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MRK0017 Aug 28, 2022 @ 3:20am
Why did they choose KDE Plasma as a Desktop Environment for SteamOS?
Really curious about this. Plasma has a lot of features and can be riced and what have you, but it's highly unstable in my experience, and on the deck, it's just as bad, on top of being some older version compared to what you can get if you install KDE Neon or Manjaro. On top of that, it's proably the worst one for touch devices, it's even worse than Windows by far.
I've used it for a while then I moved to GNOME and eventually settled for Cinnamon on my main desktop, but for the deck, i think GNOME would have been just perfect. So, why do you think they went for Plasma out of all DEs? Have they ever explained the reasoning behind sticking with Plasma for the deck?

Maybe it's just me, but Plasma really isn't for me, it's so bloated, unstable and annoying to use. On top of that, due to the immutable filesystem on Deck even trying to change the DE is just not worth it.
Last edited by MRK0017; Aug 28, 2022 @ 3:21am
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Originally posted by GUNG-HO CHANG:
Tl;dr:

  • The issues you talk about has nothing to do with KDE Plasma and everything do to with SteamOS. To be fair, they are putting effort into improving it although they've done some weird things that has caused problems. Overall, we should be applauding what Valve is doing.

  • Whatever might give you the impression of KDE Plasma being bloated and unstable is caused by something else and for some reason KDE Plasma is being blamed. KDE Plasma is generally considered very stable and reliable.

  • Applications that are included by default is a choice by Valve. They are optional. And they are not a part of the DE even though they are housed by the KDE umbrella (it just means KDE does A LOT of stuff).

  • Thus, the choice of DE is irrelevant. Opting for a different DE would likely have made the OS bigger, more unstable, more resource hungry and taken more time to develop (which would likely either delay or negatively impact the launch).

  • It has a lot to do with how flexible and broadly polished KDE Plasma is. It's both modern and consistently good at basically everything. Other DEs might excel at some things but they also have parts where they kind of suck and have limits which KDE Plasma does not have. The latter part is what makes KDE Plasma a no-brainer for the Steam Deck.



Bonus tl;dr:
  • On a desktop computer without the need for custom menus and functionality the choice of DE would be easier. Personally, I'd still choose KDE Plasma (it's what I see in front of me right now) but for general PC use the other DE's disadvantages matter less and it comes more down to your UX experience and hunger for customisation.


Original post for the sake of sakeness:
When you say it's unstable, bloated and you have problems that has more to do with Steam OS than KDE Plasma. Not to bash on Deck software developers, but they've done some strange things to it and I'm sure it'll get a lot better as they gain experience and feedback. Steam OS needs more work, is all.

Since this thread was made a lot of stuff has improved a lot on the Deck. Also, it's not bloated and people need to look up what the word means. :P You would likely have a worse experience if they went with Gnome or anything else as it would be harder to customise and develop for. The Gnome developers are also more set in their ways about how it should work and it's not really made to be customised. It would also be limited in terms of other aspects of the system because Gnome is sort of a more stubborn "this is how we like it" approach.

Also, what you might think is because of KDE Plasma is very likely individual applications or system customisation made by Valve or any other part of the system. It's easy to get the impression that it's the DE having problems because that's the GUI (almost) always visible to the user. But there can be a million things breaking everything else.

Daily KDE Plasma users could tell you this is not the consensus. Steam OS has broken a fair share of things, but Valve does actually put a lot of effort into making it great. Give them time, be patient and be excited about it will continuously improve. Whatever you might think is unstable or boated about KDE Plasma is an impression caused by other things. Valve could also make the system a lot more minimal. My guess is that they don't have time to tackle every corner and also wanted there to be default applications to whatever you'd find in Windows. Optional apps are not the DE and is a choice made by Valve.

Both being based on Arch and KDE Plasma is the best choice they could make and despite some bumps along the way Steam OS is actually pretty cool.


KDE Plasma was the right decision and here's why:

  • Highly customisable (without being prone to breakage):
    To achieve this it needs to be structured so that the UI and UX are changed through values that won't mess up other aspects of the software. When you think of it, the default theme is just collection of settings and designs.

    What benefit does this have for the Steam Deck? It makes it easy for the developers to tailor the UI to the Deck and make changes to virtually every aspect of it without having to rewrite the entire DE. They can do so and expect it to work well without becoming a developer nightmare.

  • Resource-efficient:
    It is resource-efficient and can be configured to be lighter or heavier depending on eye-candy and whatever fancy stuff you wanna throw at it.

    While it's efficient it's also fairly lightweight. This depends on the configuration of course. For some reason a lot of people consider default applications as a part of the DE when in reality they're just applications that happen to be consistent with the DE. It has more to do with KDE's effort to make a broad and consistent experience than a question about resource-efficiency or bloat.

  • Consistent UX and UI:
    This is one of their core philosophies. It means that buttons, designs and behaviours should be consistent across applications and menus.

  • Complete and feature-rich experience:
    They have a solid and very broad application suite that is actually pretty good. Many of the applications are widely favored. If you prefer certain non-KDE applications you can just install those.

    This is not the same as bloat. Bloat is when you waste resources by adding affiliate applications with duplicate functionality and otherwise are way bigger or slower than it needs be. You can run a minimal KDE Plasma configuration if you want.

    The wide range of K-apps is one of the contributing factors to the consistent experience of KDE Plasma and they are optional. They are not really to be defined as a DE.

  • Stability:
    KDE Plasma provides a stable system and the focus on consistency is probably part of the reason. There will always be installations or situations where you'll find faults in any software but those who use KDE Plasma every day would tell you it's a very solid experience.

    They have also put a lot of effort into squashing as many bugs as possible and this fall the made great progress. This is something they have and will continue to focus a lot on.

  • Standardised platforms, feature-support and overall package:
    KDE Plasma follows standardised frameworks and is friendly when it comes to GUI integration and development. It has great support for recent technology standards and features you'd expect. It does really well when you count up all the different aspects of what a DE should support to satisfy a wide range of users. While it might not excel at everything it's good at virtually everything. There's no major things limiting it in ways other DEs are limiting. So while other DEs have some aspects where they excel, they have some bigger disadvantages and doesn't offer the kind of complete and polished experience like KDE Plasma.

  • They have similar goals and already have one of the best support for new standards:
    They have put a lot of effort into helping Valve with development for the Steam Deck and their values and goals align in many ways.

  • Some more stuff that I didn't write because I'll soon be late for an appointment and this ♥♥♥♥ is already long enough.



Originally posted by MRK0017:
Exactly, that's why I use Cinnamon on my desktop, it's basically XP on steroids. But maybe there's a reason why they picked something as bloated and convoluted as Plasma out of all the nice DEs available.
It doesn't sound like you have used KDE Plasma in a while. You should try it with an open mind and I'm sure you'd like it.

It is definitely not bloated and convoluted. And it's definitely not XP on steroids, not technically nor in terms of design. If you want it to look more like something else, you have the choice to change the look.

Bloat is not the same as providing a broad suite of programs, which are optional. KDE Plasma have a philosophy to extend the experience to include the expected essentials. It part of what makes KDE Plasma good as a whole. Them making a list of included applications to accomodate new users is a good thing that shouldn't be held against them. If they were not optional, sure. But they are. It's Valve's choice to include whatever application they included. Applications are not the DE.

They actually have put a lot of effort into making it use few resources and it's very straight forward. Whether you come from Unix-based or Windows-based OSs it's pretty easy to use and can be as advanced and minimal as you like. A default configuration should not be scary or difficult, especially not in a product that is offered to the general public. At the same time it will cater to any enthusiast or Linux nerd as it's open source and highly customisable. The latter people are who is most able to change what they don't like about the system. KDE Plasma cater to both without making it hard for new-comers.

So try KDE Plasma again if you're feeling open-minded, or don't. Either way, what you say isn't accurate and fair. :)
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Showing 1-15 of 37 comments
Chuck Norris Aug 28, 2022 @ 3:30am 
Windows XP >>>>>>>>
#1
MRK0017 Aug 28, 2022 @ 3:35am 
Originally posted by Charlie Sheen:
Windows XP >>>>>>>>
Exactly, that's why I use Cinnamon on my desktop, it's basically XP on steroids. But maybe there's a reason why they picked something as bloated and convoluted as Plasma out of all the nice DEs available.
#2
derram Aug 28, 2022 @ 3:41am 
I use rwfus and installed XFCE. https://github.com/ValShaped/rwfus

Bit of a pain since you have to set up everything manually, but at least I don't have to use KDE anymore.
#3
Prezidentas Aug 28, 2022 @ 4:02am 
because GNOME is run by a dictator and all other DEs are crap. Also KDE is closer to Windows.
#4
Taktloss Aug 28, 2022 @ 4:04am 
The real question is why not ?
People do have different preferences by the way
#5
Reverse Module Aug 28, 2022 @ 4:08am 
Cause Plasma is the best DE lol. What do you mean?
#6
MJ711 Aug 28, 2022 @ 4:22am 
I cannot agree with anything you said about KDE Plasma. I would even say that you are very wrong in your first paragraph.
There is no such thing as "the best DE". Some features just work better in one DE than others.
Touch functionalities work mostly the same on all DEs, the only difference is how much time and effort a dev want to put to optimize it for that distro and we can see that it works just fine on Deck.
What is so highly unstable about KDE Plasma in your opinion? And what is so bad with KDE Plasma on Deck? You did not give any concrete examples which could be used to improve the problems that you have.
Why do you think that an older version of DE is bad? Generally it does not matter which version of DE is used in a closed enviroment like Steam Deck because it is used and developed for only that purpose.
What is so "bloated" about it on Deck?
What is so "annoying" about it on Deck?
What is so "convoluted" about it on Deck?
Many examples please.
Majority of opinions about DEs are based on own subjective views and experience and in most cases do not represent the truth.

Why don't you compare KDE Plasma and GNOME directly at practical level and report to us why GNOME is so better on Deck?
What are the features that work so much better with GNOME on Steam Deck to even consider switching?

You need to remember that from time to time, Deck devs will read some topics here. That could lead to some changes in future if they deem it necessary but without any more info about the topic than "I do not like it, so it is bad" nothing would change.
Last edited by MJ711; Aug 28, 2022 @ 4:23am
#7
Chuck Norris Aug 28, 2022 @ 5:19am 
Originally posted by MRK0017:
Originally posted by Charlie Sheen:
Windows XP >>>>>>>>
Exactly, that's why I use Cinnamon on my desktop, it's basically XP on steroids. But maybe there's a reason why they picked something as bloated and convoluted as Plasma out of all the nice DEs available.

My man 👍👍
#8
MRK0017 Aug 28, 2022 @ 5:46am 
Originally posted by MJ711:
I cannot agree with anything you said about KDE Plasma. I would even say that you are very wrong in your first paragraph.
There is no such thing as "the best DE". Some features just work better in one DE than others.
Touch functionalities work mostly the same on all DEs, the only difference is how much time and effort a dev want to put to optimize it for that distro and we can see that it works just fine on Deck.
What is so highly unstable about KDE Plasma in your opinion? And what is so bad with KDE Plasma on Deck? You did not give any concrete examples which could be used to improve the problems that you have.
Why do you think that an older version of DE is bad? Generally it does not matter which version of DE is used in a closed enviroment like Steam Deck because it is used and developed for only that purpose.
What is so "bloated" about it on Deck?
What is so "annoying" about it on Deck?
What is so "convoluted" about it on Deck?
Many examples please.
Majority of opinions about DEs are based on own subjective views and experience and in most cases do not represent the truth.

Why don't you compare KDE Plasma and GNOME directly at practical level and report to us why GNOME is so better on Deck?
What are the features that work so much better with GNOME on Steam Deck to even consider switching?

You need to remember that from time to time, Deck devs will read some topics here. That could lead to some changes in future if they deem it necessary but without any more info about the topic than "I do not like it, so it is bad" nothing would change.

I don't hate Plasma, I just dislike it after having used it for many years (mostly on KDE Neon). It has too many settings, menus everywhere, it's not touch friendly. I've had my deck for two days and I already managed to get Dolphin to crash at least a couple of times, all I was doing was transferring files from my Windows drives connected via smb and one usb drive. When I use Plasma I always have the feeling of instability, like it's prone to crash at any moment. Maybe it's just me. Anyway, when using the deck in handheld mode (without mouse & keyboard & monitor). I think GNOME would have been better suited thanks to its bigger icons, and touch friendly interface. Also, the KDE on-screen keyboard is just disgusting, nearly unusable due to missed inputs, )but maybe I'm doing something wrong here, haven't used it enough yet).

Anyway, my main point is that it's too much for a small gaming handheld like this. Too many settings, too many menus, small icons. It's undeniable that the Deck is not only for huge nerds like myself (I also work in IT as a Windows sysadming and used Linux for years now), but also for "gamers" who may be coming from the Switch, or even from Mobile. Just compare the settings menu for Plasma to the settings menu on Switch, the one on Plasma is amazing for people like me who love to tinker and mess around, but a Switch owner might just get a heart attack. That is why I think GNOME would have been more suited, the fact I dislike Plasma or that I somehow manage to get it to glitch out no matter what is secondary. As someone who installed linux to many normie friends and family members, almost everyone loved GNOME and Mint.

TL;DR Plasma is too much for the average joe who is not a huge nerd and tinkerer, and to me it feels like it's always a bit unstable and prone to crashing, especially the file manager Dolphin. For a small touch device like the Deck, I think GNOME would have been better suited.
Last edited by MRK0017; Aug 28, 2022 @ 5:49am
#9
tfk Aug 28, 2022 @ 6:43am 
I run plasma on every Linux device. I love this DE.
#10
Man's Best Friend Aug 28, 2022 @ 7:05am 
End of the day, no matter what DE they picked, someone would be annoyed by it.
#11
tfk Aug 28, 2022 @ 7:12am 
Originally posted by HTTP Error 418: I'm a teapot:
End of the day, no matter what DE they picked, someone would be annoyed by it.

Yup. 😁
#12
Ruby Maelstrom Aug 28, 2022 @ 7:25am 
Plasma works great for me on the deck. It's not my favorite DE as I agree it's heavier than it needs to be, but it's very Windows-like, and that's what they need installed on a device that's aimed at a mainstream audience who will only ever see Desktop Mode when they accidentally click on it instead of Shutdown and will need to be able to figure out how to get back into game mode.

Also, regarding instability...I've been using the deck as my primary PC for over a month now and it's been rock solid on Plasma so far. Now, when they finally get around to migrating desktop mode from X to Wayland...we'll see how long that lasts.
#13
bbkr Aug 28, 2022 @ 7:42am 
I think KDE was chosen due to:
* Highly customizable SDDM stack. It is really clever how they solved session management and game/desktop mode switching.
* Easier supplementary application/widgets development. QT simply crushes GTK in my opinion. I wrote desktop apps in both and QT is better designed from developers perspective.
#14
derram Aug 28, 2022 @ 8:40am 
They "solved" session management by completely nuking it.

Originally posted by bbkr:
I think KDE was chosen due to:
* Highly customizable SDDM stack. It is really clever how they solved session management and game/desktop mode switching.
* Easier supplementary application/widgets development. QT simply crushes GTK in my opinion. I wrote desktop apps in both and QT is better designed from developers perspective.
#15
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Steam Deck > General Discussions > Topic Details
Date Posted: Aug 28, 2022 @ 3:20am
Posts: 37

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