will happen when he leaves this world? The world would suddenly be painful again, and if other people take control, there is no guarantee that they would be as nice as Maruki. So even if Maruki is a good guy, the idea is flawed

[Ivas]

In the end of the day, isn't Maruki a great character if he's the cause of such debates?

[Punished Rusty Shackleford]

yeah but Ann is still best girl.

[Hatsodoom]

I mean, no one is forcing you to play that arc. If you really hate it so much, just don't max Maruki's confidant and the game ends like the original Persona 5.

[Dreamless]

Wow you have the most ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ childish baby brain I've seen. "WAAAHHH the Phantom Thieves are just as bad as Caillou WAAHHHH I want my heroes to be goodie two shoes!"
Grow the ♥♥♥♥ up manchild!