CULTURE is why RACIAL UNITS don't matter so much

[Flushing]

There are a lot of grievances being discussed on this community forum involving the absence of unique racial units in AoW4.

While that's fair criticism and should not be dismissed, it's not fair to talk about it in isolation because Culture has filled that absence.

Note that AoW4 has a new culture mechanic and unique units are cultural instead of racial. In that regard we have six 6 cultures at release, each of them with their own unique units.

Those being:
1. Feudal
2. High
3. Barbarian
4. Industrious
5. Dark
6. Mystic

AoW3 never had Cultural units, instead unique units were racial, and on it's core release we had six 6 unique racial categories.

Those being:
1. Dwarf
2. Human
3. High Elves
4. Draconians
5. Orcs
6. Goblins

From a content perspective, that means the series has maintained unit diversity, it has just allocated it to different categories.

Again, I'm not dismissing the lack of unique racial units, but I do think it's unfair to remark about it without noting that cultural units have become the surrogate for racial units in AoW4.

It's also fair game to criticize the culture system, but we shouldn't be misleading newcomers, that content wise, there is an absence of unit diversity or unique units because that's not the case. Racial units were taken away because Cultural units have replaced them.

My guess is that based on the current game design, new cultures will be added to the game .

[Midas]

DragynDance eredeti hozzászólása:

Flushing eredeti hozzászólása:

There are a lot of grievances being discussed on this community forum involving the absence of unique racial units in AoW4.

While that's fair criticism and should not be dismissed, it's not fair to talk about it in isolation because Culture has filled that absence.

Note that AoW4 has a new culture mechanic and unique units are cultural instead of racial. In that regard we have six 6 cultures at release, each of them with their own unique units.

Those being:
1. Feudal
2. High
3. Barbarian
4. Industrious
5. Dark
6. Mystic

AoW3 never had Cultural units, instead unique units were racial, and on it's core release we had six 6 unique racial categories.

Those being:
1. Dwarf
2. Human
3. High Elves
4. Draconians
5. Orcs
6. Goblins

From a content perspective, that means the series has maintained unit diversity, it has just allocated it to different categories.

Again, I'm not dismissing the lack of unique racial units, but I do think it's unfair to remark about it without noting that cultural units have become the surrogate for racial units in AoW4.

It's also fair game to criticize the culture system, but we shouldn't be misleading newcomers, that content wise, there is an absence of unit diversity or unique units because that's not the case. Racial units were taken away because Cultural units have replaced them.

My guess is that based on the current game design, new cultures will be added to the game .

This is incorrect. Cultural units have filled the missing gap of class units, not racial units. Culture is effectively class, only now it only affects your units and not your main hero.

Completely incorrect. Cultural units are 100% racial units. They fit all the exact same tiers, the same point in gameplay, etc. I don't know how anyone could call culture the class unless they just have no idea how either game works, because you can easily put all these things side-by-side with their predecessors and very clearly see that culture units fit the exact same space as racial units in AoW3.

I honestly don't know how people even reach that conclusion. There's literally nothing there to reach that conclusion with, and you'd have to ignore ALL the tome units to convince yourself that culture is the class.

[RodHull]

Archon eredeti hozzászólása:

If all you see are the numbers and the min/max path through the cultures, tomes, etc., you're never going to be fully "onboard" with the whole role-playing aspect that the faction creator provides.

This right here is pretty much the issue.

Cause if you don't really care about playing in the sandbox and having fun and just want to min max the current system at that point does become less appealing as there is always going to be a meta build that just dunks on everything and cheeses the game.

The point I depart from you here is I don't think developers should cater toward min/maxers as inherently they will always find ways to break systems and make things not fun for themselves quicker than any other demographic

[Flushing]

Midas eredeti hozzászólása:

DragynDance eredeti hozzászólása:

This is incorrect. Cultural units have filled the missing gap of class units, not racial units. Culture is effectively class, only now it only affects your units and not your main hero.

Completely incorrect. Cultural units are 100% racial units. They fit all the exact same tiers, the same point in gameplay, etc. I don't know how anyone could call culture the class unless they just have no idea how either game works, because you can easily put all these things side-by-side with their predecessors and very clearly see that culture units fit the exact same space as racial units in AoW3.

I honestly don't know how people even reach that conclusion. There's literally nothing there to reach that conclusion with, and you'd have to ignore ALL the tome units to convince yourself that culture is the class.

You're right. It's all here, easy for you guys to look at the unit database:

https://minionsart.github.io/aow4db/HTML/ProvinceImprovements.html?type=Magic&

Culture is what race was, tomes/affinity combo is your class.

[RodHull]

elijafire eredeti hozzászólása:

Personal Opinion:

TBH I think it has something to do with our current culture which teaches as it's religious doctrine that "diversity is strength". It's not. Diversity is weakness.

It's a Communist concept. Force everyone to be equal and it sucks the life right out of humanity. America for it's minor flaws has always prided itself on it's ability to highlight, appreciate and protect every single American Citizen. When you make all "races" the same in a game like AOW then it takes away a huge choice, the MAIN choice which is the base physical realities of each "race".

Halfling should NEVER even be as strong as the weakest orc because that is simply who they are. Conversely an Orc should NEVER be able to move in places and be as dexterous as a Halfling. These are baked into your very first choice. When you make it all the same you take away any significance of that choice.

Our Nation has thrived the most with the The least Government involvement and censorship, It made us the most powerful nation on earth because it produces drive and freedom to express and accomplish.

One Nation. Under God. Indivisible. With FREEEEEDOM and justice for ALL. We are all Americans we don't need commies and socialists, it even manifests itself in our games.

I hope this post is next level trolling and satire otherwise I just feel sad for you.

[Flushing]

RodHull eredeti hozzászólása:

elijafire eredeti hozzászólása:

Personal Opinion:

TBH I think it has something to do with our current culture which teaches as it's religious doctrine that "diversity is strength". It's not. Diversity is weakness.

It's a Communist concept. Force everyone to be equal and it sucks the life right out of humanity. America for it's minor flaws has always prided itself on it's ability to highlight, appreciate and protect every single American Citizen. When you make all "races" the same in a game like AOW then it takes away a huge choice, the MAIN choice which is the base physical realities of each "race".

Halfling should NEVER even be as strong as the weakest orc because that is simply who they are. Conversely an Orc should NEVER be able to move in places and be as dexterous as a Halfling. These are baked into your very first choice. When you make it all the same you take away any significance of that choice.

Our Nation has thrived the most with the The least Government involvement and censorship, It made us the most powerful nation on earth because it produces drive and freedom to express and accomplish.

One Nation. Under God. Indivisible. With FREEEEEDOM and justice for ALL. We are all Americans we don't need commies and socialists, it even manifests itself in our games.

I hope this post is next level trolling and satire otherwise I just feel sad for you.

It's like Ye, the artist formerly known as Kanye has entered the forum...

[RodHull]

Flushing eredeti hozzászólása:

It's like Ye, the artist formerly known as Kanye has entered the forum...

I think even he would be like 'dude its a video game chill out not everything is a conspiracy'

[MEATSHED]

Also neither the developer or publisher are American, they're both European.

[RodHull]

MEATSHED eredeti hozzászólása:

Also neither the developer or publisher are American, they're both European.

This particular type of critic that is drawn to pdx is well aware, they think Sweden is basically a socialist commune (hence the vitriol)

[GrandMajora]

RodHull eredeti hozzászólása:

Flushing eredeti hozzászólása:

It's like Ye, the artist formerly known as Kanye has entered the forum...

I think even he would be like 'dude its a video game chill out not everything is a conspiracy'

You would be very ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ surprised...

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Midas eredeti hozzászólása:

snip

It seems your incapable of understanding.
Thanks for trying.

And before you say that i am wrong i am just going to point out you ignored the stuff like the ability to compleet change the world and having a single spell that makes dealing with mass low tier trash tolerable.

I dont get why it is impossible to understand just how lacking the age of wonders 4 spells are or how lacking high culture is.
I would highly recommand playing age of wonders 3 again and compair the sheer difference in gameplay.

[Midas]

Malaficus Shaikan eredeti hozzászólása:

Midas eredeti hozzászólása:

snip

It seems your incapable of understanding.
Thanks for trying.

And before you say that i am wrong i am just going to point out you ignored the stuff like the ability to compleet change the world and having a single spell that makes dealing with mass low tier trash tolerable.

I dont get why it is impossible to understand just how lacking the age of wonders 4 spells are or how lacking high culture is.
I would highly recommand playing age of wonders 3 again and compair the sheer difference in gameplay.

Nah, you're definitely wrong. It doesn't get more clear than looking at the exact units in question and comparing them. Now you're just shifting the goal posts to try and avoid it.

YOU brought up the units, and I addressed it.

YOU brought up the class, and I addressed it.

Either admit you're wrong and clear off, or provide something more substantial than whataboutisms. Otherwise you're just another whiner baselessly groaning about the game with nothing to back up your claims.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Midas eredeti hozzászólása:

Malaficus Shaikan eredeti hozzászólása:

It seems your incapable of understanding.
Thanks for trying.

And before you say that i am wrong i am just going to point out you ignored the stuff like the ability to compleet change the world and having a single spell that makes dealing with mass low tier trash tolerable.

I dont get why it is impossible to understand just how lacking the age of wonders 4 spells are or how lacking high culture is.
I would highly recommand playing age of wonders 3 again and compair the sheer difference in gameplay.

Nah, you're definitely wrong. It doesn't get more clear than looking at the exact units in question and comparing them. Now you're just shifting the goal posts to try and avoid it.

YOU brought up the units, and I addressed it.

YOU brought up the class, and I addressed it.

Either admit you're wrong and clear off, or provide something more substantial than whataboutisms. Otherwise you're just another whiner baselessly groaning about the game with nothing to back up your claims.

No you outright ignored the units and spells explaination and go:
But look at these blatently inferior aow4 units and spells that doesnt adress the fact they are nowhere nearly as power, usefull or unique.

You need to learn how to read.
Now in order to avoid getting into a fight i be the adult in this situation and just ignore you from now on.
I hope you have a nice day and enjoy the game.

[Midas]

Malaficus Shaikan eredeti hozzászólása:

Midas eredeti hozzászólása:

Nah, you're definitely wrong. It doesn't get more clear than looking at the exact units in question and comparing them. Now you're just shifting the goal posts to try and avoid it.

YOU brought up the units, and I addressed it.

YOU brought up the class, and I addressed it.

Either admit you're wrong and clear off, or provide something more substantial than whataboutisms. Otherwise you're just another whiner baselessly groaning about the game with nothing to back up your claims.

No you outright ignored the units and spells explaination and go:
But look at these blatently inferior aow4 units and spells that doesnt adress the fact they are nowhere nearly as power, usefull or unique.

You need to learn how to read.
Now in order to avoid getting into a fight i be the adult in this situation and just ignore you from now on.
I hope you have a nice day and enjoy the game.

No, I didn't, I specifically mentioned that both games had a bunch of unique spells, and I'm not going to list every single spell in AoW4 for you.

None of that changes the fact that you're ignoring the things I addressed in detail because you know you have nothing to say and you know you're wrong. You have no argument, nothing. And I don't care if you block me because you can't handle being wrong, but I'm going to continue to call out your pathetic BS whenever it shows up so everyone else can see how wrong you are.

[The Former]

elijafire eredeti hozzászólása:

Flushing eredeti hozzászólása:

There are a lot of grievances being discussed on this community forum involving the absence of unique racial units in AoW4.

While that's fair criticism and should not be dismissed, it's not fair to talk about it in isolation because Culture has filled that absence.

Note that AoW4 has a new culture mechanic and unique units are cultural instead of racial. In that regard we have six 6 cultures at release, each of them with their own unique units.

Those being:
1. Feudal
2. High
3. Barbarian
4. Industrious
5. Dark
6. Mystic

AoW3 never had Cultural units, instead unique units were racial, and on it's core release we had six 6 unique racial categories.

Those being:
1. Dwarf
2. Human
3. High Elves
4. Draconians
5. Orcs
6. Goblins

From a content perspective, that means the series has maintained unit diversity, it has just allocated it to different categories.

Again, I'm not dismissing the lack of unique racial units, but I do think it's unfair to remark about it without noting that cultural units have become the surrogate for racial units in AoW4.

It's also fair game to criticize the culture system, but we shouldn't be misleading newcomers, that content wise, there is an absence of unit diversity or unique units because that's not the case. Racial units were taken away because Cultural units have replaced them.

My guess is that based on the current game design, new cultures will be added to the game .

TLDNR:

Diversity is weakness. Homogeneity is the death of the unique individual. Taking away the significance of your very first choice makes that choice meaningless and takes away from the game-play.


Main Body:

For those who say you have "choices" so you can make your race like the traditional race:

That's fine for you but when I create my games I don't want a land full of NPC's with a lawful good hobbit that's a warlord cannibal strength in a group of various other weird crap like undead and giant orc rogues trying to be stealthy and backstab me. I expect a lawful good hobbit to be in a group of other hobbits or at least natural allies of the hobbits who are also of the good alignment.

Hopefully the mods can add a check mark button or a mod that will make all random maps follow the traditional rules.


Personal Opinion:

TBH I think it has something to do with our current culture which teaches as it's religious doctrine that "diversity is strength". It's not. Diversity is weakness.

It's a Communist concept. Force everyone to be equal and it sucks the life right out of humanity. America for it's minor flaws has always prided itself on it's ability to highlight, appreciate and protect every single American Citizen. When you make all "races" the same in a game like AOW then it takes away a huge choice, the MAIN choice which is the base physical realities of each "race".

Halfling should NEVER even be as strong as the weakest orc because that is simply who they are. Conversely an Orc should NEVER be able to move in places and be as dexterous as a Halfling. These are baked into your very first choice. When you make it all the same you take away any significance of that choice.

Our Nation has thrived the most with the The least Government involvement and censorship, It made us the most powerful nation on earth because it produces drive and freedom to express and accomplish.

One Nation. Under God. Indivisible. With FREEEEEDOM and justice for ALL. We are all Americans we don't need commies and socialists, it even manifests itself in our games.

Is the living God the Savior of some men? Or is 1 Timothy 4:10 correct? Because if 1 Timothy 4:10 is correct, we're all saved by the living God regardless of our present standing. We are a nation under God. Iran is a nation under God. South Africa is a nation under God. China is a nation under God. And the citizens and leaders of all those countries had their sin taken away on the cross 2,000 years ago.

In other words, I fail to see where God comes into this argument.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Midas eredeti hozzászólása:

Malaficus Shaikan eredeti hozzászólása:

No you outright ignored the units and spells explaination and go:
But look at these blatently inferior aow4 units and spells that doesnt adress the fact they are nowhere nearly as power, usefull or unique.

You need to learn how to read.
Now in order to avoid getting into a fight i be the adult in this situation and just ignore you from now on.
I hope you have a nice day and enjoy the game.

No, I didn't, I specifically mentioned that both games had a bunch of unique spells, and I'm not going to list every single spell in AoW4 for you.

None of that changes the fact that you're ignoring the things I addressed in detail because you know you have nothing to say and you know you're wrong. You have no argument, nothing. And I don't care if you block me because you can't handle being wrong, but I'm going to continue to call out your pathetic BS whenever it shows up so everyone else can see how wrong you are.

I am not blockking you.
Why would i do that?
Disagreeing is not a reason for blocking.

What i think is happening is that we have a very different value system.
You see keen eyed arcane caster with high culture as high elves.
I see: Spearman, bowman, horseman, support unit, spellcaster.
No acolyte that has the evolve trait, No phase capeable unicorn ridders, No griffion(You constantly ignore this unit by the way) No stunlocking storm sisters, No spearman who get lighting damage on higher levels.

Likewise you see:
Fulmination: Lightning AoE that inflicts Electrified.
I see: Lack of damage, short range, bad animation.
-Cascading Power: Gain a stack every time you cast a spell during combat, and at the end of each turn, a random enemy takes 5 damage per stack.
So i have to cast it multiple times vs: eldric storm which did damage and summons monsters to fight for you every turn with a single cast.

And you compleetly ignore awesome spells like:
Raze city if captured or causes massive moral panelties to a city+defendses.

I dont know if you notice but age of wonders 4 doesnt have spells that effect an entire enemy army or city.

-Astral Shattering: Destroys a whole province outright, including its population, and then spawns an army of astral marauders.
Nice
Why doesnt it every show up in my games?

All those things you praise.
Are barely worth a second thought with how little they effect the outcome of the game.
Astral shattering is the only spell worth mentioning.

Siege projects:
-Arcane Maelstrom: Destroys all towers and zaps 3 defenders each turn for 30 mixed-element damage
This one seems bugged last time i used it.