Perfect block - risk vs reward

[Tutejszy1]

So, there's been a lot of discussion about this game, which is very understandable - it is, unquestionably, brilliant, but it asks so much from the players that each balancing issue can cost players hours of their time.

One of the most discussed topics is perfect block and I only see it discussed from one side - many players say that, due to how tight the parry window is, it is just not worth risking going for it when dodge is easier and typically allows you to get more damage in.

I wanted to suggest looking at this from the other side: I think that asking the players to take such risk would be fine, IF the reward for them was adequate - but it's not. In other words, I believe that stagger damage that comes from perfect blocking is just too low.

This mechanic is, obviously, often compared to Sekiro, but I'd rather look at Wo Long, as the overall gameplay is more similiar. In Wo Long, parrying a red attack rewards you with MASSIVE damage to stagger bar, and normal perfect blocks also build up the bar rather fast. Here, I feel like when you succesfully deflect a red attack vs a boss, you get like 1/8th of a stagger at best, and stagger from deflecting normal attacks only really matters when you somehow manage to deflect a full flurry.

So, yeah, I feel like this might be worth considering - changing a perfect block window would be a massive change and would alter how the entire game feels, but adjusting the numbers on the stagger damage would be really discreet, but might make the deflect-centric playstyle more viable (and the whole game a bit more accessible)

[IronBanana]

İlk olarak Persona Au Gratin tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak IronBanana tarafından gönderildi:

The real risk vs reward is the parry skill, but not work like intended.

It works fine, sorry. Also love how your boss example is one of the better designed fights in the game lmfao. You're using the move on the wrong parts of the string so you get pushed far away. Like you're saying it's about "risk reward" then you choose to use the Fable Art parry on attacks where the risk is low for you.

In all the bosses after the patch work like the video.

Example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1SjWm2InQM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4smoT9wRv0

[Nonexistinghero]

I think the reward for perfect block is plenty. This isn't Sekiro where doing perfect blocks alone will easily result in a stagger. But the difference between using perfect blocks and not using them is pretty significant to get an enemy to stagger. With perfect blocks it can take 2-3 heavy charged heavy hits from my weapon to get a boss to white stagger. Without it'll take like 5 or so.

That being said... I do think the timing for perfect blocks in this game is awkward. Well, at least for me. Enemies have a weird delay at the end of many of their moves that cause me to press either too early or a bit too late. It's not like that timing can't be learned, but... I just think it's kinda awkward. I'm near the end of the game and I still haven't ♥♥♥♥♥♥ used to it. I do suppose that it is possible to react to it, but my reaction speed is kinda meh so I have to predict (was the same for Sekiro even though I could perfectly parry many of the hardest bosses' attacks).

[Persona Au Gratin]

İlk olarak Nonexistinghero tarafından gönderildi:

That being said... I do think the timing for perfect blocks in this game is awkward.

That's because many attacks take more than 60 frames of start up, they're deliberately awkward rhythms. The Fury Attack stomp from Fallen Archbishop Andreas' first hit occurs on frame 96. The Parade Puppet big slam occurs on frame 116, just under 2 seconds.

You can't cancel your attack into a guard unless you, say, use a Fable Art I believe, still testing stuff. But when we're going into weird frame counts like nearly 1.5 seconds, and this is not including frame perfect, perfect guards... yeah, that's awkward timing to say the least. And it's on purpose. And the problem isn't "user error" or "learning it", it's that those are sucker punch timings/wind ups and are deliberately awkward for a reason.

İlk olarak IronBanana tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Persona Au Gratin tarafından gönderildi:

It works fine, sorry. Also love how your boss example is one of the better designed fights in the game lmfao. You're using the move on the wrong parts of the string so you get pushed far away. Like you're saying it's about "risk reward" then you choose to use the Fable Art parry on attacks where the risk is low for you.

In all the bosses after the patch work like the video.

Example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1SjWm2InQM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4smoT9wRv0

Nah, you want standardized timings? How about you figure out where you're allowed to use the move properly lol, git gud. You don't want anyone else to have quality of life, why should anyone feel bad that you can't use your move properly? You better find where that parry works, little buddy, ol' "The real risk reward." Stop being a baby and quit to title screen + Reload that Victor fight.

[IronBanana]

İlk olarak Persona Au Gratin tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Nonexistinghero tarafından gönderildi:

That being said... I do think the timing for perfect blocks in this game is awkward.

That's because many attacks take more than 60 frames of start up, they're deliberately awkward rhythms. The Fury Attack stomp from Fallen Archbishop Andreas' first hit occurs on frame 96. The Parade Puppet big slam occurs on frame 116, just under 2 seconds.

You can't cancel your attack into a guard unless you, say, use a Fable Art I believe, still testing stuff. But when we're going into weird frame counts like nearly 1.5 seconds, and this is not including frame perfect, perfect guards... yeah, that's awkward timing to say the least. And it's on purpose. And the problem isn't "user error" or "learning it", it's that those are sucker punch timings/wind ups and are deliberately awkward for a reason.

İlk olarak IronBanana tarafından gönderildi:

In all the bosses after the patch work like the video.

Example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1SjWm2InQM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4smoT9wRv0

Nah, you want standardized timings? How about you figure out where you're allowed to use the move properly lol, git gud. You don't want anyone else to have quality of life, why should anyone feel bad that you can't use your move properly? You better find where that parry works, little buddy, ol' "The real risk reward." Stop being a baby and quit to title screen + Reload that Victor fight.

"-you can't use your move properly?"

HAHA seriously? a 6 frames windows parry and i use bad?

ok, show me how you parried enemy with that skill, please.

[Persona Au Gratin]

İlk olarak IronBanana tarafından gönderildi:

"-you can't use your move properly?"

Yeah, you can't. You're saying there's no issue with parrying/Perfect Guard, so I'm holding you to your personal standard you're butting into this thread about. You better keep digging and figure out when it works then, I'm sure you haven't expended every possible resource, because it's only worth changing when you're the one who's inconvenienced. User error, didn't test every possible point or string. Didn't use it against a Fury Attack only. Using the move wrong. Not accepting it'll only do one hit because that'd be unfair to the boss or enemy.

User error.

[IronBanana]

İlk olarak Persona Au Gratin tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak IronBanana tarafından gönderildi:

"-you can't use your move properly?"

Yeah, you can't. You're saying there's no issue with parrying/Perfect Guard, so I'm holding you to your personal standard you're butting into this thread about. You better keep digging and figure out when it works then, I'm sure you haven't expended every possible resource, because it's only worth changing when you're the one who's inconvenienced. User error, didn't test every possible point or string. Didn't use it against a Fury Attack only. Using the move wrong. Not accepting it'll only do one hit because that'd be unfair to the boss or enemy.

User error.

i wait for how to use, show me please, a video if is possible.

[ArthurArtichoke]

I don't think adding stagger damage is very helpful considering you only have a few weapons that are fast enough to effectively get a charge attack off for the critical. Most weapons are so slow and clunky and enemies are so fast that trying to get that charge off without getting interrupted is insane, even with the increased window in the recent update. think speeding up weapons and character movement is the key. If the player can match the enemies, it makes the game more fun. Most of my annoyances with the block system is it's mostly the only way to do things if you don't want to focus on dagger poke for days.

I'm getting farther and farther into the game, and more and more enemies feel like they are trying to force you into blocking by constantly attacking in tons of multi-hit combos, but they literally refuse to relent. The player needs time to attack at some point or the game is freaking boring. I'm having difficulty dealing with the stupid Illusion boss.

[Krazy Wallet]

İlk olarak ArthurArtichoke tarafından gönderildi:

I don't think adding stagger damage is very helpful considering you only have a few weapons that are fast enough to effectively get a charge attack off for the critical. Most weapons are so slow and clunky and enemies are so fast that trying to get that charge off without getting interrupted is insane, even with the increased window in the recent update. think speeding up weapons and character movement is the key. If the player can match the enemies, it makes the game more fun. Most of my annoyances with the block system is it's mostly the only way to do things if you don't want to focus on dagger poke for days.

I'm getting farther and farther into the game, and more and more enemies feel like they are trying to force you into blocking by constantly attacking in tons of multi-hit combos, but they literally refuse to relent. The player needs time to attack at some point or the game is freaking boring. I'm having difficulty dealing with the stupid Illusion boss.

Very possible even with the heaviest weapons. Just need to know your openings. Also, if you want, you can carry a secondary dagger for the fast charge. Just takes a little more capacity to stay at your weight class if you want to go that route.

[ArthurArtichoke]

It may be possible, but it's not worthwhile. Plus, some bosses don't even leave an opening without a distraction.

You can make a greatsword nearly as fast as a longsword without breaking the game. Fighting by attacking every few minutes after dodging or blocking several flurries of attacks only to do mediocre damage on a poke isn't fun.

I like to pull out large weapons like the living puppet axe to test fighting strats, and the timing needs to be so perfect for fast enemies, I might as well just hook a coil on a knife handle and go.

All things are doable, but that doesn't mean it's well balanced.

[Persona Au Gratin]

The first Fury Attack in the game that you're exposed to takes about 1.5 seconds. That's incredibly long wind up to just stand in place, and I think most people fail to perfect guard this move. The problem is that many of the attacks in the game operate this way, Like, I'm getting numbers like impact frame being anywhere from 96 to 116 depending on the attacks. It's a feeling of eternity, but prior to this some attacks can be a lot more abrupt, and I would say this game's rhythm in general could best be described as "Swerving."

The fact the game does this, it makes the boxing dummy really funny because its Fury Attack hits on frame 65. Which means that it doesn't even attempt to "train" you in any meaningful capacity. That's at least 30 frames/half a second slower, and an overt piece of evidence that the game just wants to be difficult in an extremely asinine way.

If believe that action games are just a call and response rhythm game, this is a proof of concept that all that is is a formula for a game that will be convoluted and largely unenjoyable for most of its duration. I don't care if this gets parsed over, I'm gonna say the fact that the two posters above me are suggesting that you be able to do something other than guard is kind of proof that mandatory parrying with perfect timing points while the difference between those Fury Attacks and normal attacks isn't that significant to begin with, that's just a design that's begging for variation, because ultimately you're doing a ton of things that don't matter and then you get the jump scare.

Perfect Guards with this kind of rhythm? Let's say that's not a homogenized idea, or that this rhythm game ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ is a very amateur way of seeing the action game genre... it's telling that the developers had to reduce the HP for most bosses because most people aren't Ongbal. It's absurd. No amount of buffs that don't address "mandatory parry with awful timing" is really going to meaningfully address how this is going to feel like a chore.

From the start of the red glow to the point of "Perfect Guard", the tutorial Fury Attack Parry takes about 1.35 seconds. 95 frames. Note that bosses can begin the wind up of an attack and then glow red in the middle of this animation, which is used to fake out the player and add time atop this lengthy rhythm.

I'd say that Fuoso is probably where I really began to feel like this game just needed to stop doing this and it never does because it's fundamentally how the game works. The problem isn't in the block, it's in the fight design. It sucks.

[Krazy Wallet]

İlk olarak Persona Au Gratin tarafından gönderildi:

The first Fury Attack in the game that you're exposed to takes about 1.5 seconds. That's incredibly long wind up to just stand in place, and I think most people fail to perfect guard this move. The problem is that many of the attacks in the game operate this way, Like, I'm getting numbers like impact frame being anywhere from 96 to 116 depending on the attacks. It's a feeling of eternity, but prior to this some attacks can be a lot more abrupt, and I would say this game's rhythm in general could best be described as "Swerving."

The fact the game does this, it makes the boxing dummy really funny because its Fury Attack hits on frame 65. Which means that it doesn't even attempt to "train" you in any meaningful capacity. That's at least 30 frames/half a second slower, and an overt piece of evidence that the game just wants to be difficult in an extremely asinine way.

If believe that action games are just a call and response rhythm game, this is a proof of concept that all that is is a formula for a game that will be convoluted and largely unenjoyable for most of its duration. I don't care if this gets parsed over, I'm gonna say the fact that the two posters above me are suggesting that you be able to do something other than guard is kind of proof that mandatory parrying with perfect timing points while the difference between those Fury Attacks and normal attacks isn't that significant to begin with, that's just a design that's begging for variation, because ultimately you're doing a ton of things that don't matter and then you get the jump scare.

Perfect Guards with this kind of rhythm? Let's say that's not a homogenized idea, or that this rhythm game ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ is a very amateur way of seeing the action game genre... it's telling that the developers had to reduce the HP for most bosses because most people aren't Ongbal. It's absurd. No amount of buffs that don't address "mandatory parry with awful timing" is really going to meaningfully address how this is going to feel like a chore.

From the start of the red glow to the point of "Perfect Guard", the tutorial Fury Attack Parry takes about 1.35 seconds. 95 frames. Note that bosses can begin the wind up of an attack and then glow red in the middle of this animation, which is used to fake out the player and add time atop this lengthy rhythm.

I'd say that Fuoso is probably where I really began to feel like this game just needed to stop doing this and it never does because it's fundamentally how the game works. The problem isn't in the block, it's in the fight design. It sucks.

I'll be honest, I had a hard time following what your point is here. That the game doesn't make fury attacks intuitive and rhythmic to basic attack patterns? I think that's what you're arguing for. If you took any type of martial arts, self defense, or fencing classes, a good instructor will tell you to be unpredictable. Now, obviously, we didn't have "fury" attacks, but having change-ups, feints, and a diverse set up approaches was needed to be a decent contender in such fields.

Perhaps there's a different point on frames, maybe it has to do with refresh rates, but I'm sorry, I just didn't follow after reading it a few times. Also, I'm now going through the game with an umbrella that has very small guard % and still relying on perfect guard to get through these bosses. I'm dying a lot but it's a ton of fun

[Geo]

Eh I was heavy str build and I had the amulet that buffs damage after a perfect parry so honestly parrying into a light/heavy rewarded me huge damage vs rolling around for a hit