Alignment issues

[iainsankey]

In AOW3, no matter how evil the enemy player or city, 'good' players would damage their good alignment through declaring war, razing or migrating cities. This was absurd and illogical. If my crusader magician, with an army of angels, wants to take out an undead city and restore it to its original race, that should NOT be an evil act! Hostility towards good or neutral factions is evil, yes, but not against evil itself. By this logic, the hobbits were as evil as Sauron. I really hope that this mechanic is more sensible and contextual in AOW4.

[BBB]

Sauron was trying to free the Orcs from centuries of oppression, and to recover stolen property.

The Hobbits were a party to, and involved in, these crimes. They are evil.

[Butcher]

Originally posted by iainsankey:

In AOW3, no matter how evil the enemy player or city, 'good' players would damage their good alignment through declaring war, razing or migrating cities. This was absurd and illogical. If my crusader magician, with an army of angels, wants to take out an undead city and restore it to its original race, that should NOT be an evil act! Hostility towards good or neutral factions is evil, yes, but not against evil itself. By this logic, the hobbits were as evil as Sauron. I really hope that this mechanic is more sensible and contextual in AOW4.

No matter who starts the war, bad guys or good, ordinary people are in ruin. That includes skeleton/ghost/zombie people too.

[Terrkas]

Those innocent free undead people are people too you know? They just wanted to live their unlive, consume innocent living and do their daily work. Like lurking on graveyards for prey.

On a more serious note. In games it is allways hard to make a perfect fitting moral system, so I wouldnt give it to much thought. Also, there was a mention of casus belli. So I think there are ways to start wars without losing good alignment or standing among factions.

[GrandMajora]

So just because they came back to life, they are inherently evil and must be purged from the world? I suppose your army doesn't have a thing called 'doctors' and 'paramedics' in their detachments?

Necromancy is not inherently evil. While it's true they can't take skills from Life magic (which is inherently good alignment), they can still take skills from the Keepers of Light (which is also inherently good alignment).

[Chthonic Guardian]

The same cancer that is destroying D&D has arrived here I see.
"Hurr durr Zombie, orcs, and necromancers that only seek to destroy life and light, are good!"

[Butcher]

Originally posted by Chthonic Guardian:

The same cancer that is destroying D&D has arrived here I see.
"Hurr durr Zombie, orcs, and necromancers that only seek to destroy life and light, are good!"

Think about it. Dead are dead anyway, only rotting away without purpose. Wouldn't it be great if necromancers could use them to help with industry?

Well, it is not for everyone, so only those who signed contract are revived in afterlife. They could even get money as compensation. That wouldn't be more unethical than usual work.

[blackhand_lost]

But you don't get alignment penalty for resettling or destroying ghoul settlements.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Chthonic Guardian:

The same cancer that is destroying D&D has arrived here I see.
"Hurr durr Zombie, orcs, and necromancers that only seek to destroy life and light, are good!"

I'm pretty sure most of us were joking.

Sarcasm is something that our ancient ancestors would use in order to make light of, or add brevity to a situation. It was rather common practice, before the advent of Social Media crushed people's sense of humor harder than the American education system crushed their sense of individuality.

---------------

But my comment was mostly true. Necromancers in AoW 3 can still become Keepers, even though it's supposed to be a Good alignment themed skill set.

The Frostling campaign originally has you learn the deathless arts not to destroy the world, but to restore your clan's honor. You can even turn on the one who first taught you the craft, in an effort to stop her from killing everything on Athla.

[Shebeth]

Necromancy is the ultimate co-operative. How about a peace loving undead who just wants to be left alone on a political war against a greedy hobbit who masses wealth from the labour of his fairy realm subjects? It's all in your head to paint the picture you want. ;o)

[Gaius]

Originally posted by iainsankey:

In AOW3, no matter how evil the enemy player or city, 'good' players would damage their good alignment through declaring war, razing or migrating cities. This was absurd and illogical. If my crusader magician, with an army of angels, wants to take out an undead city and restore it to its original race, that should NOT be an evil act! Hostility towards good or neutral factions is evil, yes, but not against evil itself. By this logic, the hobbits were as evil as Sauron. I really hope that this mechanic is more sensible and contextual in AOW4.

Well, races (forms) are NOT undead in this game, a race become undead advancing in the tome of shadows (to my knowledge). So yeah, migrating population is basically forced expatriation of the whole population (at the VERY best scenario, and mind you, no city RECEIVES refugees, so even that is kinda wishful thinking), so yeah... depopulate cities is pretty evil.

[Terrkas]

To be fair, you could also argue, that your people wanted to become undead. After all, you can be their champion and essentially roleplay, that they wanted to become undead for various reasons. Like for example eternal (un-)life. Hell, you could even roleplay as only the dead get recruted after the transformation spell, because so they can serve and protect the living. And on a sidenote, you also could opt NOT to turn a race into undead.

[Chthonic Guardian]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Chthonic Guardian:

The same cancer that is destroying D&D has arrived here I see.
"Hurr durr Zombie, orcs, and necromancers that only seek to destroy life and light, are good!"

I'm pretty sure most of us were joking.

Sarcasm is something that our ancient ancestors would use in order to make light of, or add brevity to a situation. It was rather common practice, before the advent of Social Media crushed people's sense of humor harder than the American education system crushed their sense of individuality.

---------------

But my comment was mostly true. Necromancers in AoW 3 can still become Keepers, even though it's supposed to be a Good alignment themed skill set.

The Frostling campaign originally has you learn the deathless arts not to destroy the world, but to restore your clan's honor. You can even turn on the one who first taught you the craft, in an effort to stop her from killing everything on Athla.

So it is sarcasm, mostly, except you are serious about it. Gotcha.

[Balekai]

All jokes and sarcasm aside, here's an actual example of "good evil, but good" Necromancer Peoples/Empire:

The last custom map I was working on in AoW3 was a super large, world spanning map based around a benevolent holy empire of Immortal Elves that spanned an entire continent in the World's north. Long ago however, the continental paradise was wiped out by the younger races to the south due to unbridled envy and misplaced hatred. So much so, they tapped into primeval dark magics to create an eldritch bomb. A bomb that turned the northern paradise continent into an icy grave.

From the outside the Elven continent is one massive frozen impenetrable glacier, and the only known remnants of the Empire is the magic-infused, sea-spanning bridge of stone that connects the Northern Continent to the Southern Continent (had fun making that super bridge to nowhere and the hidden water caves that allowed hard to reach exits/entrances to the Elven regions inside the glacier :p ).

However, a secret still resided in the lands of the North: The Immortal Elves may have been killed and their lands destroyed, but they still live on... in immortal death. The quick casting of an ancient holy spell by the Elven leader (player), protected many regions in and around their great cities from "The Weapon." The Elven people, cities and lands inside these small areas remained intact, but were blighted by undeath, including their savior. Ever since, the Elves have been slowly building their forces and mastering their undeath.

Now the ancient undead march south over the great bridge they once forged to connect their lands in trade to the stone/tool age, non-seafaring races of the time. Their great fleets pour through glacial caverns leading to the Great Sea. Not to conquer, but to liberate and fullfill their ancient oath to protect the lesser races. Races that have been under the rule of false deities since the Elven fall. The same "divine pantheon" that destroyed the great Elven civilization, stole their divine magics and have ruled through the millennia with utter tyranny under the guise of holiness (The races to the south were a mixture of Dreadnoughts/Theocrats evil or corrupted to their core).

I'm guessing with the map editor and custom race/research starts, I could recreate this world in AoW4. I might be limited by map size if it's no longer possible to make super large custom maps. Regardless, it's pretty easy to come up with a benevolent people forced into Necromancy. Either by their own actions, the actions of others, curses or by their environment like a dying world.

I agree though it shouldn't be outright evil for a good faction to attack an evil faction etc. Their should be a more nuanced approach. Good "Necro" empires should have penalties for being attacked even by "good" factions. Or at least have scaling penalties based partially on player reputation and actions. The same goes for crusading "good" empires that put everyone to the sword under their righteous banners. There should be less of a penalty to attacking such a faction because they're killing everyone. :p

[Overlord Byron]

Originally posted by Chthonic Guardian:

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

I'm pretty sure most of us were joking.

Sarcasm is something that our ancient ancestors would use in order to make light of, or add brevity to a situation. It was rather common practice, before the advent of Social Media crushed people's sense of humor harder than the American education system crushed their sense of individuality.

---------------

But my comment was mostly true. Necromancers in AoW 3 can still become Keepers, even though it's supposed to be a Good alignment themed skill set.

The Frostling campaign originally has you learn the deathless arts not to destroy the world, but to restore your clan's honor. You can even turn on the one who first taught you the craft, in an effort to stop her from killing everything on Athla.

So it is sarcasm, mostly, except you are serious about it. Gotcha.

What are you objecting to, exactly?

The idea that orcs, the undead, and necromancers aren't ontologically evil isn't new. It has precedence in AoW2, the second game in this franchise, where Merlin necessarily becomes a magician of the death sphere and remains a force for good and balance.

And it isn't new to D&D, either. 2E introduced the Baelnorn, Lawful Good elven liches who attained lichdom to act as undead guardians of elven communities.

To TC's point, it is indeed silly that a 4x game so heavily predicated on combat penalizes your for declaring war, but razing a city of sentient creatures is inarguably more evil than being a skeleton or having green skin.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Overlord Byron:

And it isn't new to D&D, either. 2E introduced the Baelnorn, Lawful Good elven liches who attained lichdom to act as undead guardians of elven communities.

Yup, and Baelnorns don't reincarnate like living elves do. Once they're destroyed, that's it, they're gone forever. Which is why elves in D&D actually hold immense respect for anyone who's willing to sacrifice their long term immortality to undergo the transformation.