Custom Classes - Was it worth it?

[CrUsHeR]

So the big deal about AOW4 is that there are no preset classes.
You can mix everything, like a Faithful Feudal Frog Zealot, leading Demonic Hordes of Frost Nymphs, restoring the Mushroom Forests in his Underground Cave.


But how much reasonable freedom do you have, really?
Was playing around with the faction creator, and then i thought -

Greedy Industrious Goblins! With Fire!

Well in reality this is complete garbage. Now i have Sneaky Anvil Guards, which deal like 8 instead of 6 damage on flanking attacks, but can't tank as good as Dwarves due to lacking the Tough +2 defense boost.

Some turns later i got a Skald from an event, now my main stack is carried by fire elementals, the caster lord, and doesn't have a single Industrious unit.

So ultimately i'm running a downgraded version of Barbarian or Mystic culture, just with funny dwarven cosplay outfits.



Now if you're looking at the "meta" side of things, it gets even worse. There are a lot of tomes you would simply skip for any given build;

Example if you want to play a Necromancer, you would simply skip the Tome of Souls and don't bother with necromancy until ~tier 3. At most you would gimp yourself and still take the tome, but only to start harvesting souls for the actually useful stuff later on.

Or you play Astral Mystic, there is no reason to take the Tome of Warding if you can take e.g. the Tome of Roots in addition to the Tome of Evocation. That extra nature affinity would in fact fix the problem of Mystic being so poor on the economy side.



Also there's the immersion/RPG side. Yes you can play stylish themed classes which "feel right". Not just the linear monoclasses like e.g. High + Order, but some hybrids look and play pretty good. Example Barbarian Orcs with "Storm Earth and Fire" magic support.

But so much identity got lost entirely. Anyone remember when a race had its own culture? Like Tigrans being egyptian cats?




So right now i'm wondering - was it really worth dumping the entire class system?

I suppose most players would just roll with mono affinity builds anyways, like starting with High or Feudal and taking all the Order tomes, just because it seems the most logical choice. And the game even suggests taking these.

While the streamer fanboys probably just take whatever is being sold as the most "meta" tome, like starting with Tome of the Horde just for Spawnkin, and so on.

[アンジェル]

Originally posted by CrUsHeR:

Custom Classes - Was it worth it?
So the big deal about AOW4 is that there are no preset classes.
You can mix everything, like a Faithful Feudal Frog Zealot, leading Demonic Hordes of Frost Nymphs, restoring the Mushroom Forests in his Underground Cave.


But how much reasonable freedom do you have, really?
Was playing around with the faction creator, and then i thought -

Greedy Industrious Goblins! With Fire!

Well in reality this is complete garbage. Now i have Sneaky Anvil Guards, which deal like 8 instead of 6 damage on flanking attacks, but can't tank as good as Dwarves due to lacking the Tough +2 defense boost.

Some turns later i got a Skald from an event, now my main stack is carried by fire elementals, the caster lord, and doesn't have a single Industrious unit.

So ultimately i'm running a downgraded version of Barbarian or Mystic culture, just with funny dwarven cosplay outfits.



Now if you're looking at the "meta" side of things, it gets even worse. There are a lot of tomes you would simply skip for any given build;

Example if you want to play a Necromancer, you would simply skip the Tome of Souls and don't bother with necromancy until ~tier 3. At most you would gimp yourself and still take the tome, but only to start harvesting souls for the actually useful stuff later on.

Or you play Astral Mystic, there is no reason to take the Tome of Warding if you can take e.g. the Tome of Roots in addition to the Tome of Evocation. That extra nature affinity would in fact fix the problem of Mystic being so poor on the economy side.



Also there's the immersion/RPG side. Yes you can play stylish themed classes which "feel right". Not just the linear monoclasses like e.g. High + Order, but some hybrids look and play pretty good. Example Barbarian Orcs with "Storm Earth and Fire" magic support.

But so much identity got lost entirely. Anyone remember when a race had its own culture? Like Tigrans being egyptian cats?




So right now i'm wondering - was it really worth dumping the entire class system?

I suppose most players would just roll with mono affinity builds anyways, like starting with High or Feudal and taking all the Order tomes, just because it seems the most logical choice. And the game even suggests taking these.

While the streamer fanboys probably just take whatever is being sold as the most "meta" tome, like starting with Tome of the Horde just for Spawnkin, and so on.

Freedom > classes

It is really great how it is now.

[CrUsHeR]

Originally posted by アンジェル:

Freedom > classes

It is really great how it is now.

That's a truly reflected comment.

Astonishing how you managed to cover all aspects of the controversy in such detail.

[アンジェル]

Originally posted by CrUsHeR:

Originally posted by アンジェル:

Freedom > classes

It is really great how it is now.

That's a truly reflected comment.

Astonishing how you managed to cover all aspects of the controversy in such detail.

You think so? Awesome! I feel tired to repeat myself again and again. So that helps.

[Biff]

Yes. The custom race creation is the reason I bought the game and I find it works extremely well.

You seem to be complaining that your race became too chaotic and unfocused when you play which lead to an unoptimzed faction... Give it time man. Eventually you'll be familiar with what options are available and can plan accordingly. The choices are all on you, tomes an all. If you want those greedy industrious goblins, with fire; You can have them. It just takes a little foresight and restraint from making the "meta" choices

[jonoliveira12]

Too much freedom always becomes the same as too little.
I have been saying this, for a while. Too much choice creates disappointment, and choice itself becomes an illusion.

[chronobomb]

I think this benefits every one. Min/Maxers are happy. Role players are happy. People who have no clue have lots of options.

I am playing my pseudo Evil goblin barbarians who ride spiders and wield poison. They are trying to integrate with the other societies but are still dabbling in necromancy. Will they overcome their evil tendencies or will they succumb to their lust for power?

After that I am planning on playing some hippie unicorn loving dwarf mystics. I look forward to see how it works out.

These scenarios are only viable because of the freedom we have in this game. IMO anyone who struggle with too much freedom lacks imagination.

[suejak]

Hell yeah, the current system is great. The idea is you hire heroes with certain traits already, so they do seem to lend themselves to a particular "class" role. You just don't have to do that.

[CrUsHeR]

Originally posted by Biff:

Yes. The custom race creation is the reason I bought the game and I find it works extremely well.

You seem to be complaining that your race became too chaotic and unfocused when you play which lead to an unoptimzed faction... Give it time man. Eventually you'll be familiar with what options are available and can plan accordingly. The choices are all on you, tomes an all. If you want those greedy industrious goblins, with fire; You can have them. It just takes a little foresight and restraint from making the "meta" choices

The point is - you CAN make such a build just for fun, but you instantly realize that it is an artificial handicap. That's the question how much freedom is reasonable.



And that frog zealot using the horde tome is actually not a joke, in fact it's one of the most efficient builds to combine chaos and order.

Summon zealots on the fly which get Spawnkin and cost like -50% or less upkeep, pretty absurd.

[GrandMajora]

Your culture is not your class, and people need to stop confusing it as such.

Your 'class' is based on how you decide to build your hero as they level up their skills. If you want the leader of your MYSTIC faction to charge into battle with a two handed weapon as they cleave through enemies with their units providing long ranged support, you can do so.

Conversely, if you want the leader of your BARBARIAN faction to be a spell slinging shaman who hangs in the back row while sending their troops out to function as meat shields, you are likewise free to do so.

The major theme of this game is freedom of customization, that's what the devs spent a lot of attention towards hyping up. Nothing in the game is predetermined for you. Neither your racial traits, nor the approach your leader decides to handle conflict. Warrior, Mage, Archer, Support, it's up to you to decide how you want to make them.

[Butcher]

After some games, I agree. For instance, I would love to have nature bonuses for industrious units at the start, but some books, namely orange ones, are much better to take until T3. So some books are obviously better for certain classes (oh, sorry, CULTURES) and there are only an illusion of choice unless you want to pick less optimal route.

It could be worth if they walked all the way to full customization: truly creating your own race without limitation, also known as point buy system with unlimited positive and negative traits from Master of Orion or Stellaris. Creating your own units with picking equipment like Endless Legend or the same MoO/Stellaris,

Instead, there are limitations again: only 1 trait of that type, only 1 trait of that type. Pick from certain sets of units. Nono, you can't even create your own unit deck.

[Biff]

Originally posted by CrUsHeR:

Originally posted by Biff:

Yes. The custom race creation is the reason I bought the game and I find it works extremely well.

You seem to be complaining that your race became too chaotic and unfocused when you play which lead to an unoptimzed faction... Give it time man. Eventually you'll be familiar with what options are available and can plan accordingly. The choices are all on you, tomes an all. If you want those greedy industrious goblins, with fire; You can have them. It just takes a little foresight and restraint from making the "meta" choices

The point is - you CAN make such a build just for fun, but you instantly realize that it is an artificial handicap. That's the question how much freedom is reasonable.



And that frog zealot using the horde tome is actually not a joke, in fact it's one of the most efficient builds to combine chaos and order.

Summon zealots on the fly which get Spawnkin and cost like -50% or less upkeep, pretty absurd.

So min max to your hearts content and continue complaining. Or don't and enjoy one of the best parts of this game.

[No' Name]

I haven't and don't play AoW games. The last one was AoW 3, and only because it was free on Epic at that point in time, to which I've only played it for 30 mins, turned it off, an uninstalled it.

I bought, and play AoW 4, based entirely off of the faction/race/ruler creation.

That should pretty much say it all, for someone like me. And I enjoy 4X games, such as the Civ franchise. Never really got into AoW until now.

[The Former]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Your culture is not your class, and people need to stop confusing it as such.

Yes yes yes. This. Culture is a part of your race. Class is more handled by your choice of tomes and such. Yes, you do get one tome from your culture, but that doesn't make a class.

Greedy Industrious Goblins + Fire can be handled a few ways. What are you wanting to prioritize? For me, my image of this says (and this is off the top of my head)...

Bulwark, because they make strong equipment.
Elusive, because they like to steal stuff and get out without getting pinned down.
Industrious culture, obviously.
Runesmiths, leaning into my "strong equipment" angle.
Ruthless Raiders, the greedy wee bastards.

So right now we've got sturdy goblins who don't take a lot of damage from reactions and opportunity attacks, who gain Draft and Gold (LOOT!!) when they win battles and make strong arms and armor. Who, of course, seek out all the best shinies (Prospecting), work their little ears off (+Production income), and know their equipment intimately (Bolstered Def/Res each turn).

This blends real nice with their many shield units. They can reposition as needed to cut off enemy flanking attempts without taking too much damage when breaking off. The Bastion in particular benefits from this strategy. And hey, even taking that hit bolsters them against other attacks until the next round! If they really need retaliation attacks to go down, the Arbalest has them covered.

Okay, so what about Fire? Here's how I'd build, but this is just me:

• Pyromancy: The obvious first choice. I think I'd skip Fiery Arrows since I don't have a WHOLE lot of range and instead I'd go with Searing Weapons. Pyromancer should do solid work; we can set our gobbos on fire for full effect from her cooldown ability because we have Ruthless Raiders. If our frontline gobbos fall, there's always more gobbos.
  
• Warding: Who said we ONLY have to use fire? Throw some Static Shield in there! Now our many shield units are making them pay when they try to tap us for moving.
  
• Revelry: Just a thematic choice. I like imagining goblins who wanna jump for joy in the gold they've stolen. Plus, Bloodfury Weapons would be a nice addition to our many physical attackers, and the Skald isn't affected by any friendly fire from our flaming spells.
  
• Artificing: Need I say anything? This is very on brand. Tough fortifications, siege magic, bolt repeaters, improved armaments... And an Iron Golem if we want it.
  
• Devastation: Big Bro Warbreed on the field! But mostly I got this for Flameburst Weapons, which goes nicely with our theme. Devastator Spheres are also quite thematic, given that we're industrious.
  
• Terramancy: What industrious civilization that deals in heat couldn't do with a little digging under the earth? Plays into our industrial theme a bit, but also nods to the fire theme as a hint to where we're going next...
  
• The Crucible: Ohohoho yes. Fire, fire, and even more fire. The gobbos have by now mastered their craft, so now it's about turning up the heat.
  
• Chaos Channeling: How better to rob the world blind than to sow a little chaos? Plus there are some spells in here that make the goblins more comfortable around fire (Scion of Flame, and if I remember correctly, Daemonic Focus...?). Add some Gremlins for good measure if you want.

And then it's a tossup between Tome of the Creator and Tome of the Chaos Lord. Or I guess Daemon Gate could work if you wanna go that way, too.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Lockfågel, Paradoxriddaren:

Ruthless Raiders, the greedy wee bastards.

'Wee Bastards' would actually make a great faction name.

[Antonín Dvořák]

I like the fluid class system but the amount of options feels lacking. Like how the shadow tomes are a mix of the necromancer, frostlings and rogue from AoW3 but none of these three feel particularly well presented.