Lies of P

Lies of P

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Whirblewind 2024 年 9 月 3 日 下午 9:01
Any other bosses as garbage as Barren Swamp's boss? (spoilers)
Let's get it out of the way to save you time and me headache: this isn't a discussion on difficulty or relative balance. I'm a vet of these games, I can SLmin the From games, charm Sekiro, 2ring1run DS2, etc. Let's stay on the topic of subjective fun.

Green Monster is a garbage boss in all the ways I expect a Soulslike boss to get things wrong. Aggressive lateral tracking with no regard to the boss model or its legs turning, excruciatingly delayed telegraphs (a sin Elden tragically abuses in nearly every fight but LoP has managed to largely avoid until now), boss collision box obliterating player vision and locking the player into a corner, two-phase overlong fight which is a problem shared with Romeo.

Other than Romeo being too long, this game has been so refreshing. Its boss and environment geometry have been so thoughtful, much of the time in corrective ways the recent From games have continued to get wrong. I've had criticisms of course, but my praise has been overwhelming. This boss and area were crushing to my enthusiasm.

This boss, and frankly the dour, boring, thoughtless environment it sits at the end of, was dispiriting. I'm not sure if another huge dud like this would get me to stop playing given the first half of the game being so good so this post is likely mostly just an excuse to vent, but it's certainly possible.

Please give me hope the rest of the second half of this game isn't this lazy. I don't want to believe the budget ran out and corners had to be cut. Tell me this was the bottle episode.
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正在显示第 31 - 45 条,共 46 条留言
Whirblewind 2024 年 9 月 6 日 下午 12:12 
引用自 drunk driver
Conceptually it's a stupid fight, you are expected to defeat 4 bosses while cramped in a small room and having 2 others throw their shjt at you while you 1v1 one of them. I would say rng also matters since some of them give you an easier time than the others and essentialy give you a head start.
It's a GIGANTIC room relative to their size, the throws are infrequent, slow and weak and if you are fighting more than 1 person for more than a second or two it's a skill issue; the fight is overwhelmingly 1v1.
Conceptually it's you being ganged up on but they aren't actually doing that, presumably so as to not hit their sibling who is closest to you.. which is a really clever justification for the fight not actually ganging up on you.
In my attempts the idle sibling(s) would organically pool in the middle while I was fighting the active sibling around the outer half of the arena. Unless approached they wouldn't ever join in except to rarely throw trivial projectiles I was rarely in one place long enough to even have to keep in mind to dodge.
It's a great fight because it's thoughtful of these potentialities ; all of these criticisms were considered and worked into the fight. The result is they are actually a little TOO passive.
drunk driver 2024 年 9 月 6 日 下午 12:13 
Also, "Door Guardian" is the worst boss and it's not even close.
Bankai9212 2024 年 9 月 6 日 下午 12:41 
引用自 Whirblewind
引用自 drunk driver
Conceptually it's a stupid fight, you are expected to defeat 4 bosses while cramped in a small room and having 2 others throw their shjt at you while you 1v1 one of them. I would say rng also matters since some of them give you an easier time than the others and essentialy give you a head start.
It's a GIGANTIC room relative to their size, the throws are infrequent, slow and weak and if you are fighting more than 1 person for more than a second or two it's a skill issue; the fight is overwhelmingly 1v1.
Conceptually it's you being ganged up on but they aren't actually doing that, presumably so as to not hit their sibling who is closest to you.. which is a really clever justification for the fight not actually ganging up on you.
In my attempts the idle sibling(s) would organically pool in the middle while I was fighting the active sibling around the outer half of the arena. Unless approached they wouldn't ever join in except to rarely throw trivial projectiles I was rarely in one place long enough to even have to keep in mind to dodge.
It's a great fight because it's thoughtful of these potentialities ; all of these criticisms were considered and worked into the fight. The result is they are actually a little TOO passive.
Which is false if you have a summon at all because they'll attack through each other to hit them. The AI in the fight is simple but inconsistent. Look we can go back and forth but for most they are weak boss compared to most either bottom half if not middle. Just not enjoyable imo.
Bankai9212 2024 年 9 月 6 日 下午 12:42 
引用自 drunk driver
Also, "Door Guardian" is the worst boss and it's not even close.
I think its more of a mini-boss imo but it certainly wins that worst in that category.
Whirblewind 2024 年 9 月 6 日 下午 1:06 
引用自 Bankai9212
Which is false if you have a summon at all because they'll attack through each other to hit them. The AI in the fight is simple but inconsistent. Look we can go back and forth but for most they are weak boss compared to most either bottom half if not middle. Just not enjoyable imo.
Amusingly you just hinged your argument on the summon making the fight harder, which is typically something that makes the fight easier.. so just don't summon?
But what would I know, I don't summon in Soulslikes for reasons I think are best left to another topic due to my first paragraph. Ultimately it does sound like a "doctor, it hurts when I touch it" "so stop touching it" situation with.. whatever it is you think the summon is doing for your fight.

I found the AI to be just as consistent as any other in its behavior other than the deliberate (assumed on my part) randomization of which sibling activates, which as stated earlier, doesn't really change anything about the fight. At best I can only imagine any given player's playstyle may be narrowly focused such that maybe you're too used to short range or slow weapons and the sibling that best punishes that playstyle gives you a problem, but then that would just be doubling back to a sk- Candle Jack was here.

If at any given time a boss does something that feels timed to punish the player at the worst time, the solution is not be in that position as if the hypothetical that it will always happen is reality. Your options narrow around this probability and your strategy gets leaner and as a result cleaner.

I might go as far to say this fight was one of the multi-boss Soulslike fights with the fewest variables to keep track of. Haven't played the Remnant games or the Lords of the Fallen remake, but otherwise it's probably bottom 3 for variables.. which means incredibly consistent. The God of War remake was dog dookie but that's a game that will teach you what being ganged up on by offscreen enemies really means in some of those volcano realm challenges.
Bankai9212 2024 年 9 月 6 日 下午 1:15 
I only did that for the second playthrough, I beat them solo NG even then its not because they don't want to hit each other its just a tag team rotation. All I was saying is that they are more active when you have the specter as they ganked him.

Not a playstyle just the overall flow of the fight which always vary based on the player and weapon. Granted slow weapons really do suck overall late game.

I can't avoid the hook from the idle brother if he's off camera that aside it can be applied to any boss. The arena is meh in general since you can end up against an obstacle. Can happen in any game or fight.

Remnant is mainly a shooter so keeping distance gives you full view of everything and Lords of the fallen has maybe 1 or 2 fights with multiple enemies.

God of War remake gives you an indicator if your being attacked from behind/blindspot.
Black Captain 2024 年 9 月 6 日 下午 2:00 
I really didn't like the 2nd Black Rabbit fight on NG+. I realized it required a specific way to fight far too late and it definitely RNG influenced. The first time I played it, I rinsed the living 3 before the 4 guy came back.

In NG plus, it wasn't able to get the last one down before the 4th spawned and my summoned died. Then it was just a brutal 2 v 1 which is never fun. It's artificial difficulty to bloat enemy count and call it harder. You could have made a boss with multiple mechanics, i.e. the Green Monster, and have a dynamic fight that relies less on raw damage, spreading damage, RNG, and fighting 3 targets at the same time. 1 enemy, a few new attack strings, and a 2nd phase with mostly reused attack strings.

And Romeo was easy AF. Super fun fight. I beat the game with a slow weapon first, then a fast weapon. By in large, this game is pretty well balanced and any issues the players run into are completely the players fault. Parrying is stupid easy in this game and the attack strings are memorable and few enough to be able to get them down. If anyone is struggling still they are trying to play the game incorrectly on purpose instead of learning the game mechanics. This game is more like Sekiro in that regard, so I can see why people who would rather blame the game for their own failures would talk as they are.
Whirblewind 2024 年 9 月 7 日 下午 5:23 
Checking in to say yeah, Door Guardian was not a good fight.. because it wasn't a fight at all. Door Guardian was a parry tech demo with a 48!!! second corpse run. Yes, I timed it.

I like parrying in this game. When it's not coupled with delayed telegraphs and invisible hitbox multi-hit lunges, it's fun. I would enjoy a fight that asks the player to parry as much as Door Guardian does while also being an actual fight.

But this was the truest sense of the word a gimmick. The gimmick is produce stagger damage with the cost of failing twice in a row being a minute of your life wasted running back to re-attempt the tech demo. That's not a fight meant for a Soulslike, it's an exam one goes to school or the military for. Even me, who enjoys the hell out of parrying, found this offensive.

If this were a real boss where things like character progression choices matter, it could have actually been a favorite for me. I think the roll attack probably would have kept it from being there, but it might have had a chance.

I played the footage back on the roll to see the hitbox on the first hit and.. someone at Neowiz needs some unpaid leave. Either the person responsible or the person who decided to push the game out unfinished and then not go back to fix it. The game came out like a year ago, you had a chance to fix it.

It wasn't worse than Green Monster. Even with its delayed telegraphs, the actual swing speed on all but one attack is fast enough that it mitigates the trope a bit, so for the most part the fight feels fair. It's fair to cater to its gimmick, which is unfortunate backhand, but it is fair.

I can see why it bothers people so much, especially if someone isn't really a Just Guard type of player. I don't want to even imagine how much effort this fight takes for someone who can't (or won't) parry. That's obviously a skill issue for the most part, but it's easier to sympathize with here because the boss's design taunts you with wasting 5x more of your finite lifespan if you don't learn it, which is mean-spirited as gimmick fights often can be in pursuit of their gimmick execution.
drunk driver 2024 年 9 月 8 日 上午 3:36 
引用自 Whirblewind
Not worse than Green Monster.
There's no way there isn't some personal bias that made you genuinely believe Green Monster is worse. Door Guardian doesn't even have a proper name.
Whirblewind 2024 年 9 月 8 日 上午 5:59 
Laxasia was not anywhere near as fun as a boss as cool looking as her should have been. All of the good will her design and the Ganon-style reflected orbs got from me was lost with all the delayed telegraphs.

Neowiz, like From's A team, are too dumb to allow refighting bosses, so I'll have to wait for NG+ to try her again because I'm just too lazy to load some rando's save off the internet for this one fight I didn't enjoy to begin with, but I'd love to see how this fight goes without the grindstone for perfect guard.

Initially I used the grindstone for the start of the fight and later on just because, but eventually I started doing the orbs myself and just eating the 50/50 (as good as I could get the lunge at the end, maybe I'm just too old but the speed on it is too fast for me to do any better) and then using it just after for breathing room. It didn't feel good because I feel like if I'm not consistently nailing a fight, I'm not really beating it, and Laxasia's ♥♥♥♥ is so fast and you have to sit through the first phase because you missed 1 attack in phase 2, I really didn't "learn" her how I normally would. It felt like a shortcut and that's distinctly not fun.

I don't like having to arbitrarily self-handicap in these games to have fun; I want a bespoke encounter tuned to make use of the game's systems as designed. I already compromise on the use of summons in these games, like many do, but I compromise begrudgingly. The perfect guard grindstone feels like something I will have to omit from future Laxasia fights to keep in line with the intended experience and that sucks. It sucks because it's a self-handicap and it sucks that she's so aggressive, with such an annoying mix of extremely fast telegraphs and delayed telegraphs that I even got the idea to try it to begin with.

It's not about making her any easier, which it obviously does, but about making her less ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ obnoxious. Other than her inconsistent lateral tracking in phase 1, there's nothing unfair about her. She abuses delays but is clean enough to do without flasking. If this were about difficulty I'd be whining until I'm blue in the face that this fight should have been much harder, not the other way around. But phase 2's cadence of ultra-fast and delayed ultra-fast just made me pine for the first half of the game again when telegraphs were honest.

It's hard to believe a game with Fuoco, a fight that beat my previous favorite Soulslike for favorite boss, is in the same game as thoughtless delay spamming nonsense like this boss. The budget really did evaporate at the half-way point.

引用自 drunk driver
There's no way there isn't some personal bias that made you genuinely believe Green Monster is worse. Door Guardian doesn't even have a proper name.
Not only is it worse in general considering how lenient Door Guardian's attacks are to parry, it would be worse due to the presence of the short-range tentacle spam Green does with no telegraph by itself. You're mad enough someone disagreed with you on the order of how fun a boss is you thought its name would appeal to my ability to compromise? Miss me with any more of your mindreading nonsense, thanks in advance.
drunk driver 2024 年 9 月 8 日 上午 6:25 
引用自 Whirblewind
引用自 drunk driver
There's no way there isn't some personal bias that made you genuinely believe Green Monster is worse. Door Guardian doesn't even have a proper name.
Not only is it worse in general considering how lenient Door Guardian's attacks are to parry, it would be worse due to the presence of the short-range tentacle spam Green does with no telegraph by itself. You're mad enough someone disagreed with you on the order of how fun a boss is you thought its name would appeal to my ability to compromise? Miss me with any more of your mindreading nonsense, thanks in advance.
I was remarking that the fight with Door Guardian was so badly made and forced in to the game that the developers didn't even bother giving it a proper name, of course this jumped over your head and you went to making your own conclusions. I'm not mad lol, just confused as to how someone would find a shjtty gimmick fight with a ridiculous run back time more enjoyable than an actual boss fight.
Whirblewind 2024 年 9 月 8 日 上午 6:35 
Alright my guy you can repeat what you said with different words but you're still mad I didn't share your assessment that the fight wasn't worse, you're somehow still confused about why despite all of the reasons I provided and now you're blocked for wasting my time. Compromise means accepting the impasse and now you don't have a choice.
Whirblewind 2024 年 9 月 8 日 上午 6:47 
And I just one-shot Manus. What a disappointment. I am going to work now but I pray to whatever god hates these poor fable characters that the optional final boss was given more development time than whatever the hell that was supposed to be.
drunk driver 2024 年 9 月 8 日 上午 6:49 
引用自 Whirblewind
Alright my guy you can repeat what you said with different words but you're still mad I didn't share your assessment that the fight wasn't worse, you're somehow still confused about why despite all of the reasons I provided and now you're blocked for wasting my time. Compromise means accepting the impasse and now you don't have a choice.
Yeah forget everything i wrote, i'm barely able to control my rage as i'm typing this because you don't agree with my opinion. I won't even be able to continue living my life normally knowing a random person doesn't share the same opinion as me.
A Amateur 2024 年 9 月 11 日 下午 7:09 
I agree this was the worst boss so far in the game. The bad camera. The poor animation telegraphs. The attack delays. The quick sneak attacks. The strange funky movement. I kept losing and then I set the game on 165 fps and beat the boss immediately. This game eats inputs at 60fps depending on the monitor that you are using. I have had numerous button presses do nothing. This boss seems to require faster input requirements than the prior bosses.
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发帖日期: 2024 年 9 月 3 日 下午 9:01
回复数: 46