OP and UP cards

[Conrad Xa]

Some cards just feel too good. Here are my opinions after a half-dozen play throughs:

1. Banshee. Stats are just too good for a 3-cost (plus flying, plus killer war cry).
2. Cyclops. I know 5-cost cards are supposed to be heavy hitters but this guy somehow seems to crush the enemy way more than the others I've unlocked (including all the dragons, whose utility varies wildly by situation).
3. Gargantuant. The double-attack is SO powerful, especially coupled with the summon bonus or with equipment. Wonder if the second attack should be de-buffed or something.
4. Mountain Troll. Of the guardians this guy stands head and shoulders above the rest. Maybe it's something in my play style (cf. cyclops above!), but I find games go way easier when he's out.

And here are the ones that completely underwhelmed me and I rarely include in a deck:

1. Dreamstealer. I so want this guy to work. But with the randomness of what you steal, coupled with poor stats meaning he usually gets exactly 1 chance at it, it's not worth it.
2. Mummy Queen. She's...okay? I guess? Felt more like a 3-cost. But making her a 4/12 might be too much.
3. Gate of Fate. It's slow *and* random, so it's basically a crap shoot whether it'll be useful when it finally pops.
4. Equipment in general. Other than specific combos, which are really hard to pull off. I feel like Equipment cards need a rethink. Maybe they all become satchel cards. Maybe they're a new type of cards. Maybe I need to 'git gud'. But the chances of getting the equipment you need for someone relevant--especially if not playing a melee-focused Summoner--mean I never bet on that.

Anyway. Having a blast, great game, and thanks for listening!

[Ross]

Hi Conrad Xa - welcome to our community and thank you so much for taking time to share your feedback!

I really enjoyed this comparison you have here demonstrating the cards you like and those you don't (and why). This one of the best forms of feedback a dev can receive as it provides insights on both the strengths and weaknesses of the game.

OP Cards Response:

1. I think you may be right on the Banshee. Did a quick check on other Cost = 3 units, and she's the only one with 5 attack. Considering her other abilities, I think a drop from 5 to 4 power wouldn't diminish her attractiveness.
   
2. I'd prefer not to diminish the Cyclops too much, but rather raise the other 5 cost units up if we can. The Cyclops already has a natural weakness: pierce units. A single killer bunny can ruin his day ;) Dreadnought Titan feels pretty close in comparison (with some more health over armor). The dragons all have flying, which increases their utility quite a bit. Here's the current cost 5 units lineup for easy comparison:
   https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2837402125
   
3. Mountain troll too is a pretty rock solid...until you encounter Rabbitus in the forest ;) Here you might want the Barbarian on your team instead.
   
4. The Gargantuant is indeed such an awesome creature (one of my favorites, too). I suppose the argument of why choose other Guardians comes down to how they synergize with your specific deck (ex: need for healing, combos with marauders, etc.) Also the Garguant is not as well suited for taking on hordes of minions as characters like the Barbarian, Bear, or Arcane Giant.

UP Cards Response:
I'm more concerned about this feedback. My goal is to make all the cards to feel awesome so there's a genuine tension when you have to choose between them ;)

Let's see how we can raise the bar on these call-outs and make them more attractive.

1. Dreamstealer - My first instinct is to reduce his cost, but this would directly impact Stolen Dreams spell (which already costs 2). So our choices here are reduce both cards cost by 1. (I think that might be too much, though). Or, we can improve his stats a bit. At 2/6 he's a bit underpowered for a cost 3. What about 3/7?
   
2. Mummy Queen - Increasing her power does feel a bit much considering a Magma Giant has power 4. Perhaps the problem is that her ability requires her to turn and face the Summoner after her attack to channel the life restoration. This means she has less opportunities for counterattack, and needs more life. I think pumping up her Life from 12 to 14 or even 15 would help her last longer and provide more utility. Only 2 other Guardians have 14 life (Samurai and Rock Giant) . At 15 life, she would have the highest reserve of all the Guardians. Thoughts?
   
3. Gate of Fate - Agreed (too slow and random). I think the problem here is the cost. I'll drop it from 2 to 1. That way, it's a really cheap blocker unit and you get a much better deal on whatever unit pops out, even if it's not a Cyclops ;)
   
4. Equipment - Honestly, I agree that it needs a lot more development. Others have suggested a simple inventory system so that equipment can have lasting effects. I'm still on the fence about it. I like eliminating excess menus where I can to improve gameplay flow, and such a system I think is relevant only to the adventure mode and probably not for Battles/PvP mode. But, I do really like seeing the player reactions to the "transformations" (seeing how the character looks different after being equipped) - so perhaps we just need more variety in choices and more relevant ability changes. I will also say that as it stands, equipment is much more effective in melee decks (particularly the Fighter Mage). One of my favorite custom decks is called "Soldiers" and it's basically the FM, a bunch of Ironclads, a Barbarian and a whole lot of equipment. Summon a bunch of little soldiers and then arm them to the teeth.

[Scribe]

The Dreamstealer is a favorite of mine. Not because it's effective, but because it's so much fun! 😂
I've had my fair bit of backfires with him. Not sure tweaking it's stats would really change the consequences of such outcomes. One thing I have wondered is: what if he would target himself only as a last resort, rather than as the closest/priority valid target (if I understood its logic correctly)? Maybe it's only an impression on my part, but I think what would be much more effective really is a way to limit risks.

[Prt Scrn]

I've played with all of the 5 cost and 4 cost cards now, and I'd say 70% are in a really good space. In the 5's, I'd say the Black and Bone dragons are lackluster. In the 4's, the arcane assassin takes too many resources to use effectively.

[mr.kitty]

Originally posted by Prt Scrn:

I've played with all of the 5 cost and 4 cost cards now, and I'd say 70% are in a really good space. In the 5's, I'd say the Black and Bone dragons are lackluster. In the 4's, the arcane assassin takes too many resources to use effectively.

I love Torgo. I'd say he's just a little tough to use effectively sometimes, though I think a 3/9 with Backstab: +7 damage would be better. Would still have his power stab, but could handle more fodder and uncomfortable positions. I can usually make use of the backstab, but he really falls off in hardcore against later bosses with them having all that extra health, so he often just gets his hit in and dies.

Dreamstealer definitely has too many negative cases due to potential for RNG to fail you.
Feel the same way about stolen dreams, but wouldn't consider it 'weak' enough in the average case to be less than 2 mana. I tried it a couple times and couldn't deal, not sure if there's really a way to improve it without a big alteration (unless it targets their highest-cost specifically, or something? Maybe if they have an empty hand it defaults to a random from their deck?).

Big swipey 5-drops stronk. Especially if you go first and can pass your turn from a safe spot, then drop it turn 2. Best way to win tough fights when low on cards imo. In most card games I've seen, the small cards always seem to be the best for your deck, and here I'd say that's still true as it's been my experience, but slightly less extreme here just due to the 5-drops being so much stronger (5 soljuants vs 1 titan, titan wins; 3 2-drops, titan still usually wins; not that more meat shields isn't often better in actual fights).

I do agree about the dragons *feeling* a little less strong, though that's probably because they don't have the knockback, which always feels good. Also bone dragon no lungs no breath attack RIP.

[Scribe]

I've been wondering more about the Dreamstealer. What is the exact logic for it's targeting? Is the AI actually applied, it some simpler logic?

[Ross]

Originally posted by Scribe:

I've been wondering more about the Dreamstealer. What is the exact logic for it's targeting? Is the AI actually applied, it some simpler logic?

Unless the card pulled has an auto-designated target, it will cast the spell on the closest valid target (similar to the Stolen Dreams spell).

[Ross]

Originally posted by Prt Scrn:

I've played with all of the 5 cost and 4 cost cards now, and I'd say 70% are in a really good space. In the 5's, I'd say the Black and Bone dragons are lackluster. In the 4's, the arcane assassin takes too many resources to use effectively.

I'm definitely shocked to hear the Skeleton Dragon is lackluster :O

With the highest power (7) of any unit in the game and the Vulnerability (3) hex, it is statistically one of the best cards (often game ending when timed properly). But, sometimes "data" doesn't correspond to "feel"...

Originally posted by mr.kitty:

I do agree about the dragons *feeling* a little less strong, though that's probably because they don't have the knockback, which always feels good. Also bone dragon no lungs no breath attack RIP.

Ok, that helps quantify the "feel" aspect, thank you! I suppose seeing units get knocked around like rag-dolls does feel better. I don't think it would imbalance the dragons too much to give them some knockback.

Then again... Skeleton Dragon with ability to initiate a combo on Vulnerable (3).
...shudders...

Rethinking here... Perhaps dragons with breath attacks can have a knockback added. I think that makes them more versatile rather than imbalanced (since the knockback doesn't amplify their existing abilities).

For the Skeleton Dragon, I could see potentially adding Swipe (that's still pretty devastating at 7 power) or potentially Vigil - that would make it much more scary to attack the dragon. I think I'm leaning towards that, but let's hear some more from our players on these potential changes. What do you think?

[mr.kitty]

On the 'vigil' thing, I'd say feel-wise it'd be too passive even though it'd make it stronger; it's the sort of thing that usually feels more impactful as a threat attached to an enemy I want to take down rather than something I utilize. I think something *like* knockback that makes it feel stronger would be better. Even an indicator for vulnerability like some red or black mist particle effect or a hovering skull w/a (red?) number would make it better, or maybe a stun (or both)? Idk maybe stun is also too 'passive'-feeling. Maybe it'd be good to just look through the whole list of things like pierce & so forth, and consider wierder(?) things like rotating the target or something.

[mr.kitty]

Another thing I'd like to note about vigil is how not only did the update weaken it since one of its use cases was extra combo triggers (until you run out of knockback effects and/or adjacent spaces) but also that I tested the vigilant card a fair bit and it was already even more lacking than I thought it was. At this point I'd actually pay gold to *remove* it from my deck if I had to. I wouldn't even want it at 1 mana, unless it also gave +1 HP or something.

I'd also like to note that the case where it was most effective when I did test it was the combo-related case, whenever I played it on a tank (this worked okay 2 times out of the 5 times I did it, one of which was on my elf hero). This means its best use case (in my experience) is actually less effective than it was before. This poor card needs a buff lol.


And since it's relevant I'll say how I feel about the other cards I felt needed more:

Bloodlust - It's okay (its conditional rarely ever matters when I use it), but I think it should be +3/+1 to help them live to get out plenty of smack.

Demonic Strength - If it's meant to synergize with demons, I think it should buff the demon itself more, too; +2 HP to hero AND target if a demon might be enough? Might still need a little more (3 HP like it is now?), but not 100% sure. Could alternatively make it a +2 HP to all ally demons or something instead. I'd say it'd be more comparable to Orc Warhorn in this case, which could justify altering the deck quite a bit; Orc Warhorn is good enough to justify it, so why not its demonic counterpart?

Lotus - Kinda meh. +4 HP or 5 if a plant (since it's 'lotus')

I mentioned/compared some of these on another thread/threads but putting them here too feels right. I'm sure there will be a few more in the future that need changes; wonder if maybe a card playrate/appearance frequency measure could be useful? I know some cards aren't necessarily that weak just because they're used less often, but if there are any extreme outlier cases it could at least catch those (cards so unloved we don't even think of buffing them because they don't cross our minds, perhaps?).

[Ross]

Originally posted by mr.kitty:

Another thing I'd like to note about vigil is how not only did the update weaken it since one of its use cases was extra combo triggers (until you run out of knockback effects and/or adjacent spaces) but also that I tested the vigilant card a fair bit and it was already even more lacking than I thought it was. At this point I'd actually pay gold to *remove* it from my deck if I had to. I wouldn't even want it at 1 mana, unless it also gave +1 HP or something.

This is a good point. The change to the combo system did weaken Vigil quite a bit. I think I would change the Vigil units so that they combo attack at full power.

Originally posted by mr.kitty:

Bloodlust - It's okay (its conditional rarely ever matters when I use it), but I think it should be +3/+1 to help them live to get out plenty of smack.

Demonic Strength - If it's meant to synergize with demons, I think it should buff the demon itself more, too; +2 HP to hero AND target if a demon might be enough? Might still need a little more (3 HP like it is now?), but not 100% sure. Could alternatively make it a +2 HP to all ally demons or something instead. I'd say it'd be more comparable to Orc Warhorn in this case, which could justify altering the deck quite a bit; Orc Warhorn is good enough to justify it, so why not its demonic counterpart?

Lotus - Kinda meh. +4 HP or 5 if a plant (since it's 'lotus')

If you've happened to play Magic the Gathering, I would guess you favor green ;)

As a counter point to consider on these buff cards: Cards with permanence are generally going to have a higher value than instants. For example, Heal Minor Wounds heals 5 for 1 mana. Its full potential can be achieved only on units that are injured by 5. Lotus, however, heals 3 100% of the time because it also bolsters max health.

Cards like bloodlust/demonic strength have to be balanced against direct damage spells (which again, are one use) whereas permanent buffs are resuable for the duration unit is alive. Because the buffs can be applied selectively, it makes them even more potent as a buffed Guardian is generally harder to deal with than a 4/4 individual creature.
[/quote]

Originally posted by mr.kitty:

wonder if maybe a card playrate/appearance frequency measure could be useful? I know some cards aren't necessarily that weak just because they're used less often, but if there are any extreme outlier cases it could at least catch those (cards so unloved we don't even think of buffing them because they don't cross our minds, perhaps?).

I can look into pulling some data on this.

[mr.kitty]

Originally posted by Ross:

As a counter point to consider on these buff cards: Cards with permanence are generally going to have a higher value than instants. For example, Heal Minor Wounds heals 5 for 1 mana. Its full potential can be achieved only on units that are injured by 5. Lotus, however, heals 3 100% of the time because it also bolsters max health.

Cards like bloodlust/demonic strength have to be balanced against direct damage spells (which again, are one use) whereas permanent buffs are resuable for the duration unit is alive. Because the buffs can be applied selectively, it makes them even more potent as a buffed Guardian is generally harder to deal with than a 4/4 individual creature.

I'm aware that permanent effects are stronger, that's why I compared it to orc warhorn. DS didn't feel that great to play when I tried to make use of it, and the HP gain usually didn't mean much. The unit would usually just get 1 or 2 swings when I had a reason to use it, which if you compare that to a straight damage card isn't that great. 4 damage now is better than 4 damage later, so even if it was 2 hits consistently it'd still be worse than straight damage.

DS gives +2 permanent damage. Orc Warhorn gives at least +2 if you've acquired guardians or played any units at all, and +2 HP on top of that. It's already better before peak effectiveness or average cases are compared. Average case it's WAY better, especially if you have any orcs/goblins which are often good anyway. I want the demon theme to have at least somewhat close levels of strength, and imo DS should be the demon-style OW, which theme-wise it'd make sense for it to be 'selfish', but doesn't feel like it's about demons if your demon/demons aren't bigger. That's why I suggested +2 HP to hero & the demon, the card isn't that different numbers-wise, but I think feels better.


Lotus is one of the 1st cards I played out heavily, and I never felt like it was doing much, no matter who I played it on. The buff wasn't about doing math comparisons, but just feeling like it wasn't a great card. Trying to figure it out with math of why it felt bad came after. The part about giving more HP to plants for lotus just seemed appropriate for a flower, so I still want that part even if you don't buff its base effect. Hopefully it will turn out to be more useful in that case if, say, a plant-themed chapter is released.

Also I've never once seen a case where a card that needed healing didn't get at least 3 from minor healing. I didn't use it quite as much as lotus, but definitely found it more useful. Won't be playing lotus again unless it's changed but I still use minor healing sometimes.

[Ross]

Originally posted by mr.kitty:

The buff wasn't about doing math comparisons, but just feeling like it wasn't a great card.

This is why I appreciate these discussions so much. There's often a disparity between mathematical accuracy and psychological perception. Successful game's aren't so because they are 100% perfectly balanced, but because they "feel" right. So this kind of feedback always weighs most heavily for me.

Of course, the other piece I have to remind myself is that what feels right will differ between players of different styles. There's going to be players like bombarding their opponent to the ground with direct damage, those that like buffing up their units into super units, and those that like more subtle/cunning approaching (counter spells, mind control, traps, etc.) Vigil, for example, is definitely one that falls into a specific player type.

As long as the changes don't under-value alternative approaches (because those other approaches are no longer economically/resource-wise viable comparison) then we're in good shape to drum up a greater feel.

[Frosty the Pyro]

While I didnt have any qualms with dreamstealer when i used him, if you want a buff, give him pierce, it feels a lil bad when he doesnt use his ability due to armor or block or the like.

I havent goten to USE the skeletal dragon yet, but as a ball of stats with a strong vulnerability debuff, I wouldnt think it needs much of a buff. If anything give it a breath attack like the other dragons have (that applies vulnerability). I do agree that black dragon feels subpar to the others, maybe because its breath attack is so much less useful than the frost dragons.


Also a bit of question on goodest loyal boi, the wolf. his warcry gives a damage bonus to allied animals untill the start of your next turn, which is pretty damn good as that typically means it lasts through the enemies turn to power your retaliations. But as he is loyal so it is not uncommon for him to start on the field do his howl and then your turn starts before anyone gets to do anything, essentially nullifying his warcry. Having a loyal boi is good even without the warcry, but it is a lil disappointing to watch him howl at the start of each battle. Not that the almost 30 loyal fenix fox army really needed it, I did kill the gold dragon in one turn on the third stage and highest difficulty with them, but its natural to want more

[Ross]

Originally posted by Frosty the Pyro:

While I didnt have any qualms with dreamstealer when i used him, if you want a buff, give him pierce, it feels a lil bad when he doesnt use his ability due to armor or block or the like.

I havent goten to USE the skeletal dragon yet, but as a ball of stats with a strong vulnerability debuff, I wouldnt think it needs much of a buff. If anything give it a breath attack like the other dragons have (that applies vulnerability). I do agree that black dragon feels subpar to the others, maybe because its breath attack is so much less useful than the frost dragons.

Excellent suggestions, thank you! I'll give the Dreamstealer Piece - that's perfect.

I'm hesitant about buffing the Skeleton Dragon further (his ability is really quite powerful, darn near close to a disintegrate spell, even more so if you have a couple archers). But, I like the breath attack idea - that would be pretty powerful with any kind of combo - like a fireball or a conflagration. Effectively +3 damage to whatever. Really powerful if you have multiple blasts to follow up with and really rake in the damage.

Noted on Black Dragon. I could either:

1. Make breath stronger by one point so its (-4/-4). That's really powerful though, and arguably better than the Fire Dragon flame. So, to compensate, I would want to amp up the fire dragon breath from 4 damage to 5.
   
2. I could give the Black Dragon a Knockback and maybe some more damage for straight up attack. The other two dragons could potentially have knockback as well since it doesn't stack with any other abilities.

Thoughts on these alternatives?

Originally posted by Frosty the Pyro:

Also a bit of question on goodest loyal boi, the wolf. his warcry gives a damage bonus to allied animals untill the start of your next turn, which is pretty damn good as that typically means it lasts through the enemies turn to power your retaliations. But as he is loyal so it is not uncommon for him to start on the field do his howl and then your turn starts before anyone gets to do anything, essentially nullifying his warcry. Having a loyal boi is good even without the warcry, but it is a lil disappointing to watch him howl at the start of each battle. Not that the almost 30 loyal fenix fox army really needed it, I did kill the gold dragon in one turn on the third stage and highest difficulty with them, but its natural to want more

Thanks for sharing that! There is a bug with the wolf where it's ability wears off before the buff can be utilized at the start of turn. I haven't decided how to fix it yet. Either I'll remove the howl altogether (effectively, not count "Warcry" as activating for loyal units that carry over to battle) or figure out how to fix the trigger so it counts as having entered during the first turn of battle if it carried over.

The same strangeness has some inconsistent rules for the enemies with Warcry as well (ex: bandits throwing knives or the orc huntress firing its arrow). I believe the abilities should work consistently for both player and enemy, so let me know which of those you prefer as a player as well.

[Frosty the Pyro]

The simplest way I can think of to solve the wolf warcry trigger is to make the duration "untill the end of the enemies next turn" instead of start of yours. This wont make any difference on normal play, because except at the very first turn thase triggers happen essentially at the same time. only exception then would be ambushes, which wouldnt feel odd as it would just be part of the cost getting ambushed

For the black dragon, -4/-4 would be a notable buff, due to it now hitting breakpoints for several orcs as well as earth drakes. But I am not sure if thats truly the issue. Again compare to the frost dragon (which is freewill so is always available as competition). A reduction in attack power reduces the targets ability to retailiate, and attack next turn, both things that frozen does better (frozen also prevents assorted abilities and enemy movement), and the frost dragons breath deals 2 damage, so thats only 1 less than the -3, but the 2 also has some permanence as damage, while the -3 is gone next turn.

So thats how I would tackle it, try and add some permanence, some examples off the top of my head

give it some damage and lower the health debuff (so 2 damage and -3/-1). while there are some targets this will be worse against (the 2 armor, 3 health marauders) for the most part is a buff. Damage, simple and easy.

create a "wither" mechanic, where instead of ending the debuff reduces in power. IE the breath would have "wither 3" so the target would get -3/-3 and at the start of their turn wither reduces by 1, (-2/-2) then on your turn you hit em again and now hey are at wither 5 (-5/-5). Wither could just be just for the health, and the attack works as now also. wither could open modifications to other cards as well

make part of the debuff permanent, ie the breath gives -1/-1 (permanent) and -2/-2 untill end of next turn. This one might be slippery, permanent attack reduction is pretty rare, and for good reasons.

in a non-permanence thought add the inflict from the breath to its melee, likely need to drop its power by one or two, would heavily reduce the retaliation it takes.

as a more niche way you could have it remove buffs and surprises from the target. wouldnt help most of the time, but when it does, it will help A LOT.


A final thought would honestly fit the bone dragon better (which as I said, I havent goten to use it, but in theory as a ball of stats and a strong vulnerability debuff looks fine to me, I only suggested it getting a breath attack for theme as a dragon) would be Wreck: summons an undead based on the target killed. weather that is doing it by type (for example kill an animal, summon a skeleton dog), stats, or mana cost I am not sure, but it would be cool. yeah that would be a neat bone dragon breath, inflicts "downfall: summons an undead" until end of their next turn.

geeze I did not intend to write as much as I did here...