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Steam Deck > Discussioni generali > Dettagli della discussione
MRK0017 28 ago 2022, ore 3:20
Why did they choose KDE Plasma as a Desktop Environment for SteamOS?
Really curious about this. Plasma has a lot of features and can be riced and what have you, but it's highly unstable in my experience, and on the deck, it's just as bad, on top of being some older version compared to what you can get if you install KDE Neon or Manjaro. On top of that, it's proably the worst one for touch devices, it's even worse than Windows by far.
I've used it for a while then I moved to GNOME and eventually settled for Cinnamon on my main desktop, but for the deck, i think GNOME would have been just perfect. So, why do you think they went for Plasma out of all DEs? Have they ever explained the reasoning behind sticking with Plasma for the deck?

Maybe it's just me, but Plasma really isn't for me, it's so bloated, unstable and annoying to use. On top of that, due to the immutable filesystem on Deck even trying to change the DE is just not worth it.
Ultima modifica da MRK0017; 28 ago 2022, ore 3:21
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Messaggio originale di GUNG-HO CHANG:
Tl;dr:

  • The issues you talk about has nothing to do with KDE Plasma and everything do to with SteamOS. To be fair, they are putting effort into improving it although they've done some weird things that has caused problems. Overall, we should be applauding what Valve is doing.

  • Whatever might give you the impression of KDE Plasma being bloated and unstable is caused by something else and for some reason KDE Plasma is being blamed. KDE Plasma is generally considered very stable and reliable.

  • Applications that are included by default is a choice by Valve. They are optional. And they are not a part of the DE even though they are housed by the KDE umbrella (it just means KDE does A LOT of stuff).

  • Thus, the choice of DE is irrelevant. Opting for a different DE would likely have made the OS bigger, more unstable, more resource hungry and taken more time to develop (which would likely either delay or negatively impact the launch).

  • It has a lot to do with how flexible and broadly polished KDE Plasma is. It's both modern and consistently good at basically everything. Other DEs might excel at some things but they also have parts where they kind of suck and have limits which KDE Plasma does not have. The latter part is what makes KDE Plasma a no-brainer for the Steam Deck.



Bonus tl;dr:
  • On a desktop computer without the need for custom menus and functionality the choice of DE would be easier. Personally, I'd still choose KDE Plasma (it's what I see in front of me right now) but for general PC use the other DE's disadvantages matter less and it comes more down to your UX experience and hunger for customisation.


Original post for the sake of sakeness:
When you say it's unstable, bloated and you have problems that has more to do with Steam OS than KDE Plasma. Not to bash on Deck software developers, but they've done some strange things to it and I'm sure it'll get a lot better as they gain experience and feedback. Steam OS needs more work, is all.

Since this thread was made a lot of stuff has improved a lot on the Deck. Also, it's not bloated and people need to look up what the word means. :P You would likely have a worse experience if they went with Gnome or anything else as it would be harder to customise and develop for. The Gnome developers are also more set in their ways about how it should work and it's not really made to be customised. It would also be limited in terms of other aspects of the system because Gnome is sort of a more stubborn "this is how we like it" approach.

Also, what you might think is because of KDE Plasma is very likely individual applications or system customisation made by Valve or any other part of the system. It's easy to get the impression that it's the DE having problems because that's the GUI (almost) always visible to the user. But there can be a million things breaking everything else.

Daily KDE Plasma users could tell you this is not the consensus. Steam OS has broken a fair share of things, but Valve does actually put a lot of effort into making it great. Give them time, be patient and be excited about it will continuously improve. Whatever you might think is unstable or boated about KDE Plasma is an impression caused by other things. Valve could also make the system a lot more minimal. My guess is that they don't have time to tackle every corner and also wanted there to be default applications to whatever you'd find in Windows. Optional apps are not the DE and is a choice made by Valve.

Both being based on Arch and KDE Plasma is the best choice they could make and despite some bumps along the way Steam OS is actually pretty cool.


KDE Plasma was the right decision and here's why:

  • Highly customisable (without being prone to breakage):
    To achieve this it needs to be structured so that the UI and UX are changed through values that won't mess up other aspects of the software. When you think of it, the default theme is just collection of settings and designs.

    What benefit does this have for the Steam Deck? It makes it easy for the developers to tailor the UI to the Deck and make changes to virtually every aspect of it without having to rewrite the entire DE. They can do so and expect it to work well without becoming a developer nightmare.

  • Resource-efficient:
    It is resource-efficient and can be configured to be lighter or heavier depending on eye-candy and whatever fancy stuff you wanna throw at it.

    While it's efficient it's also fairly lightweight. This depends on the configuration of course. For some reason a lot of people consider default applications as a part of the DE when in reality they're just applications that happen to be consistent with the DE. It has more to do with KDE's effort to make a broad and consistent experience than a question about resource-efficiency or bloat.

  • Consistent UX and UI:
    This is one of their core philosophies. It means that buttons, designs and behaviours should be consistent across applications and menus.

  • Complete and feature-rich experience:
    They have a solid and very broad application suite that is actually pretty good. Many of the applications are widely favored. If you prefer certain non-KDE applications you can just install those.

    This is not the same as bloat. Bloat is when you waste resources by adding affiliate applications with duplicate functionality and otherwise are way bigger or slower than it needs be. You can run a minimal KDE Plasma configuration if you want.

    The wide range of K-apps is one of the contributing factors to the consistent experience of KDE Plasma and they are optional. They are not really to be defined as a DE.

  • Stability:
    KDE Plasma provides a stable system and the focus on consistency is probably part of the reason. There will always be installations or situations where you'll find faults in any software but those who use KDE Plasma every day would tell you it's a very solid experience.

    They have also put a lot of effort into squashing as many bugs as possible and this fall the made great progress. This is something they have and will continue to focus a lot on.

  • Standardised platforms, feature-support and overall package:
    KDE Plasma follows standardised frameworks and is friendly when it comes to GUI integration and development. It has great support for recent technology standards and features you'd expect. It does really well when you count up all the different aspects of what a DE should support to satisfy a wide range of users. While it might not excel at everything it's good at virtually everything. There's no major things limiting it in ways other DEs are limiting. So while other DEs have some aspects where they excel, they have some bigger disadvantages and doesn't offer the kind of complete and polished experience like KDE Plasma.

  • They have similar goals and already have one of the best support for new standards:
    They have put a lot of effort into helping Valve with development for the Steam Deck and their values and goals align in many ways.

  • Some more stuff that I didn't write because I'll soon be late for an appointment and this ♥♥♥♥ is already long enough.



Messaggio originale di MRK0017:
Exactly, that's why I use Cinnamon on my desktop, it's basically XP on steroids. But maybe there's a reason why they picked something as bloated and convoluted as Plasma out of all the nice DEs available.
It doesn't sound like you have used KDE Plasma in a while. You should try it with an open mind and I'm sure you'd like it.

It is definitely not bloated and convoluted. And it's definitely not XP on steroids, not technically nor in terms of design. If you want it to look more like something else, you have the choice to change the look.

Bloat is not the same as providing a broad suite of programs, which are optional. KDE Plasma have a philosophy to extend the experience to include the expected essentials. It part of what makes KDE Plasma good as a whole. Them making a list of included applications to accomodate new users is a good thing that shouldn't be held against them. If they were not optional, sure. But they are. It's Valve's choice to include whatever application they included. Applications are not the DE.

They actually have put a lot of effort into making it use few resources and it's very straight forward. Whether you come from Unix-based or Windows-based OSs it's pretty easy to use and can be as advanced and minimal as you like. A default configuration should not be scary or difficult, especially not in a product that is offered to the general public. At the same time it will cater to any enthusiast or Linux nerd as it's open source and highly customisable. The latter people are who is most able to change what they don't like about the system. KDE Plasma cater to both without making it hard for new-comers.

So try KDE Plasma again if you're feeling open-minded, or don't. Either way, what you say isn't accurate and fair. :)
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Prezidentas 28 ago 2022, ore 8:49 
Messaggio originale di derram:
They "solved" session management by completely nuking it.

Messaggio originale di bbkr:
I think KDE was chosen due to:
* Highly customizable SDDM stack. It is really clever how they solved session management and game/desktop mode switching.
* Easier supplementary application/widgets development. QT simply crushes GTK in my opinion. I wrote desktop apps in both and QT is better designed from developers perspective.
well yeah since it's managed by steam.
#16
bbkr 28 ago 2022, ore 8:57 
Messaggio originale di derram:
They "solved" session management by completely nuking it.

No, they locked it. Session manager is still there and they used SDDM sentinel mechanisms to achieve this game/desktop mode transitions. Which makes sense as 99.99% of Deck users probably won't need second session opened.

From dev perspective this was reasonable choice because SDDM is very flexible to configure and allows to hide session aspect entirely.
#17
Lauren 28 ago 2022, ore 10:03 
Messaggio originale di MRK0017:
Really curious about this. Plasma has a lot of features and can be riced and what have you, but it's highly unstable in my experience, and on the deck, it's just as bad, on top of being some older version compared to what you can get if you install KDE Neon or Manjaro. On top of that, it's proably the worst one for touch devices, it's even worse than Windows by far.
I've used it for a while then I moved to GNOME and eventually settled for Cinnamon on my main desktop, but for the deck, i think GNOME would have been just perfect. So, why do you think they went for Plasma out of all DEs? Have they ever explained the reasoning behind sticking with Plasma for the deck?

Maybe it's just me, but Plasma really isn't for me, it's so bloated, unstable and annoying to use. On top of that, due to the immutable filesystem on Deck even trying to change the DE is just not worth it.
They should have just used Windows on this thing. I hate Linux so much it's insane. Nothing works properly at all. What a shame.
#18
Prezidentas 28 ago 2022, ore 10:43 
Messaggio originale di Lauren:
Messaggio originale di MRK0017:
Really curious about this. Plasma has a lot of features and can be riced and what have you, but it's highly unstable in my experience, and on the deck, it's just as bad, on top of being some older version compared to what you can get if you install KDE Neon or Manjaro. On top of that, it's proably the worst one for touch devices, it's even worse than Windows by far.
I've used it for a while then I moved to GNOME and eventually settled for Cinnamon on my main desktop, but for the deck, i think GNOME would have been just perfect. So, why do you think they went for Plasma out of all DEs? Have they ever explained the reasoning behind sticking with Plasma for the deck?

Maybe it's just me, but Plasma really isn't for me, it's so bloated, unstable and annoying to use. On top of that, due to the immutable filesystem on Deck even trying to change the DE is just not worth it.
They should have just used Windows on this thing. I hate Linux so much it's insane. Nothing works properly at all. What a shame.
I don't think you meet the minimum age requirement to have a steam account
#19
jrepin 28 ago 2022, ore 10:54 
I am very glad the chose KDE Plasma. I find it the most advanced, powerful and flexible/customizable desktop environment for computers today. And even if it offers a lot of features it is still very lightweight. And I have no problems with stability on any of the computers I use it on, including Steam Deck. Yes it is unfortunately an older version but even so it is the best of all the options. Hopefully we see the updated version soon too.
#20
Ulvhamne 28 ago 2022, ore 11:56 
Messaggio originale di Lauren:
Messaggio originale di MRK0017:
Really curious about this. Plasma has a lot of features and can be riced and what have you, but it's highly unstable in my experience, and on the deck, it's just as bad, on top of being some older version compared to what you can get if you install KDE Neon or Manjaro. On top of that, it's proably the worst one for touch devices, it's even worse than Windows by far.
I've used it for a while then I moved to GNOME and eventually settled for Cinnamon on my main desktop, but for the deck, i think GNOME would have been just perfect. So, why do you think they went for Plasma out of all DEs? Have they ever explained the reasoning behind sticking with Plasma for the deck?

Maybe it's just me, but Plasma really isn't for me, it's so bloated, unstable and annoying to use. On top of that, due to the immutable filesystem on Deck even trying to change the DE is just not worth it.
They should have just used Windows on this thing. I hate Linux so much it's insane. Nothing works properly at all. What a shame.

Personally, I've always had more problem with windows than linux. Gaming is the last bastion and that's entirely because of inertia. I'm happy they picked linux as the platform to build on, since it might chip away at that inertia against change.
And they are also fine with people tinkering with their docks, and have made drivers available for the people that want to use windows. I'd be fine if they, once they are done with getting the chosen platform away from the bleeding edge, start figuring out making the windows experience better.
But since MS is aiming to eat Valves cake, I don't quite see a good strategic reason for them to put themselves entirely in MS lap.
#21
The Letter M 29 ago 2022, ore 13:51 
Messaggio originale di MRK0017:
Really curious about this. Plasma has a lot of features and can be riced and what have you, but it's highly unstable in my experience, and on the deck, it's just as bad, on top of being some older version compared to what you can get if you install KDE Neon or Manjaro. On top of that, it's proably the worst one for touch devices, it's even worse than Windows by far.

Unless you were using KDE on Debian Stable, it should be fine. KDE is one of the oldest and most mature desktops environments for Linux. Since like 5.17, Plasma has been in the top 3 for smallest memory footprints. Sometimes beating LXQT and XFCE depending on the distro. As for touch devices, the QT library has been used for years on touch devices and it much better than GTK for this purpose.

Messaggio originale di MRK0017:
I've used it for a while then I moved to GNOME and eventually settled for Cinnamon on my main desktop, but for the deck, i think GNOME would have been just perfect. So, why do you think they went for Plasma out of all DEs? Have they ever explained the reasoning behind sticking with Plasma for the deck?

Cinnamon is great for desktop, but Gnome for anything is debatable. After the release of Gnome-Shell, there were memory holes that took a long time for the devs to finally fix. The UI is clunky and a hog. When someone says they want a lightweight UI, nobody ever says "Let's use GNOME". Now that I think about it, SteamOS 2 was using GNOME, that's probably why they switched to KDE.

Messaggio originale di MRK0017:
Maybe it's just me, but Plasma really isn't for me, it's so bloated, unstable and annoying to use. On top of that, due to the immutable filesystem on Deck even trying to change the DE is just not worth it.

Again, I'm not sure where you tried it before, but KDE Plasma has one of the smallest memory footprints for desktop environments.
#22
Xamindar 29 ago 2022, ore 14:15 
Sounds like OP needs to go back to windows. Linux is not for you if you think Plasma is "buggy" lol. Us who have been using it for 10 years are able to run it perfectly fine without breaking it.
#23
d[-_-]b 29 ago 2022, ore 17:22 
i dont know why they chose it, but its a popular choice.
not everyone is gonna have it as their preference and they cant accommodate everyone.
Id prefer awesomewm and its likely noone here would support that.

so it is what it is
#24
retrogunner 29 ago 2022, ore 17:34 
Messaggio originale di HTTP Error 418: I'm a teapot:
End of the day, no matter what DE they picked, someone would be annoyed by it.
Very True.

I could soapbox about personally avoiding KDE after v2.x as more cruft kept getting added - XCFE is my main but that's big for me. I'm fine with OpenBox or IceWM. On the Steam Deck, it's tolerable cause i don't have to look at it when gaming.

BUT, as to why Valve went with KDE, I think it comes down to Manjaro which is:
  • Arch Based
  • KDE by default (Manjaro swears it uses only 455MB RAM) snicker
  • And then there's Valve developer docs regarding SteamDeck testing before units started shipping. https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/steamdeck/testing#3
    We’re going to be installing Manjaro, which is an Arch Linux distribution, similar to what’s on Steam Deck. This version comes with KDE Plasma, which is the same desktop environment that will ship on Steam Deck – all in all it’s very close to the Deck OS environment, and a great way to test for system support.
And really, it doesn't matter when it comes to flatpaks. If the flatpak is Gnome based, it will pull down the gnome deps and display it as such.

What I'd like so see is KDE completeness.

For example, if you choose to leave in the Firewall Control Panel, make sure it works. It has a dependency for `ufw` -- guess what's NOT installed (at least a while back), hrm. `ufw`. Kind of important for an Internet connected device don't ya think. (Some OpenVPN and Wireguard would be nice too.)
Ultima modifica da retrogunner; 29 ago 2022, ore 17:34
#25
nox 19 set 2022, ore 9:13 
Here not to debate about DEs, but to ask about Gnome installation. Is it possible to install Gnome to survive between updates?
#26
Prezidentas 19 set 2022, ore 9:24 
Messaggio originale di nox:
Here not to debate about DEs, but to ask about Gnome installation. Is it possible to install Gnome to survive between updates?
no
#27
bbkr 22 set 2022, ore 6:42 
Messaggio originale di nox:
Is it possible to install Gnome to survive between updates?

Partially. You can install Gnome from Pacman manager and mess with SDDM session files to start it instead of KDE.

On SteamOS update:
* Your Gnome settings will be preserved.
* But your Gnome and SDDM settings will be gone. You can simply boot to KDE, run Gnome installation and SDDM changes again and reboot.

There are Pacman filesystem overlays that can preserve installed apps, but there is risk of versions mismatch between newer SteamOS and your applications, for example you install from Pacman Gnome linked to GTK 1.23 and next SteamOS has 1.66 that is not 100% backward compatible (just an example).

IMO - not worth it. If you need highly customized desktop then... simply boot separate Linux distro from SD card. It will be less painful process than fighting against the SteamOS configurtion and purpose.
#28
nox 24 set 2022, ore 7:04 
Messaggio originale di MRK0017:
Really curious about this. Plasma has a lot of features and can be riced and what have you, but it's highly unstable in my experience, and on the deck, it's just as bad, on top of being some older version compared to what you can get if you install KDE Neon or Manjaro. On top of that, it's proably the worst one for touch devices, it's even worse than Windows by far.
I've used it for a while then I moved to GNOME and eventually settled for Cinnamon on my main desktop, but for the deck, i think GNOME would have been just perfect. So, why do you think they went for Plasma out of all DEs? Have they ever explained the reasoning behind sticking with Plasma for the deck?

Maybe it's just me, but Plasma really isn't for me, it's so bloated, unstable and annoying to use. On top of that, due to the immutable filesystem on Deck even trying to change the DE is just not worth it.
Thank you, it is the exact current DE state description I'm looked for.
Unfortunately for me SD card is not an option, I'm using Steam Deck as my primary and only working station, so IOPS is critical for me.
So I wonder if my usecase is something that I may share with Valve. I think Steam Deck is not interested to be PC replacement, but it runs great and obviously I spent more time gaming after my work because there is no need to switch to another device.
#29
Prezidentas 24 set 2022, ore 7:23 
Messaggio originale di nox:
Messaggio originale di MRK0017:
Really curious about this. Plasma has a lot of features and can be riced and what have you, but it's highly unstable in my experience, and on the deck, it's just as bad, on top of being some older version compared to what you can get if you install KDE Neon or Manjaro. On top of that, it's proably the worst one for touch devices, it's even worse than Windows by far.
I've used it for a while then I moved to GNOME and eventually settled for Cinnamon on my main desktop, but for the deck, i think GNOME would have been just perfect. So, why do you think they went for Plasma out of all DEs? Have they ever explained the reasoning behind sticking with Plasma for the deck?

Maybe it's just me, but Plasma really isn't for me, it's so bloated, unstable and annoying to use. On top of that, due to the immutable filesystem on Deck even trying to change the DE is just not worth it.
Thank you, it is the exact current DE state description I'm looked for.
Unfortunately for me SD card is not an option, I'm using Steam Deck as my primary and only working station, so IOPS is critical for me.
So I wonder if my usecase is something that I may share with Valve. I think Steam Deck is not interested to be PC replacement, but it runs great and obviously I spent more time gaming after my work because there is no need to switch to another device.
The Steam deck is a great desktop replacement. SteamOS, however, is not. And it will never be.
#30
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Steam Deck > Discussioni generali > Dettagli della discussione
Data di pubblicazione: 28 ago 2022, ore 3:20
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