I need help, how do you play Dragon Lords?

[Hank]

A friend asked me how I would build around a Dragon Lord and my hundreds of hours of gameplay ass just "shurgged". It made me realize I never gave them a try, and over the last few hours I've been restarting game after game trying to get to grips with these guys.

How I feel:
1. They're weak.
I'm exaggerating, but I don't feel by much while the Dragon Lord can beat two or three units solo throwing him into a camp of 5+ units early game is insta death. Even the 80% Damage Reduction Materium Dragon will be brought low pretty quickly after one if not two camp battles per turn. Since they also are strong enough to push out but not go on a death march they constantly out run the city expansion needed to heal them.

2. They're early eco is stifling.
At first I thought -30 gold upkeep isn't that bad heck end game I'm sitting on a couple hundred if not thousands. Then on turn 13 I don't have enough eco to build my second army and build a Masonic Hall. I don't have the money to buy of some events having to eat their punishments or lose imperium when I don't have my triple starting city.

3. Economically Weaker than Champion Offensively weaker than Wizard
After failing or feeling like I failed I would browse forum discussion after forum discussion to see what I did wrong, and came across a discussion where essentially the argument boiled down to "Champion weaker than Dragon Lord in every way". I find this hard to believe. Sure a non-optimized Champion I against an optimized Dragon Lord, but a High + Imperial + Champion + 1 Negative Trait vs Dragon? That's up to 20 Production, 20 Gold, 20 Food, Tier 2 Stability TURN 1 not to mention by turn 8 second city double dipping those bonuses.

Against Wizard... look nothing is beating the FLORIDA man summoner of three primal alligators flanking your unit dealing +25% damage up to +75% on a single hit. Dragon Lord can kill 1 Entwined Thrall a turn Wizard kills 3 a turn and have three free meat bags to soak damage at the cost of 27 mana.

4. The Early game.
Ultimately the final test was against one of my friends who minmaxes heavily. After hours of testing I ended believing the materium and nature dragons being the best, and my god the Dragon Lord does not hold a candle against the turn 20-25 Bum Rush. Sure the Dragon can kill a good chunk, but my friends army doesn't need his champion to be alive to win the war. 35 turn game after 35 turn game he would arrive at my capital by turn 18-20 with 3 full stack armies against my 3 full stack, and my army just could not put up the fight. The Dragon slow build up eco eats just a few turns here a few turns there where my more powerful units, enchantments and spells are just not ready in time.

So I need help any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Hank:

How I feel:
1. They're weak.

Hell no, Dragon Lords are by far the most powerful units in the early game. They're the only leader type (currently) who can solo all of the early marauder camps, thus allowing them to outpace Champions and Wizard Kings in terms of levels.

Dragon Lords also get the benefit of racial form traits, even though they're not the same race. This is especially powerful with Materium Dragons, as if you take the bonus to Physical and Magical Defense traits, you can get just shy of 80% damage reduction by leveling up your Defense + Resistance + Dragon Scales abilities. Only further enhancing it when you start applying spell buffs on top of that.

Dragon Lords also get bonuses for every unequipped item they have in their arsenal, which counts as part of their horde. So if you took culture traits that allow you to rapidly acquire treasures from clearing out infestations or dungeons, this can have huge pay offs.


Dragon Lords also get access to a Devour type ability, which not only has the benefit of healing them, but also instantly removes the targeted enemy from the battle if the attack successfully hits them. In other words, it's a 1 hit kill that heals the user.

((Technically, the enemy doesn't immediately die, and they can be rescued if you kill the Dragon Lord before they finish digesting them. But with their extremely high defense and HP values, this isn't likely to happen))

[Hank]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Hank:

How I feel:
1. They're weak.

Hell no, Dragon Lords are by far the most powerful units in the early game. They're the only leader type (currently) who can solo all of the early marauder camps, thus allowing them to outpace Champions and Wizard Kings in terms of levels.

Dragon Lords also get the benefit of racial form traits, even though they're not the same race. This is especially powerful with Materium Dragons, as if you take the bonus to Physical and Magical Defense traits, you can get just shy of 80% damage reduction by leveling up your Defense + Resistance + Dragon Scales abilities. Only further enhancing it when you start applying spell buffs on top of that.

Okay just making sure you read my comment fully right?! Cause that 80% damage reduction advice is literally what I used. OR did you just see the they weak and started your comment from there.

The Issue is for how much they are costing it's equivalent to an entire stack of units early game what would you rather have 12 units attacking a camp or 5 + 1 Dragon Lord on turn 7? Additionally yes i know about the hoard mechanic did you also know by turn 20 that hoard is barely paying off the dragon alone, and the 3 stack tier 2-1 Triple Hero Bum Rush is coming your way? Where's your dragon at that point still clearing camps or rushing home not paying for himself to defend base? Because that's my issue when you're expecting a full on player vs player 3 stack on 3 stack war on turn 20 you don't have time to build up that hoard. My Issue isn't the turn 40 war with two AIs it's the turn 20 war with a human player who can afford to split his army and attack where my dragon ain't. And at turn 20 that dragon isn't looking at a 6 stack like a hungry meal it's thinking um... is that 5 Bronze Golems about to shish kabob me!?

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Hank:

Okay just making sure you read my comment fully right?! Cause that 80% damage reduction advice is literally what I used. OR did you just see the they weak and started your comment from there.

I read the full thing after I posted. ;-)

I don't know how well or poorly Dragon Lords do in multiplayer, because in the entire time since this game came out, I have only been able to play a grand total of 2 MP games, which were both 1v1, and were both before the first DLC was released. Maybe they're more effective against the AI, since the AI is a drooling imbecile at times?

If you're having trouble with the enemy mobbing you, I would suggest using the Tail Swipe skill, as it pushes enemies away from you in order to provide a bit more breathing room. Also, the general consensus that I see around the forums is that COMET is the objectively best option for upgrading your breath weapon.

Cone needs to be fired at almost point blank range to hit anything, and Line can only target things directly in front of you. Comet has the best range, and hits the enemy with an AoE.

It may also be worth picking up the Tome of Winds (T2 Materium), as this grants you access to the Avenging Winds skill for your heroes that has a chance to push enemies away after they hit you with melee.

[Hank]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

I read the full thing after I posted. ;-)

Thanks appreciated. I'm pretty sure on a similar post months ago you commented that 80% reduction which gave me alot of help when starting to learn Dragon Lord.

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

I don't know how well or poorly Dragon Lords do in multiplayer, . . . Maybe they're more effective against the AI, since the AI is a drooling imbecile at times?

Alot of my friends have been getting into the game recently, and as the resident Min Maxer along side one other friend I kind of put on alot of stress when friends ask me for help. Especially when I don't know the answer considering the other builds I provided allow them to do crazy stuff super early.

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

If you're having trouble with the enemy mobbing you, I would suggest using the Tail Swipe skill, as it pushes enemies away from you in order to provide a bit more breathing room. Also, the general consensus that I see around the forums is that COMET is the objectively best option for upgrading your breath weapon.

Good to know I've been going cone breath, but I'll give comet a try much appreciated.

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

It may also be worth picking up the Tome of Winds (T2 Materium), as this grants you access to the Avenging Winds skill for your heroes that has a chance to push enemies away after they hit you with melee.

Unfortunately games against my min maxing friend J have shown that Tier 2 for Dragon Lord is almost a pipe dream due to a stunted economy when also needing to prepare for a 3 Stack turn 20 battle, but I'll see what I can do.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Hank:

Unfortunately games against my min maxing friend J have shown that Tier 2 for Dragon Lord is almost a pipe dream due to a stunted economy when also needing to prepare for a 3 Stack turn 20 battle, but I'll see what I can do.

If it's any consolation, they eventually added Talons to the game, which are a weapon set exclusive to Dragon Lords. You can even forge your own, if you decide that your dragon needs some extra muscle power.

[GrandMajora]

Lastly, I would also suggest trying to get your hand on a Wind Barrier ring. Based on my personal experience with the game, I found that Wind Barrier is fairly easy to gain access to in the forging options.

Wind Barrier gives you a 60% evasion chance against Physical and Magical ranged attacks. Which as you can obviously tell, pairs up extremely well with that 80% damage reduction build.

With both of them together, this renders ranged attacks almost completely useless, as they'll miss you 60% of the time, and even if they do manage to hit, their damage will be almost totally negated.

-----------------

In earlier versions of the game, you could combine Wind Shield and Wind Barrier onto the same item for a 90% evasion chance, but this was later patched out.

[Pantagruel]

There's no point to soloing a camp, you don't get any more xp than if you went in there with a group of 4. The general point of dragon lords is that in the early game they're a lot more powerful and more mobile than other leader types, though they don't scale particularly well into the late game.

[Hank]

Originally posted by Pantagruel:

There's no point to soloing a camp, you don't get any more xp than if you went in there with a group of 4. The general point of dragon lords is that in the early game they're a lot more powerful and more mobile than other leader types, though they don't scale particularly well into the late game.

It's not the xp that's the issue. Think of it this way.
A Dragon cost 30 Upkeep
A Stack of Tier 1 Army with some basic upkeep reduction cost about 24-32

Now a Champion Empire could send that stack clearing a different direction. As the good old adage of Strategy game goes the best time to eco is when you're attacking.

A Dragon Lord can only really clear one direction with it's early stunted economy and heavy dependence on the Dragon Lord being in fights as the army is horribly built and buffed due to traits being picked favoring the dragon.

A Champion army can split 1.5 go this way 1.5 go that way, and clear with minor casualties, but when the armies start heading to war the Dragonlord essentially clears half the camps compared to the champion. So as your secondary city grows during the war it's going to hit camps you didn't clear cause you didn't have the time. Thus as the war goes on you'll eventually lose economically to the champion who already cleared his camps thus gaining a bigger eco advantage.

Also being more mobile is only useful if you can solo in the first place which Dragon Lords can't. Your Dragonlord is as slow as the slowest unit it needs to win camps. If they could I wouldn't be in this pickle, as then it's easy army goes left dragon goes right clears camps plops cities return for the war.

[Hank]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Lastly, I would also suggest trying to get your hand on a Wind Barrier ring. Based on my personal experience with the game, I found that Wind Barrier is fairly easy to gain access to in the forging options.

Thanks for the advice I've manage to drag the latest game we were in to a draw, but I got some real luck prospecting with a Wind Barrier ring, and gaining enough to get the talons. I was able to beat his army back in this game with my Materium decked out Dragon and some Bronze Golems, but I took far too many casualties to push for kill.

Still Marked improvement much appreciated for the advice.

[Goblin]

The dragons are great at constantly doing aoe damage. Once you get to lvl 5 you can do an aoe attack with them every round. At lvl 5 you can take quickened breath then just alternate between doing a breath attack then a tail bash.

I like taking the arcane focus form trait to increase the damage of the breath attacks and dipping into the mage skill tree to further increase the damage of breath attacks.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Pantagruel:

There's no point to soloing a camp, you don't get any more xp than if you went in there with a group of 4. The general point of dragon lords is that in the early game they're a lot more powerful and more mobile than other leader types, though they don't scale particularly well into the late game.

That's not exactly true.

When rewarding you with EXP, the game gives a bonus to whichever unit dealt the killing blow to the enemy. The more enemies you kill, the more EXP you get.

Since Dragon Lords are powerful enough to solo camps, this means they get ALL the bonus EXP for doing so, and can therefor level up much faster than a Champion or Wizard King who has to share the bonus with their armies.

[OakenWall]

I find the gold cost and slower movement of the dragon to be a bit annoying, its more relaxed to play mage or champion.

[Aranea]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Pantagruel:

There's no point to soloing a camp, you don't get any more xp than if you went in there with a group of 4. The general point of dragon lords is that in the early game they're a lot more powerful and more mobile than other leader types, though they don't scale particularly well into the late game.

That's not exactly true.

When rewarding you with EXP, the game gives a bonus to whichever unit dealt the killing blow to the enemy. The more enemies you kill, the more EXP you get.

Since Dragon Lords are powerful enough to solo camps, this means they get ALL the bonus EXP for doing so, and can therefor level up much faster than a Champion or Wizard King who has to share the bonus with their armies.

when dragon lords got released that was the case. They quickly nerfed xp you get for soloing camps and that is not really a good strategy anymore.

[Regicida O Comedor de Irmãs]

Its been awhile since i played the game with the latest updates what would be a good build for the Dragonlords? Any tips for the politics and tomes ? And whats the current best element choice materium and nature ?

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Regicida O Comedor de Irmãs:

Its been awhile since i played the game with the latest updates what would be a good build for the Dragonlords? Any tips for the politics and tomes ? And whats the current best element choice materium and nature ?

Nature got nerfed after they made the Aura stop affecting the Dragon Lords as well. Now it only applies to their armies, so you don't get regeneration on your dragon.

In terms of defense, the Materium Dragon with both the Resistance and Defense enhancing racial traits is by far the tankiest option you can go with. Since you should have a trait point left over, I would also suggest picking up Hardy for some extra HP.

Since Materium doesn't really have an elemental type associated with its damage, the Dragon Scales ability replaces it with extra defense that the other Dragon Lords don't get access to. When combined with Dragon Scales, Defense and Resistance skills, the Materium Dragon Lord can increase their defense to nearly 80% reduction, if not more.

Throw a Wind Barrier ring on top of that and laugh at the enemy's pitiful attempts to shoot you to death.

You can also go with Industrious Culture to further bolster your defense when you get hit, and as a Materium dragon, your attacks will inflict BLEED on your victims.