The "stagger" mechanic is complete garbage

[Huaquero]

WTF IS THIS GARBAGE HAHAHA YOU GOT 2 SECONDS TO CHARGE HEAVY A BOSS OR IT GOES AWAY AND THE BOSS IS MOVING LIKE NOTHING HAPPENED LOL

[Army of Optimists]

Buy the upgrades that increase the stagger window, use a faster weapon like the Salamander dagger, or hit them with your Fable attacks instead of trying to charge a full heavy attack.

There are ways to adapt to this.

[Manslayer]

It is very bad I agree, that said some fable arts can trigger a knock down so try to save your fable for those moments.

[KingDragoon]

If you can't do it, man you must suck.

[Huaquero]

Originally posted by KingDragoon:

If you can't do it, man you must suck.

You must be 1 of those cheesing players who spams jumping attack in elden ring and thinks hes good . I never said I cant do it you bum sniffer . Its just so garbage and poorly designed compared to every other soulsborne game out there .

[HighLanderPony]

The bar should be visible. The invisible bar sucked in ER and it sucks here.

[hisv]

Originally posted by Army of Optimists:

Buy the upgrades that increase the stagger window, use a faster weapon like the Salamander dagger, or hit them with your Fable attacks instead of trying to charge a full heavy attack.

There are ways to adapt to this.

That's one of the main issues with the game imo. Locking things that are incredibly NECESSARY for the game to feel good behind upgrades, just like how ADP almost singehandedly ruined DS2.

[Army of Optimists]

Originally posted by \:

Originally posted by Army of Optimists:

Buy the upgrades that increase the stagger window, use a faster weapon like the Salamander dagger, or hit them with your Fable attacks instead of trying to charge a full heavy attack.

There are ways to adapt to this.

That's one of the main issues with the game imo. Locking things that are incredibly NECESSARY for the game to feel good behind upgrades, just like how ADP almost singehandedly ruined DS2.

I've taken none of the Stagger window upgrades and done just fine. They aren't necessary, just an option. One of three that I laid out.

Y'know, options. That thing the Dark Souls series gets unanimous praise for?

Originally posted by HighLanderPony:

The bar should be visible. The invisible bar sucked in ER and it sucks here.

I do agree with this. Seeing the stagger increasing is a level of feedback that makes the system feel better and allows you to prepare for the right moment. Would also help make those long parry strings feel like you're making progress against the enemy instead of being relentlessly beat on like a pinata.

[hisv]

Originally posted by Army of Optimists:

Originally posted by \:

That's one of the main issues with the game imo. Locking things that are incredibly NECESSARY for the game to feel good behind upgrades, just like how ADP almost singehandedly ruined DS2.

I've taken none of the Stagger window upgrades and done just fine. They aren't necessary, just an option. One of three that I laid out.

Y'know, options. That thing the Dark Souls series gets unanimous praise for?

Respectfully disagree with you on this.

[Army of Optimists]

Originally posted by \:

Originally posted by Army of Optimists:

I've taken none of the Stagger window upgrades and done just fine. They aren't necessary, just an option. One of three that I laid out.

Y'know, options. That thing the Dark Souls series gets unanimous praise for?

Respectfully disagree with you on this.

If you feel like they're required for how you want to play the game, that's totally your choice!
I also make sure to pick up a ranged attack in every Soulslike I've played (and switched to the gun arm in Lies of P as soon as I could), but neither of them are necessary.

I think making the double dodge an easily-attained upgrade is a bit of good game design. It asks the player to at least try the parry system out before spamming dodge roll as a solution to everything. If you hate the parrying? You can unlock the enhanced dodge in the first two hours and never deal with it again.

[HighLanderPony]

Originally posted by Army of Optimists:

Originally posted by \:

Respectfully disagree with you on this.

If you feel like they're required for how you want to play the game, that's totally your choice!
I also make sure to pick up a ranged attack in every Soulslike I've played (and switched to the gun arm in Lies of P as soon as I could), but neither of them are necessary.

I think making the double dodge an easily-attained upgrade is a bit of good game design. It asks the player to at least try the parry system out before spamming dodge roll as a solution to everything. If you hate the parrying? You can unlock the enhanced dodge in the first two hours and never deal with it again.

Or... what's most likely to happen is that people try the dodge, they find it underwhelming, have no idea that it could get better, and quit before they even get the chance to improve it.

Which is why I don't think doing this is a good idea.

[hisv]

Originally posted by Army of Optimists:

Originally posted by \:

Respectfully disagree with you on this.

If you feel like they're required for how you want to play the game, that's totally your choice!
I also make sure to pick up a ranged attack in every Soulslike I've played (and switched to the gun arm in Lies of P as soon as I could), but neither of them are necessary.

I think making the double dodge an easily-attained upgrade is a bit of good game design. It asks the player to at least try the parry system out before spamming dodge roll as a solution to everything. If you hate the parrying? You can unlock the enhanced dodge in the first two hours and never deal with it again.

Again, respectfully disagree with you, I don't think those features should be choices.

The dodge just feels off if you don't have the upgrade, and I've had at least three instances of a boss that ran off as soon as I got the stagger window on him, then when I got to him I still had to perfect parry his multi-hit combo to THEN be able to do my charge attack. And you can't say it's a skill issue because I can't see the stagger window to time it after the boss uses its running attack. It's RNG and it may never even happen, but it feels really bad when it does.

I love this game, but the combat feels really off just like playing DS2 without ADP.

[Army of Optimists]

Originally posted by HighLanderPony:

Originally posted by Army of Optimists:

If you feel like they're required for how you want to play the game, that's totally your choice!
I also make sure to pick up a ranged attack in every Soulslike I've played (and switched to the gun arm in Lies of P as soon as I could), but neither of them are necessary.

I think making the double dodge an easily-attained upgrade is a bit of good game design. It asks the player to at least try the parry system out before spamming dodge roll as a solution to everything. If you hate the parrying? You can unlock the enhanced dodge in the first two hours and never deal with it again.

Or... what's most likely to happen is that people try the dodge, they find it underwhelming, have no idea that it could get better, and quit before they even get the chance to improve it.

Which is why I don't think doing this is a good idea.

The double dodge doesn't actually make it into a "good" option, though. It makes a "last-resort" option into a "sometimes useful" one.

Have you ever played Sekiro? The dodge here is similar. It's good for avoiding big attacks and studying an enemy's moveset, but if you're trying to play like a Dark Souls game and roll-counter every attack, you're probably going to have problems. The game wants you to parry - it staggers enemies, leaves you in a better position to counter, is the only way to reliably beat unblockable attacks, and has myriad upgrades that can increase your damage; break enemy weapons; generate Fable; or heal you.

So, I guess I lied (ha, thematic). You can unlock the double-dodge early, but I don't think it's a wise idea to ignore the parry entirely. You can probably beat the game without parrying, just as you could probably beat Sekiro with only dodge, but it'd be the equivalent of a challenge run.

Locking the double-dodge behind an upgrade is the equivalent of Bloodborne giving you a nigh-useless shield near the start of the game. I remember similar complaints when Bloodborne came out asking why the blocking is such garbage.

[Manslayer]

Originally posted by Army of Optimists:

Originally posted by HighLanderPony:

Or... what's most likely to happen is that people try the dodge, they find it underwhelming, have no idea that it could get better, and quit before they even get the chance to improve it.

Which is why I don't think doing this is a good idea.

The double dodge doesn't actually make it into a "good" option, though. It makes a "last-resort" option into a "sometimes useful" one.

Have you ever played Sekiro? The dodge here is similar. It's good for avoiding big attacks and studying an enemy's moveset, but if you're trying to play like a Dark Souls game and roll-counter every attack, you're probably going to have problems. The game wants you to parry - it staggers enemies, leaves you in a better position to counter, is the only way to reliably beat unblockable attacks, and has myriad upgrades that can increase your damage; break enemy weapons; generate Fable; or heal you.

So, I guess I lied (ha, thematic). You can unlock the double-dodge early, but I don't think it's a wise idea to ignore the parry entirely. You can probably beat the game without parrying, just as you could probably beat Sekiro with only dodge, but it'd be the equivalent of a challenge run.

Locking the double-dodge behind an upgrade is the equivalent of Bloodborne giving you a nigh-useless shield near the start of the game. I remember similar complaints when Bloodborne came out asking why the blocking is such garbage.

I dodge most fights, dodge as a mechanic can easily be your main defensive tool. That said, I generally mix between dodge and parry when low on stamina/need to make a clutch block.

[HighLanderPony]

Originally posted by Army of Optimists:

Originally posted by HighLanderPony:

Or... what's most likely to happen is that people try the dodge, they find it underwhelming, have no idea that it could get better, and quit before they even get the chance to improve it.

Which is why I don't think doing this is a good idea.

The double dodge doesn't actually make it into a "good" option, though. It makes a "last-resort" option into a "sometimes useful" one.

Have you ever played Sekiro? The dodge here is similar. It's good for avoiding big attacks and studying an enemy's moveset, but if you're trying to play like a Dark Souls game and roll-counter every attack, you're probably going to have problems. The game wants you to parry - it staggers enemies, leaves you in a better position to counter, is the only way to reliably beat unblockable attacks, and has myriad upgrades that can increase your damage; break enemy weapons; generate Fable; or heal you.

So, I guess I lied (ha, thematic). You can unlock the double-dodge early, but I don't think it's a wise idea to ignore the parry entirely. You can probably beat the game without parrying, just as you could probably beat Sekiro with only dodge, but it'd be the equivalent of a challenge run.

Locking the double-dodge behind an upgrade is the equivalent of Bloodborne giving you a nigh-useless shield near the start of the game. I remember similar complaints when Bloodborne came out asking why the blocking is such garbage.

Then the situation is worse than I thought.

Yeah, I played Sekiro. The dodge is situationally useful but jumping back or parrying is usually better.

[Julien]

Yep, for the dodge I think people are trying to play this game like BB or modern souls game, but this game has not the same combat mechanics, so you don't get the same feeling. You can still do it, but it's not really how the game wants you to play.

For the stagger bar, with the strength weapon, i also find very difficult to do it in the correct time frame. You need to stay close, wait for an opening and get a charged R2 attack in before the enemy strikes you again. Very though.
If a enemy do like a three hit combo right when the bar appears, you won't get a chance to charge your weapon.

Def. upgrading that one.