This game relies to heavily on (perfect) block/parry

[Dr.Acula]

When I look at the Dark Souls series and Elden Ring it was always possible to finish the game by either using primarily dodge or parry depending on preference. People could also combine both for even better outcomes.

Personally I usually preferred the dodge mechanic as it fit my playstyle much more and because I had a lot of trouble timing parries properly.

Here now comes Lies of P which basically forces me to rely and utilize a mechanic that never suited me in the first place while making dodge pretty terrible in terms of usability and I'm not really sure where the advantage is to make one mechanic terrible (while still keeping it in the game) and centering the defense entirely around this one other mechanic.

Please don't get me wrong. I don't want to force people to use dodge instead of block. I think it's just pretty bad in terms of gameplay design to basically put everything on a single card without leaving alternative options on the table.

I've seen comments stating that it's possible to finish the game using only dodge but that it isn't fun which after having played for several hours I can completely understand it. I've defeated Fuoco now on my own (second try) but the way the game wants me to play just doesn't feel fun.

I admittedly suck at timing perfect blocks which just leaves me with blocking normally watching my health go down partially to then get in 1-3 heavy strikes to regain my health to then rinse and repeat until an enemy dies. When the enemies glow red I either somehow manage to get some distance or I will eat a nasty hit as will fail the perfect block in 9 out of 10 cases and dodge is maybe reliable in 50% of the cases (at best).

On one hand I'd like to explore this story around "Pinocchio". On the other the gameplay is just so frustrating and boring (due to the lack of actual options) that I don't even want to start up the game anymore...

[SmallGespenst]

Okay, bringing up parries as something people could do as a primary way to defend themsleves in most souls game is just silly when everything that isn't humanoid is 100% immune to parries, and then a lot of bigger threats that are humanoid have a lot of attack that can't be parried anyway.
Blocking can be reliable, but Parries are not.

And yes, Lies places too much of a focus on Perfect Blocks. Perfect blocks damage the opponent's weapons and push them towards their next Stagger, they're the only effective counter to Fury Attacks (outside of an Amulet from a late game boss) I'm not letting "just run away" count 'cause it's not remotely consistent, especially when it's Fury attacks in a combo. Perfect Blocks also get a ton of upgrades varying from doing what they already do better, recovering Guard Regain and Fable, and even restoring weapon Durability. Frankly the game puts so much weight on Perfect Blocks that it feel wrong not to rely on them.

[Dr.Acula]

Originally posted by SmallGespenst:

Frankly the game puts so much weight on Perfect Blocks that it feel wrong not to rely on them.

And this is a huge problem in my opinion as LoP just mentions the ability once or twice early on when the mechanics are shown but doesn't even give you tools to maybe make the usability easier.

A game that relies so heavily on this functionality needs to provide options to better utilize it. There is this skill system things like stagger can be upgraded. Why is there no option right in the first stage to increase the timing window for perfect blocks? For those that already are good at using it there could be an alternative to maybe deal more damage to an opponents weapon (you just block twice in stead of three times to destroy the weapon for example). Then there would be an actual choice to be made.

People like myself could use larger timing windows while having to block more often while others can rely on their own skills in timing and defeat bosses more quickly. There is a balance aspect there without actually nerfing bosses.

I've seen complaints in the forums regarding devs having nerfed bosses but it seems that they aren't looking at the tools the players have at their disposal (which are more likely to create frustation) to fight the bosses in the first place and maybe make adjustments there. Fix dodge, improve block related skills or provide options to improve movement of the character in general.

[WhiteLezard]

I barely perfect parried and still managed to finish the game, dodging or running away from fury attacks instead.
I think your issue is that this game doesn't allow you to just abuse i-frames.

[Dr.Acula]

Originally posted by WhiteLezard:

I barely perfect parried and still managed to finish the game, dodging or running away from fury attacks instead.
I think your issue is that this game doesn't allow you to just abuse i-frames.

First off all I don't even know what "abusing i-frames" means. Sounds like an arbitrarily made up phrase.

Second of all I did not say I couldn't finish the game. I could finish it if I wanted to. I said the game just isn't fun to play which means there is not really any motivation for me to continue.

[Kamamura]

I-frames is short for "invulnerability frames", which describes the mechanic giving a defensive move like roll, dash or quickstep certain amount of frames during which your character cannot be damaged (although measuring time in frames is very archaic and console-centric, because modern systems have variable framerates).

People got used to it, but I personally never liked it, because it leads to mechanical and unrealistic habits and expectations - for example "rolling into" an attack, which would be nonsense in a realistic fight - first of all, a roll is a terrible defensive move (which works in a game, because it's well telegraphed and easily perceivable, and it usually rewards the player with advantageous position), and second, i-frames sort of allow you to ignore the type of attack - you could dodge right into the weapon trajectory and you are still perfectly safe.

[Dr.Acula]

I know what I-frames are but I specifically asked for the definition of the phrase "I-frame abuse" which to me sounds like completely made up nonsense.

When a dodge system in a game is based on an i-frame system then there is no "abusing" it. You're going to use the mechanic in the way it was implemented to avoid damage on your character.

If someone complains about dodge with I-frames being unrealistic then let me know how realistic it is to stand in front of an enemy with the weapon held above your head while every strike that enemy will do will always hits the weapon instead of your character. Makes no sense from a realism point of view as any enemy in real life would simply try to strike from the side or below when you're holding a weapon above your head.

LoP does not have a realistic combat system. And btw. it doesn't need to be realistic. Combat systems in games centered around combat simply should be fun.

[Cookie]

Agree, perfect block is way too tight. You can't play on react at all. Only learning patterns.
Dodging away is viable. But the best mindset for this game is to play block/parry for simple attacks and dodge for thing you have hard time facing.

[Dr.Acula]

And that unfortunately makes the game boring from a gameplay perspective.

[Count von Bunnyhopven]

Originally posted by Dr.Acula:

I know what I-frames are but I specifically asked for the definition of the phrase "I-frame abuse" which to me sounds like completely made up nonsense.

When a dodge system in a game is based on an i-frame system then there is no "abusing" it. You're going to use the mechanic in the way it was implemented to avoid damage on your character.

If someone complains about dodge with I-frames being unrealistic then let me know how realistic it is to stand in front of an enemy with the weapon held above your head while every strike that enemy will do will always hits the weapon instead of your character. Makes no sense from a realism point of view as any enemy in real life would simply try to strike from the side or below when you're holding a weapon above your head.

LoP does not have a realistic combat system. And btw. it doesn't need to be realistic. Combat systems in games centered around combat simply should be fun.

Its like Kamamura describes. The problem with i-frames is that it promotes behaviors in veteran players that are very unrealistic and hard to balance around.

New players dodge away from attacks in order to not get hit. Veteran players dodge right in to the enemy attack, deliberately letting themselves get hit, because thats the easiest way to dodge an attack with i-frames. After all, if your body and the enemy attack are moving in the opposite direction then it will minimize the amount of time they could potentially interact and thus make it easier to avoid damage in the limited time frame you are immortal.

Also you end up on the opposite side of the enemy swing meaning that the enemy must turn around before they can attack again. Thus giving the players a couple of free attack.

But again, this is only something that a veteran players would know about. For newbies the system works as intended in that it gives the player some extra safety margins.

[SmallGespenst]

Originally posted by Count von Bunnyhopven:

Originally posted by Dr.Acula:

I know what I-frames are but I specifically asked for the definition of the phrase "I-frame abuse" which to me sounds like completely made up nonsense.

When a dodge system in a game is based on an i-frame system then there is no "abusing" it. You're going to use the mechanic in the way it was implemented to avoid damage on your character.

If someone complains about dodge with I-frames being unrealistic then let me know how realistic it is to stand in front of an enemy with the weapon held above your head while every strike that enemy will do will always hits the weapon instead of your character. Makes no sense from a realism point of view as any enemy in real life would simply try to strike from the side or below when you're holding a weapon above your head.

LoP does not have a realistic combat system. And btw. it doesn't need to be realistic. Combat systems in games centered around combat simply should be fun.

Its like Kamamura describes. The problem with i-frames is that it promotes behaviors in veteran players that are very unrealistic and hard to balance around.

New players dodge away from attacks in order to not get hit. Veteran players dodge right in to the enemy attack, deliberately letting themselves get hit, because thats the easiest way to dodge an attack with i-frames. After all, if your body and the enemy attack are moving in the opposite direction then it will minimize the amount of time they could potentially interact and thus make it easier to avoid damage in the limited time frame you are immortal.

Also you end up on the opposite side of the enemy swing meaning that the enemy must turn around before they can attack again. Thus giving the players a couple of free attack.

But again, this is only something that a veteran players would know about. For newbies the system works as intended in that it gives the player some extra safety margins.

The thing about suggesting that it's unrealistic is that it's a video game, almost nothing is realistic
Sure, the I-frames are inherently unrealistic, but so is being able to just block a charging monster with a rapier or a small shield. or swinging a sword cleanly through someone's gut without cetting stuck or even meaningfully cleaving through to make 10% of their HP disappear (and HP itself is an inherently unrealistic concept, people don't have a set amount of harm that they can recieve and be entirely fine, then get a paper-cut and drop dead 'cause that was the last 1HP.)
It's all abstractions 'cause any attempt to replicate anything remotely realistic would take a completely stupid amount of work, and make for a bad game.
I-frames are just another abstraction, they're replicating actual evasive techniques like ducking under a blow, and evading towards an attack isn't actually unrealistic at all; someone throws a right-hook at you, and you duck underneath in the direction it's coming from and you'll get out of the way more effectively since it leaves less room for them to follow your motion and hit you anyway, and getting behind them is an explicit benefit of that kind of method. Panicking and avoiding backwards is a rookie error in IRL too, since your opponent will just follow you and keep swinging.
It's almost funny that your main complaint is accurate to life.

[Dr.Acula]

Originally posted by Count von Bunnyhopven:

Its like Kamamura describes. The problem with i-frames is that it promotes behaviors in veteran players that are very unrealistic and hard to balance around.

New players dodge away from attacks in order to not get hit. Veteran players dodge right in to the enemy attack, deliberately letting themselves get hit, because thats the easiest way to dodge an attack with i-frames. After all, if your body and the enemy attack are moving in the opposite direction then it will minimize the amount of time they could potentially interact and thus make it easier to avoid damage in the limited time frame you are immortal.

Also you end up on the opposite side of the enemy swing meaning that the enemy must turn around before they can attack again. Thus giving the players a couple of free attack.

But again, this is only something that a veteran players would know about. For newbies the system works as intended in that it gives the player some extra safety margins.

You completely ignored the point I was trying to make. It doesn't matter what kind of behavior it promotes or whether or not it's realistic. The important aspect is - IS IT FUN?

The mechanics of dodging in Dark Souls/Elden Ring are usually fun. The same can be said to some degree with blocking and parrying if you use it the right way. It creates a certain flow to the combat in fromsoft games. The combat is also the part I praised the most in Elden Ring even if the boss design in that game is extremely flawed.

LoP doesn't have a good flow to its combat. It's very static if you can't find the right timing for a perfect block. Often you just stand or move slowly while holding block attacks until there is a small opening to initiate an attack yourself just to immediately go back into block when the enemy starts another attack combo.

It lacks fun and engaging aspects. Also from what I've seen it seemed to have been designed with a certain (very small) audience in mind that has good reflexes for perfect blocks. That small audience may even enjoy the way the mechanics are designed and from what I've seen they have also complained considerably about enemies having been nerfed.

Nerfing enemies doesn't fix problems with the combat mechanics for people outside that niche audience though. It might make it easier to defeat a boss with the existing mechanics but it doesn't make the combat itself more fun to deal with. There seems to be an inherent problem on the developer side to understand what issues are actually affecting LoP and how they could address it.

[Chris]

Originally posted by Dr.Acula:

When I look at the Dark Souls series and Elden Ring it was always possible to finish the game by either using primarily dodge or parry depending on preference. People could also combine both for even better outcomes.

Personally I usually preferred the dodge mechanic as it fit my playstyle much more and because I had a lot of trouble timing parries properly.

Here now comes Lies of P which basically forces me to rely and utilize a mechanic that never suited me in the first place while making dodge pretty terrible in terms of usability and I'm not really sure where the advantage is to make one mechanic terrible (while still keeping it in the game) and centering the defense entirely around this one other mechanic.

Please don't get me wrong. I don't want to force people to use dodge instead of block. I think it's just pretty bad in terms of gameplay design to basically put everything on a single card without leaving alternative options on the table.

I've seen comments stating that it's possible to finish the game using only dodge but that it isn't fun which after having played for several hours I can completely understand it. I've defeated Fuoco now on my own (second try) but the way the game wants me to play just doesn't feel fun.

I admittedly suck at timing perfect blocks which just leaves me with blocking normally watching my health go down partially to then get in 1-3 heavy strikes to regain my health to then rinse and repeat until an enemy dies. When the enemies glow red I either somehow manage to get some distance or I will eat a nasty hit as will fail the perfect block in 9 out of 10 cases and dodge is maybe reliable in 50% of the cases (at best).

On one hand I'd like to explore this story around "Pinocchio". On the other the gameplay is just so frustrating and boring (due to the lack of actual options) that I don't even want to start up the game anymore...

Playing a strength build so far and the regular guard is so strong that I havent had to learn parrying the bosses fully like in Sekiro because I could just regain my health, so it's not absolutely necessary but yea it's the intended way to play

[Dr.Acula]

Originally posted by Chris:

Playing a strength build so far and the regular guard is so strong that I havent had to learn parrying the bosses fully like in Sekiro because I could just regain my health, so it's not absolutely necessary but yea it's the intended way to play

The important question though:
Do you consider it a fun way to play?

[saluteyourshorts]

I don't think it's so much the reliance on perfect block, but more that the enemy animations and movements are all so different from each other and weirdly unnatural. Every new encounter of boss feels like I'm starting over from square one. In other games, if you struggle for a long time on a boss, but then master it, the skills you've learned are going to help you in future boss fights. That doesn't seem to be the case in this game.

[C1REX]

I think it’s a matter of preference.
For me personally it’s perfection. The system is much easier and forgiving than in Sekiro or Bloodborne.
I personaly block a lot while using a light weapon. Sure, I get huge block damage but with its relatively easy to get it back with a fast rapier or umbrella.

I also just upgraded my shield arm and can block red attacks now :)