Being an eldrich soveriegn feels hollow.

[Flakkyboo :3]

I only get access to a tier 2 constrictor and a tier 4 umbral dominatrix.
Where are my spitterlings. my will thief among other big fleshy monsters.

Demons get a spell that lets them smash together two lower tier units to create a higher tier unit, im struggling to understand why the umbral factions dont get something similar.

Surely they arent that powerful to not want us to only summon our flesh monsters

[Astasia]

Don't worry, you can summon Tinkerbell instead. Ya I dunno, it's a little weird. If you befriend the dwellings you can summon juggernauts and get the other demons from rallies, but anyone can do this without any real investment. There's an item mod you can craft onto wands to summon a random umbral demon in battle. I think though, the wisp summon should be replaced with something like a Mature Splitterling that maybe evolves into a Flesh Abomination. I think that would maybe "fix" the thematic dissonance.

[Balekai]

It's really all about balance.

You can start with a Splitterling (can't remember if it's the mature version or not) in combat, by adding the Umbral Disciples societal trait to your Eldritch Sovereign faction (Tyrant's Retinue), and others by making deals with Umbral Dwellings and gaining access to the special Umbral Demon summon spell (will summon anything but the Tyrant unit I believe at random).

Starting with 2 free ticking time bomb units for 20 AoE damage counting as a melee attack and then at level 12, getting a T3 tanky Abomination fighter unit replacement at the start of combat is nothing to sneeze at.

If you want to go full Eldritch Sovereign Summoner, you have to invest in it and not automatically get it by just being a Flesh ES.

Actually my gripe with the Flesh line (Nature/Shadow), is that it's a bit too Umbral demon thematic in the end for me, causing a thematic conflict sometimes with some ideas in trying to create a Nature summoner or Fey like Sovereign puppeteer that doesn't use Umbral demons. That said there's already issues with that when it comes to ES not getting Feytouched access and other types (except that most of their abilities always hit so Clinging Mist isn't to much of a hassle, but that's a different topic :p :P).

So if you were going to build a Puppeteer focused build that doesn't really want those splitterlings popping up for thematic reasons, you're forced to have them, usually making the idea darker and more evil. Or go down the less affinity thematic Mindbreaker line (Order/Shadow affinity) for a prankster ES that messes with peoples minds more, but less nature and more order affinity.

[Flakkyboo :3]

Originally posted by Astasia:

Don't worry, you can summon Tinkerbell instead. Ya I dunno, it's a little weird. If you befriend the dwellings you can summon juggernauts and get the other demons from rallies, but anyone can do this without any real investment. There's an item mod you can craft onto wands to summon a random umbral demon in battle. I think though, the wisp summon should be replaced with something like a Mature Splitterling that maybe evolves into a Flesh Abomination. I think that would maybe "fix" the thematic dissonance.

Exactly and even then only the fleshcrafter sovereign gets access to the small splitterlings which is upgraded to an abomination and thats only for 3 turns. If you dont enable the unbral realms in a game then you cant even get the umbral juggernaut summon which feels like such a big oversight

[Flakkyboo :3]

Originally posted by Balekai:

It's really all about balance.

You can start with a Splitterling (can't remember if it's the mature version or not) in combat, by adding the Umbral Disciples societal trait to your Eldritch Sovereign faction (Tyrant's Retinue), and others by making deals with Umbral Dwellings and gaining access to the special Umbral Demon summon spell (will summon anything but the Tyrant unit I believe at random).

Starting with 2 free ticking time bomb units for 20 AoE damage counting as a melee attack and then at level 12, getting a T3 tanky Abomination fighter unit replacement at the start of combat is nothing to sneeze at.

If you want to go full Eldritch Sovereign Summoner, you have to invest in it and not automatically get it by just being a Flesh ES.

Actually my gripe with the Flesh line (Nature/Shadow), is that it's a bit too Umbral demon thematic in the end for me, causing a thematic conflict sometimes with some ideas in trying to create a Nature summoner or Fey like Sovereign puppeteer that doesn't use Umbral demons. That said there's already issues with that when it comes to ES not getting Feytouched access and other types (except that most of their abilities always hit so Clinging Mist isn't to much of a hassle, but that's a different topic :p :P).

So if you were going to build a Puppeteer focused build that doesn't really want those splitterlings popping up for thematic reasons, you're forced to have them, usually making the idea darker and more evil. Or go down the less affinity thematic Mindbreaker line (Order/Shadow affinity) for a prankster ES that messes with peoples minds more, but less nature and more order affinity.

I have no issue with how the lord starts my issue is with how theirs a whole group of units i have little to no acess to outside of a trait that lets me use them for a few turns

[Balekai]

Originally posted by Flakkyboo :3:

Originally posted by Balekai:

It's really all about balance.

You can start with a Splitterling (can't remember if it's the mature version or not) in combat, by adding the Umbral Disciples societal trait to your Eldritch Sovereign faction (Tyrant's Retinue), and others by making deals with Umbral Dwellings and gaining access to the special Umbral Demon summon spell (will summon anything but the Tyrant unit I believe at random).

Starting with 2 free ticking time bomb units for 20 AoE damage counting as a melee attack and then at level 12, getting a T3 tanky Abomination fighter unit replacement at the start of combat is nothing to sneeze at.

If you want to go full Eldritch Sovereign Summoner, you have to invest in it and not automatically get it by just being a Flesh ES.

Actually my gripe with the Flesh line (Nature/Shadow), is that it's a bit too Umbral demon thematic in the end for me, causing a thematic conflict sometimes with some ideas in trying to create a Nature summoner or Fey like Sovereign puppeteer that doesn't use Umbral demons. That said there's already issues with that when it comes to ES not getting Feytouched access and other types (except that most of their abilities always hit so Clinging Mist isn't to much of a hassle, but that's a different topic :p :P).

So if you were going to build a Puppeteer focused build that doesn't really want those splitterlings popping up for thematic reasons, you're forced to have them, usually making the idea darker and more evil. Or go down the less affinity thematic Mindbreaker line (Order/Shadow affinity) for a prankster ES that messes with peoples minds more, but less nature and more order affinity.

I have no issue with how the lord starts my issue is with how theirs a whole group of units i have little to no acess to outside of a trait that lets me use them for a few turns

Again sort of intentional both in balance and theme.

An Eldritch Sovereign at its core is a playable Lost Wizard which is more about forbidden/forgotten magics and rituals, than mimicking the Umbral Tyrant.. Flesh gains minimal access to Tyrant like mechanics, but if you want to go full Umbral Tyrant ES build you need to go Umbral Dwelling friendship and maybe Umbral disciples for good measure.

[Flakkyboo :3]

Originally posted by Balekai:

Originally posted by Flakkyboo :3:

I have no issue with how the lord starts my issue is with how theirs a whole group of units i have little to no acess to outside of a trait that lets me use them for a few turns

Again sort of intentional both in balance and theme.

An Eldritch Sovereign at its core is a playable Lost Wizard which is more about forbidden/forgotten magics and rituals, than mimicking the Umbral Tyrant.. Flesh gains minimal access to Tyrant like mechanics, but if you want to go full Umbral Tyrant ES build you need to go Umbral Dwelling friendship and maybe Umbral disciples for good measure.

I mean thats totally fair if the devs consider it a balance thing,

The umbral dwelling first has to be enabled so its not accessible all the time and when it is accessible you only get acess to the juggernaught. the rest of the options from the dwelling are spells to help deal with the gloom effect if i recall correctly.

which in total gives you access to 3 separate units 2 of which are only alive for 3 turns and only with your lord.

their are 10 different umbral demon types and we get acess to 3 of these for a limited 3 turns with no way to summon more (Splitterlings, fleshlings and abomination) Or the juggernaught from a not gurranteed dwelling that you have to negotiate with and gives you a spell to summon one unit and from the tome you get the umbral mistress to be fair is quite nice to use.

That leaves 6 other umbral units we cant even play with meanwhile chaos players get the demon gate tome and can play with all 8 demon options from various tomes or spells "Tome of the Demon Gate" or "tome of revelry" Ect.

im just saying starting with a few extra timed units is not strong to the point you shouldnt have options to use these other units in your armies like other tomes get acess to.

[Midas]

Eldritch Sovereign does not automatically mean umbral abyss. Lost wizards are Ethereal units, not Umbral Demon units. They make more sense being tied to the Astral Sea than the Umbral Abyss.

[Blanch Warren]

Originally posted by Midas:

Eldritch Sovereign does not automatically mean umbral abyss. Lost wizards are Ethereal units, not Umbral Demon units. They make more sense being tied to the Astral Sea than the Umbral Abyss.

That's what I said, but no, they came out of the Umbral Abyss.

[Balekai]

Originally posted by Flakkyboo :3:

Originally posted by Balekai:

Again sort of intentional both in balance and theme.

An Eldritch Sovereign at its core is a playable Lost Wizard which is more about forbidden/forgotten magics and rituals, than mimicking the Umbral Tyrant.. Flesh gains minimal access to Tyrant like mechanics, but if you want to go full Umbral Tyrant ES build you need to go Umbral Dwelling friendship and maybe Umbral disciples for good measure.

I mean thats totally fair if the devs consider it a balance thing,

The umbral dwelling first has to be enabled so its not accessible all the time and when it is accessible you only get acess to the juggernaught. the rest of the options from the dwelling are spells to help deal with the gloom effect if i recall correctly.

which in total gives you access to 3 separate units 2 of which are only alive for 3 turns and only with your lord.

their are 10 different umbral demon types and we get acess to 3 of these for a limited 3 turns with no way to summon more (Splitterlings, fleshlings and abomination) Or the juggernaught from a not gurranteed dwelling that you have to negotiate with and gives you a spell to summon one unit and from the tome you get the umbral mistress to be fair is quite nice to use.

That leaves 6 other umbral units we cant even play with meanwhile chaos players get the demon gate tome and can play with all 8 demon options from various tomes or spells "Tome of the Demon Gate" or "tome of revelry" Ect.

im just saying starting with a few extra timed units is not strong to the point you shouldnt have options to use these other units in your armies like other tomes get acess to.

Good points. It would be more interesting I think if it was a random pool of lower tier Umbral unit's (with a higher chance of Splitterling for example). Then the level 12 upgrade opens access to a random pool of higher tier Umbral units.

Originally posted by Blanch Warren:

Originally posted by Midas:

Eldritch Sovereign does not automatically mean umbral abyss. Lost wizards are Ethereal units, not Umbral Demon units. They make more sense being tied to the Astral Sea than the Umbral Abyss.

That's what I said, but no, they came out of the Umbral Abyss.

The real question is, where does the Astral Sea end and the Umbral Abyss/Void begin? That's actually sort of a serious question after playing/looking at the lore in the Eldritch Realms Story Realms. In a way the Astral Sea could be a galaxy (Inner Worlds) like formation and the Void/Umbral abyss is the void in between, turned sour by the imprisonment of the Eidolons (including the Shadow Eidolon which was replaced by the corruption of Urrath's void power... I think. The actual original Shadow Eidolon is the one helping us in Arcalot through Sundren that when conquering Umbral Infestations/dwellings, turns the Umbral realm to frost/original shadow realm??.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Flakkyboo :3:

I only get access to a tier 2 constrictor and a tier 4 umbral dominatrix.
Where are my spitterlings. my will thief among other big fleshy monsters.

If I understand correctly, these are unlocked through choosing certain evolutionary paths with your ruler.

I know that the Fleshcrafter route is supposed to grant you access to at least one of them. I haven't tried Mind or Cosmic route yet, so not sure which ones unlocks what.

[JustACorpse]

One of the ascension traits gave me a spell to summon a willthief. I haven't gone on to check to see if that is the case for non-ES sovereigns and if similar bonuses apply to the other ascension traits. That being said, it would make sense as people have pointed out that the ES really shines after ascension due to it carrying over a lot of different bonuses.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, the ascension trait was primarily not about that summon. It was about the treacherous reflection spell. The way the trait was formatted seemed similar to how a lot of the bonuses that the ES gets have multiple aspects.

[Balekai]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Flakkyboo :3:

I only get access to a tier 2 constrictor and a tier 4 umbral dominatrix.
Where are my spitterlings. my will thief among other big fleshy monsters.

If I understand correctly, these are unlocked through choosing certain evolutionary paths with your ruler.

I know that the Fleshcrafter route is supposed to grant you access to at least one of them. I haven't tried Mind or Cosmic route yet, so not sure which ones unlocks what.

Here's the list form the Dev Diary which is the easiest place to get the (basic) info from really:

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1669000/view/4173227802691355228

The Madcaster can pick:
Cosmic Caster:
Their Chaos Pulse changes to Cosmic Pulse, which reduces the randomness of Chaos Pulse to instead be more damage oriented, always rolling on dealing Fire, Frost or Lightning damage. The radius also increases from 1-hex to 2-hex.
Gain a new passive, Forgotten Tome Mastery that boosts the damage of the damaging abilities you can gain from the Forgotten Tome Signature skills.

Havoc Caster:
These Eldritch Sovereigns go all in on randomness and have their Chaos Pulse become Havoc Pulse. It functions like the original except it applies 2 effects to the affected units
Gain a new passive, Chaos Channeling. It adds a 90% chance to apply a random negative status effect to all damaging combat spells.


The Mindbreaker can pick:
Enthraller:
Their Eldritch Truth becomes Enrapturing Truth. This new ability now applies Dominated, Berserk and increases the target’s damage instead of driving them mad. Being Dominated means you can acquire the unit at the end of combat!
Gain a new passive, Manipulator, which makes some of your mind affecting skills like Eldritch Mind Control target an extra target within a certain range of the original target.

Mind Devourer:
Eldritch Truth becomes Mind Shattering Truth, which not only applies the Madness effect but also deals physical damage that ignores the target’s defenses.
The passive Mindrend: The Eldritch Sovereign deals +70% more damage to any unit that has a Negative Mental Status Effect (Berserk, Insanity, Madness, etc)


Finally, the Fleshweaver can pick:
Puppeteer:
Possession becomes Puppeteer’s Possession, which can now give the damage increase to 3 allies instead of just one.
Changes the Eldritch Mind Control to Puppeteer’s Domination, which changes the effect from Mind Control to Dominated, which means you can keep the unit after combat for a mana cost.

Fleshsculpter:
Possession becomes Greater Possession: The damage bonus is increased to 80% while also giving the unit Status Protection so they can rampage until they drop.
Fleshweave changes to Fleshsculpt. Fleshsculpt makes it so that instead of 2 Fleshlings you summon a more long lasting summon, the Flesh Abomination, a Tier 3 Fighter.

Edit:

Originally posted by JustACorpse:

One of the ascension traits gave me a spell to summon a willthief. I haven't gone on to check to see if that is the case for non-ES sovereigns and if similar bonuses apply to the other ascension traits. That being said, it would make sense as people have pointed out that the ES really shines after ascension due to it carrying over a lot of different bonuses.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, the ascension trait was primarily not about that summon. It was about the treacherous reflection spell. The way the trait was formatted seemed similar to how a lot of the bonuses that the ES gets have multiple aspects.

Yep:

ASCENSION: SHADOWSHAPER
SHADOW MIRROR
Always Hits, single Action. 3 range
Create a Treacherous Reflection of target enemy unit.
Cannot target Heroes, Combat Summons, and Mythic Units.
Summoning - Once per battle
Tome(s) Researched : Tome of Corruption

https://minionsart.github.io/aow4db/HTML/Search.html?search=ascension

[Midas]

Originally posted by Blanch Warren:

Originally posted by Midas:

Eldritch Sovereign does not automatically mean umbral abyss. Lost wizards are Ethereal units, not Umbral Demon units. They make more sense being tied to the Astral Sea than the Umbral Abyss.

That's what I said, but no, they came out of the Umbral Abyss.

They CAN come from the umbral abyss, but it's well established that just the regular astral sea can mess up people who've been lost in it for too long.

Originally posted by Balekai:

The real question is, where does the Astral Sea end and the Umbral Abyss/Void begin? That's actually sort of a serious question after playing/looking at the lore in the Eldritch Realms Story Realms. In a way the Astral Sea could be a galaxy (Inner Worlds) like formation and the Void/Umbral abyss is the void in between, turned sour by the imprisonment of the Eidolons (including the Shadow Eidolon which was replaced by the corruption of Urrath's void power... I think. The actual original Shadow Eidolon is the one helping us in Arcalot through Sundren that when conquering Umbral Infestations/dwellings, turns the Umbral realm to frost/original shadow realm??.

The impression I got is just that it's a corrupted part of the astral sea.

[Flakkyboo :3]

Originally posted by Midas:

Eldritch Sovereign does not automatically mean umbral abyss. Lost wizards are Ethereal units, not Umbral Demon units. They make more sense being tied to the Astral Sea than the Umbral Abyss.

Just seems a waste to have all these interesting units and only have access to a fraction of them

[Balekai]

Originally posted by Flakkyboo :3:

Originally posted by Midas:

Eldritch Sovereign does not automatically mean umbral abyss. Lost wizards are Ethereal units, not Umbral Demon units. They make more sense being tied to the Astral Sea than the Umbral Abyss.

Just seems a waste to have all these interesting units and only have access to a fraction of them

There's some of that all over the place for a whole host of things though. Like one of my pet wants is a golem mount and I found out yesterday there's actually a severing golem mount in game as a drop lol.

But specifically with units there are many throughout the game that require similar effort (not as hard of course) to get access to them via Wonders/Vassals and can't be obtained anywhere else save for a random creature reward or domination. :)