Buff the Magic Dragon (Lords)

[Kerry]

So, I just want to preface this by saying that I bought Age of Wonders 4 exclusively for the Dragon Dawn DLC, and the ability to create Dragon Lords, as dragons are my favorite mythical creatures.

I was severely disappointed, as despite what it says in the lore, Dragon Lords feel pathetic in terms of damage resistance. They are supposed to be among the oldest, wisest and most powerful of the creatures of the various realms, And one of the many creators of all, even the various story realms.

Logically, this means that they would already be significantly tougher and more armored than your average Mortal Champion or Wizard King.

They definitely do not feel this way. In fact, they feel weaker than a properly-equipped vanilla Godir, whether Wizard King or Mortal Champion. And they've always felt this way, both before and after the Tiger Update. (In fact, they feel significantly worse after the Tiger Update.)

Here is my suggestion of a couple of potential solutions to fix this problem:

I propose that starting from Level 1, all Dragon Lords get an immediate 50% to 60% buff to their Evasion, as well as a straight 50% to 60% increase in their damage resistance from all sources, whether direct damage or Damage over Time, physical damage, elemental damage, ranged damage, melee damage, etcetera. This would increase passively over time as the Dragon Lord increases in experience, to something like 90 to 95% at maximum rank.

IMHO this wouldn't be too crazy of an initial buff as it doesn't make the Dragon Lord invincible and able to solo multiple entire armies simultaneously, right from the get-go, which would be very bad. All it would do is make the Dragon Lord feel more survivable. They'd be able to take more hits, yet you'd still be able to defeat them through swarm tactics, and it'd be a proper epic battle to defeat one.

It would also feel more lore-accurate as the slow build-up towards 95% evasion and damage resistance makes it feel like your Sovereign is just waking up from a multi-millennia-long nap. They'd be groggy, and therefore get hit more due to slow reaction times until they are able to shake their gigantic sleepy heads and fully wake up.

Another way to do this would be to give Dragon Lords the ability to find, forge and wear special dragon armor, and to reforge common hero armor into dragon armor with the same properties as the original once the Item Forge in the Wizard Tower is online.

To balance it out, making armor to fit a Dragon Lord would take longer turn-wise than forging other items,

Speaking of forging, I would also like to request that Dragon Lords get the additional Item Forge bonuses that Giants are getting, as these bonuses would synergize well with the Hoard mechanic. Not only that, but as it stands now the Dragon Lords get a lot of their slots blocked but gain little to nothing in return, so the few slots they do have, should do more for them.

Now, I get that balancing this may be an issue in multiplayer, and therefore I propose that these fixes only apply to story mode, single player skirmish, and co-op battles versus the AI.

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EDIT: I'm gonna be honest with you here as well, folks. (Bear with me, this is gonna get confusing.)

When I bought the DLC, I wasn't expecting these dragon lords to be akin to normal, common dragons. I was expecting what I call dragods. Those massive beasts the size of mountains and as powerful as a volcano, like Ancalagon from Lord of the Rings or Tiamat from DnD.

That's what they were built up to be thanks to the trailer video and the in-game lore. Dragon Lords are Dragon Gods. Dragon Godir.

What I got instead left me flabbergasted and saying, "I bought the game and the DLC, spent damn near seventy dollars, for THIS?! NOT WORTH IT!"

I was expecting them to be able to shrug off arrows and minor magic spells like they'd just been tickled. (And I do mean shrug, not merely reduced damage.) The only thing that would be a real threat to them would be cavalry and polearms, and even they would have a tough time getting through their thick scales. Not an impossible time, but a tough time.

I was disappointed. Extremely disappointed.

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Developers, if you're reading this, all I ask is that you give this feedback some serious thought and actually address them. Don't be rude and brush me off like lint off your shirt.

[Kerry]

The silence is deafening.

[MEATSHED]

Publicado originalmente por Kerry:

Of COURSE I expect more from dragons than their humanoid counterparts, who wouldn't?! They're supposed to be stronger in every way! I expect the same thing from giants and other... well... GIANT creatures!

I was more pointing out that dragons felt weaker than others because you expected more from them, they have a lot of upsides especially earlier on.

Look, all I ask is that Dragon Lords get a way to mitigate some of their disadvantages in the early game.

The scales of a Dragon Lord are supposed to be as strong as steel, that was the whole point of not giving them armor, was it not?

Truth is, they actually feel more like wet tissue paper at that low level. They feel like they NEED armor just to survive.

That's why I thought a 50% damage reduction was reasonable in the early game, because 50% stronger wet tissue paper is still wet tissue paper, just considerably less likely to break.

They are, again more durable than other leaders in most situations early on, if your dragon lord got killed in the early game most of the time a equivalent leader of another type would have died and they would have done it sooner. Other heroes need solid equipment to keep up with dragon lords in a straight fight. Also 50% damage reduction is twice as strong because it halves the damage they take.

[Kerry]

Publicado originalmente por MEATSHED:

Publicado originalmente por Kerry:

Of COURSE I expect more from dragons than their humanoid counterparts, who wouldn't?! They're supposed to be stronger in every way! I expect the same thing from giants and other... well... GIANT creatures!

I was more pointing out that dragons felt weaker than others because you expected more from them, they have a lot of upsides especially earlier on.
Look, all I ask is that Dragon Lords get a way to mitigate some of their disadvantages in the early game.

The scales of a Dragon Lord are supposed to be as strong as steel, that was the whole point of not giving them armor, was it not?

Truth is, they actually feel more like wet tissue paper at that low level. They feel like they NEED armor just to survive.

That's why I thought a 50% damage reduction was reasonable in the early game, because 50% stronger wet tissue paper is still wet tissue paper, just considerably less likely to break.

They are, again more durable than other leaders in most situations early one, if your dragon lord got killed in the early game most of the time a equivalent leader of another type would have died and they would have done it sooner. Other heroes need solid equipment to keep up with dragon lords in a straight fight. Also 50% damage reduction is twice as strong because it halves the damage they take.

Again, it doesn't quite feel that way to me. Even if 50% is too much, even something like 10% would be better. SOMETHING to make them feel less like a human and more like a dragon should be.

Remember too that these Dragon Lords aren't hatchlings, they're fully-grown and fairly ancient. They should therefore have tougher scales than a hatchling, and significantly more armor (aka damage reduction) than an equivalently-leveled human.

[MEATSHED]

Publicado originalmente por Kerry:

Publicado originalmente por MEATSHED:

They are, again more durable than other leaders in most situations early one, if your dragon lord got killed in the early game most of the time a equivalent leader of another type would have died and they would have done it sooner. Other heroes need solid equipment to keep up with dragon lords in a straight fight. Also 50% damage reduction is twice as strong because it halves the damage they take.

Again, it doesn't quite feel that way to me. Even if 50% is too much, even something like 10% would be better. SOMETHING to make them feel less like a human and more like a dragon should be.

Remember too that these Dragon Lords aren't hatchlings, they're fully-grown and fairly ancient. They should therefore have tougher scales than a hatchling, and significantly more armor (aka damage reduction) than an equivalently-leveled human.

Wizard kings are also ancient and they walk in at level 1 without any particular magical knowledge compared to others. This isn't some sort of weird dragon hate thing, the game is built around getting stronger in various ways and you could argue that leaders in general should be stronger at the start if you want them to be lore accurate, but that would take quite a bit from the game's flow due to everyone just rapidly going though the early combats.

[Kerry]

Publicado originalmente por MEATSHED:

Publicado originalmente por Kerry:

Again, it doesn't quite feel that way to me. Even if 50% is too much, even something like 10% would be better. SOMETHING to make them feel less like a human and more like a dragon should be.

Remember too that these Dragon Lords aren't hatchlings, they're fully-grown and fairly ancient. They should therefore have tougher scales than a hatchling, and significantly more armor (aka damage reduction) than an equivalently-leveled human.

Wizard kings are also ancient and they walk in at level 1 without any particular magical knowledge compared to others. This isn't some sort of weird dragon hate thing, the game is built around getting stronger in various ways and you could argue that leaders in general should be stronger at the start if you want them to be lore accurate, but that would take quite a bit from the game's flow due to everyone just rapidly going though the early combats.

The Wizard Kings are undeniably still human though, with all the weaknesses of a human. Dragon scales should naturally be tougher than human skin, and skin in general.

The initial increase in skin toughness for Dragon Lords wouldn't be from knowledge or experience like the Wizard Kings, but from simple age.

I'd say just being a Dragon Lord should grant you the equivalent protection of a sovereign wearing a full set of Tier 1 armor, and that's before you add on the learned skills which increase it even further.

[MEATSHED]

They do I'm pretty sure. +1 defence and resistance with +20 HP is what you can get with a full set of forged tier 1 equipment in your body, legs and head with each item having 2 infusions points.

[Kerry]

Publicado originalmente por MEATSHED:

They do I'm pretty sure. +1 defence and resistance with +20 HP is what you can get with a full set of forged tier 1 equipment in your body, legs and head with each item having 2 infusions points.

In that case, perhaps we need to up it another level to the equivalent tier 2 armor.

[GrandMajora]

Once Again, both Dragon Lords and Eldritch Sovereigns benefit from Racial Form traits.

Meaning that if you want a more tanky dragon, you can take Tough and Resistant for a combined 4 points, then add Hardy on there for an even 5.

+2 Physical Defense, +2 Magic Resistance, and the HP boost on top of that.

[Takichi]

60% Reduction from the Get go up to 90/95% Later on?.... So in your Mind you think they should be unkillable..... And yes they become Unkillable this Way.... Even 60& Reduction is simply Insane......

And i dont know how you think of someone like Ancalagon or Tiamat from DnD, who is a Dragon God. Since that are not your Typical Dragons. They are Akin to God´s or to some of the most Powerfull Beeings as Slaves of the greatest Evil in that World.

And that impression is fine. Because Dragons are very Powerfull in this Game. Not the Best (sadly, thats something we could argue why they need some buffs, like some more HP, a bit more Damage and Defensive Buffs, like 2-3 Points more from the get go), but Fine. They do good Damage, they can Frontline vs 1-2 Units later on even some more, depending on the Build, Items and so on. But they can Never 1 v 6 or 12 or 18... And Solo whole Armys. Which obviously makes Sense, since that wouldnt be balanced and Fun to Play at all, after the First Initial "Ahahaha how Funny OP that is". It gets boring the Second Time, because it will always be the Same. No Change in Tactics or anything.


Edit: Before the Argument is Made, yes with 90/95% Reduction you cant lose. At least not vs 6 Enemys. Because they would need to do something like 200+ Dmg Per Round Per Unit to get you even in the Dange Zone of dying.

[Kerry]

Publicado originalmente por GrandMajora:

Once Again, both Dragon Lords and Eldritch Sovereigns benefit from Racial Form traits.

Meaning that if you want a more tanky dragon, you can take Tough and Resistant for a combined 4 points, then add Hardy on there for an even 5.

+2 Physical Defense, +2 Magic Resistance, and the HP boost on top of that.

Did that, and it didn't really work.

[Kerry]

Publicado originalmente por Takichi:

60% Reduction from the Get go up to 90/95% Later on?.... So in your Mind you think they should be unkillable..... And yes they become Unkillable this Way.... Even 60& Reduction is simply Insane......

And i dont know how you think of someone like Ancalagon or Tiamat from DnD, who is a Dragon God. Since that are not your Typical Dragons. They are Akin to God´s or to some of the most Powerfull Beeings as Slaves of the greatest Evil in that World.

And that impression is fine. Because Dragons are very Powerfull in this Game. Not the Best (sadly, thats something we could argue why they need some buffs, like some more HP, a bit more Damage and Defensive Buffs, like 2-3 Points more from the get go), but Fine. They do good Damage, they can Frontline vs 1-2 Units later on even some more, depending on the Build, Items and so on. But they can Never 1 v 6 or 12 or 18... And Solo whole Armys. Which obviously makes Sense, since that wouldnt be balanced and Fun to Play at all, after the First Initial "Ahahaha how Funny OP that is". It gets boring the Second Time, because it will always be the Same. No Change in Tactics or anything.

So about them being gods: My impression was that was exactly what Dragon Lords were. I thought Dragon Lords were supposed to be Dragon Gods, hence the term I used: Dragods.

[Kerry]

Publicado originalmente por Takichi:

60% Reduction from the Get go up to 90/95% Later on?.... So in your Mind you think they should be unkillable..... And yes they become Unkillable this Way.... Even 60& Reduction is simply Insane......

And i dont know how you think of someone like Ancalagon or Tiamat from DnD, who is a Dragon God. Since that are not your Typical Dragons. They are Akin to God´s or to some of the most Powerfull Beeings as Slaves of the greatest Evil in that World.

And that impression is fine. Because Dragons are very Powerfull in this Game. Not the Best (sadly, thats something we could argue why they need some buffs, like some more HP, a bit more Damage and Defensive Buffs, like 2-3 Points more from the get go), but Fine. They do good Damage, they can Frontline vs 1-2 Units later on even some more, depending on the Build, Items and so on. But they can Never 1 v 6 or 12 or 18... And Solo whole Armys. Which obviously makes Sense, since that wouldnt be balanced and Fun to Play at all, after the First Initial "Ahahaha how Funny OP that is". It gets boring the Second Time, because it will always be the Same. No Change in Tactics or anything.


Edit: Before the Argument is Made, yes with 90/95% Reduction you cant lose. At least not vs 6 Enemys. Because they would need to do something like 200+ Dmg Per Round Per Unit to get you even in the Dange Zone of dying.

Counter: The 90/95% reduction in damage would logically be at the extreme endgame and the very highest levels of sovereign/hero, not at the beginning. Level 100, not level 1.

At that many turns in, you'd expect anyone who survived to be a hell of a lot tougher than when they started, dragons included.

[GrandMajora]

Publicado originalmente por Kerry:

Did that, and it didn't really work.

Well, of course not, you said you've had a lot of difficulty getting past level 8 with them. But the developers weren't lying when they said Dragons were extremely powerful.

Dragons don't have many equipment slots, because they don't really need them. As they level up and evolve, they get so many passive buffs on top of everything, that adding equipment to the mix would just be excessive.

I said before that the Materium Dragon breath can be upgraded to a point where it completely strips EVERY BUFF from the enemy on contact, which is extremely powerful as an AoE skill.

Nature Dragons can upgrade their breath to apply a healing effect to their allies, thereby completely negating the threat of friendly fire and allowing you to use your breath with impunity.

Also, with the last big update, Nature Dragons now gain the Fey and Plant trait upon their level 8 transformation. Previously, they only gained Plant.


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And these breath weapon attacks aren't small potatoes, either. I double checked their damage a while ago, and found out that they can dish out between 40-50 damage straight out of the gate.

That is 10-20 more damage than a Tier 5 Magelock Rifle, the strongest weapon in the game, and they can cast it in melee range as an AoE.

[Takichi]

Publicado originalmente por Kerry:

Publicado originalmente por Takichi:

60% Reduction from the Get go up to 90/95% Later on?.... So in your Mind you think they should be unkillable..... And yes they become Unkillable this Way.... Even 60& Reduction is simply Insane......

And i dont know how you think of someone like Ancalagon or Tiamat from DnD, who is a Dragon God. Since that are not your Typical Dragons. They are Akin to God´s or to some of the most Powerfull Beeings as Slaves of the greatest Evil in that World.

And that impression is fine. Because Dragons are very Powerfull in this Game. Not the Best (sadly, thats something we could argue why they need some buffs, like some more HP, a bit more Damage and Defensive Buffs, like 2-3 Points more from the get go), but Fine. They do good Damage, they can Frontline vs 1-2 Units later on even some more, depending on the Build, Items and so on. But they can Never 1 v 6 or 12 or 18... And Solo whole Armys. Which obviously makes Sense, since that wouldnt be balanced and Fun to Play at all, after the First Initial "Ahahaha how Funny OP that is". It gets boring the Second Time, because it will always be the Same. No Change in Tactics or anything.

So about them being gods: My impression was that was exactly what Dragon Lords were. Dragon Lords were supposed to be Dragon Gods, hence the term I used: Dragods.

And compared to the Normal Dragon Units in the Game they Are.
They will also slaughter Caster Godir in Meele.

But you cant just go and Make them "Godlike" as in "They are the Allmighty, or Unkillable" outside of the "Endless Respawn" Mechanic. It wouldnt be fun to play.

Like i Said they are for sure could benefit from some Buffs, be it more Variety Options, a Specific Dragonclass or such Things. But overall they are Fine. Espacially for now.

How this will look when the new DLC Drops with the Giant Ruler and the (if i dont missremember) overwork of the Item Workshop we have to see. Because i fear this will end in a really bad First Parch for Dragons.

[Kerry]

Publicado originalmente por GrandMajora:

Publicado originalmente por Kerry:

Did that, and it didn't really work.

Well, of course not, you said you've had a lot of difficulty getting past level 8 with them. But the developers weren't lying when they said Dragons were extremely powerful.

Dragons don't have many equipment slots, because they don't really need them. As they level up and evolve, they get so many passive buffs on top of everything, that adding equipment to the mix would just be excessive.

I said before that the Materium Dragon breath can be upgraded to a point where it completely strips EVERY BUFF from the enemy on contact, which is extremely powerful as an AoE skill.

Nature Dragons can upgrade their breath to apply a healing effect to their allies, thereby completely negating the threat of friendly fire and allowing you to use your breath with impunity.

Also, with the last big update, Nature Dragons now gain the Fey and Plant trait upon their level 8 transformation. Previously, they only gained Plant.


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And these breath weapon attacks aren't small potatoes, either. I double checked their damage a while ago, and found out that they can dish out between 40-50 damage straight out of the gate.

That is 10-20 more damage than a Tier 5 Magelock Rifle, the strongest weapon in the game, and they can cast it in melee range as an AoE.

I will note that prior to the Tiger Update I did manage to get a dragon to his first Major Transformation. I believe that's level 8, right?

Also, most of the stuff you're talking about is late-game. That's fine, I'm not asking for changes in that.

I'm asking for a reduction in early-game challenges.