Grind is not a way forward

[Ediros]

To Palworld devs,

while new update gave us plenty of new things to enjoy, it also introduced even more grind than the base game had. In fact, a thread on reddit goes into detail about it (Credit goes to CanConfirmAmHitler on reddit). Link below:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Palworld/comments/1e40rj2/the_new_legendary_schematics_need_to_be_more/

I assure you, most people don't want to grind for months or years like this:



It's widely-known by now that the legendary schematics for the new weapons and armor is tied to atrociously-low drop rates from chests on the oil rig and the Sakurajima dungeons. While I wouldn't want to see these legendary schematics handed out like candy in comparison, having these drop rates be so low is going to make most players not even bother pursuing them altogether, which ruins the point of these legendary schematics acting as long-term chase items for player retention. Why bother trying for a legendary schematic if the odds are so heavily stacked against you that your time is better spent playing another game entirely?

For those unaware of the actual drop rates, here are the loot tables for Sakurajima dungeon and oil rig chests:

https://paldb.cc/en/Sakurajima02

https://paldb.cc/en/Oilrig_02

https://paldb.cc/en/Oilrig_01

For some quick examples of the legendary schematic drop chances: the Cold Resistant Plasteel Armor is a 1/2,915 drop chance; the Gatling Gun is a 1/1,438 drop chance; and the Quad Guided Missile Launcher is an unfathomably-small 1/21,739 drop chance. While the Plasteel Armor drops from repeatedly-farmable purple chests from the oil rig and at the end of the Sakurajima dungeons, the latter two legendary schematics only drop from large oil rig chests on a 30 minute respawn timer. Basically put, you are statistically likely to never see some of these legendary schematics drop, EVER. Despite my constant farming of the Sakurajima dungeons and oil rig since the Sakurajima patch dropped, I have only found one of these new legendary schematics thus far--the Plasteel Helmet, which is a 1/1,748 drop chance.

For reference, the legendary schematics for the level 50 and lower legendary items are a 3% drop chance from their respective alpha Pal encounters from across the region, or a mere 1/33 drop chance. In addition, butchering a caught version of these Pals would give you a second chance at obtaining their respective legendary schematic each time. They weren't guaranteed drops with each kill, but they were very much farmable for anyone who put in the time and effort to do so. Either the drop chance on these legendary schematics needs to be improved *dramatically*, or there should be an alternative method to obtain such legendary schematics in a way that is more easily farmable. Here are some personal ideas of how these legendary schematics could remain hard to obtain, but still be feasibly attainable for players who put in the proper effort:

They could drop from raid bosses. Bellanoire Libero and Blazamut Ryu could each have a 5-10% drop chance for these legendary schematics, while Bellanoire Libero Ultra and Blazamut Ryu Ultra could have a 20-33% drop chance for these schematics.

Hard mode tower bosses should have a chance to drop these legendary schematics, again with a 20-33% drop chance. Perhaps certain tower bosses will only drop certain legendary schematics, allowing you to target farm them. For example, hard mode Zoe & Grizzbolt could drop the Laser Rifle & Plasteel Helmet schematic; Marcus & Faleris could drop the Flamethrower and Heat Resistant Plasteel Armor schematic; Victor & Shadowbeak could drop the Gatling Gun & Lightweight Plasteel Armor; and so on.

They could be purchasable with a hard to obtain currency in-game. This could be the dog coins, but I think trading Ancient Civilization Cores for these legendary schematics could work better, as ACCs are not as easily farmable by comparison. Prices could vary for each legendary schematic, and obtaining these legendary schematics could still remain a long-term endeavor for players without making them unobtainable entirely. For example, the base Plasteel Armor could cost 100 ACCs; the Grenade Launcher could cost 250 ACCs; the Quad Guided Missile Launcher could cost 1,000 ACCs. It would still take a long time to obtain all of the legendary schematics, but at least they would still be obtainable with a focused effort.

Maybe introduce a system where legendary schematics themselves could be *crafted* using lesser versions of the same schematics. For example, to craft a rare-quality (blue) schematic, you would have to combine 3 uncommon-quality (green) schematics of the same kind together, plus some secondary materials (Plasteel, Ancient Civilization Cores, whatever). By stockpiling these schematics, you could eventually build your way up to a legendary schematic of the desired weapon or armor. This would also make opening a chest with a schematic quality you already own feel less bad, because now that duplicate schematic can be used to upgrade to a better quality schematic at a later time.

What do you guys think? How can these legendary schematics be more fairly attainable without them becoming too easily attainable? Right now, these drop rates are simply unacceptable.

[McGoodGreen]

Ignorance is bliss. Don't fret about loot tables. Don't fret over the math. Would your character seriously be sitting there at his desk for hours calculating the odds of loot? Would they even know about the loot?

Everything is manageable without legendary schematics. If it were items that were necessary to achieve or progress in game then it would be completely different. But this is just something for people to hunt after.

You'll enjoy the game more if you don't research the best stuff and how to get it and then make that your goal. Just play the game when its fun. If you make a goal that becomes a chore, it is your own fault for tying your enjoyment of the game to the odds of getting a superfluous item.

We aren't owed any loot. Some things deserve to actually be rare. You can either love loot drops and the randomness that is tied to it, or you can desire a game that hands out loot differently, where you can earn it in chunks and progress.

But thats not how our rewards work. Like many RPG's before, it is luck based. Palworld isn't the first game to have a drop tied to a low drop chance. Many other games have done it, and although it can annoy people, I promise you watch any video of speedrunners or content creators who make finding said rare item their goal and the look of pure satisfaction and ecstasy on their faces made the journey well worth it.

You can only achieve something like that if the goal is a little crazy. That is part of the fun.

I don't mind whatever the devs wanna do to change the drop rate if they see fit, but I will be fine either way. I've played plenty of games where I never got the best weapon or most efficient items, but I still beat the hell out of it.

Don't tie your enjoyment of a game to wiki loot tables and numbers.

[Jaasrg]

I assure you, most people don't want to grind for months or years like this:

Most simply don't care, achievements have shown that.

[Xaelon]

Play solo or on a private server and download a mod to adjust the drop rate.

Because yes, the drop rate for legendary schematics is terrible. If you're on PC you have a way to fix it.

[Sam the big Toucan]

Originally posted by Ediros:

To Palworld devs,

while new update gave us plenty of new things to enjoy, it also introduced even more grind than the base game had. In fact, a thread on reddit goes into detail about it (Credit goes to CanConfirmAmHitler on reddit). Link below:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Palworld/comments/1e40rj2/the_new_legendary_schematics_need_to_be_more/

I assure you, most people don't want to grind for months or years like this:



It's widely-known by now that the legendary schematics for the new weapons and armor is tied to atrociously-low drop rates from chests on the oil rig and the Sakurajima dungeons. While I wouldn't want to see these legendary schematics handed out like candy in comparison, having these drop rates be so low is going to make most players not even bother pursuing them altogether, which ruins the point of these legendary schematics acting as long-term chase items for player retention. Why bother trying for a legendary schematic if the odds are so heavily stacked against you that your time is better spent playing another game entirely?

For those unaware of the actual drop rates, here are the loot tables for Sakurajima dungeon and oil rig chests:

https://paldb.cc/en/Sakurajima02

https://paldb.cc/en/Oilrig_02

https://paldb.cc/en/Oilrig_01

For some quick examples of the legendary schematic drop chances: the Cold Resistant Plasteel Armor is a 1/2,915 drop chance; the Gatling Gun is a 1/1,438 drop chance; and the Quad Guided Missile Launcher is an unfathomably-small 1/21,739 drop chance. While the Plasteel Armor drops from repeatedly-farmable purple chests from the oil rig and at the end of the Sakurajima dungeons, the latter two legendary schematics only drop from large oil rig chests on a 30 minute respawn timer. Basically put, you are statistically likely to never see some of these legendary schematics drop, EVER. Despite my constant farming of the Sakurajima dungeons and oil rig since the Sakurajima patch dropped, I have only found one of these new legendary schematics thus far--the Plasteel Helmet, which is a 1/1,748 drop chance.

For reference, the legendary schematics for the level 50 and lower legendary items are a 3% drop chance from their respective alpha Pal encounters from across the region, or a mere 1/33 drop chance. In addition, butchering a caught version of these Pals would give you a second chance at obtaining their respective legendary schematic each time. They weren't guaranteed drops with each kill, but they were very much farmable for anyone who put in the time and effort to do so. Either the drop chance on these legendary schematics needs to be improved *dramatically*, or there should be an alternative method to obtain such legendary schematics in a way that is more easily farmable. Here are some personal ideas of how these legendary schematics could remain hard to obtain, but still be feasibly attainable for players who put in the proper effort:

They could drop from raid bosses. Bellanoire Libero and Blazamut Ryu could each have a 5-10% drop chance for these legendary schematics, while Bellanoire Libero Ultra and Blazamut Ryu Ultra could have a 20-33% drop chance for these schematics.

Hard mode tower bosses should have a chance to drop these legendary schematics, again with a 20-33% drop chance. Perhaps certain tower bosses will only drop certain legendary schematics, allowing you to target farm them. For example, hard mode Zoe & Grizzbolt could drop the Laser Rifle & Plasteel Helmet schematic; Marcus & Faleris could drop the Flamethrower and Heat Resistant Plasteel Armor schematic; Victor & Shadowbeak could drop the Gatling Gun & Lightweight Plasteel Armor; and so on.

They could be purchasable with a hard to obtain currency in-game. This could be the dog coins, but I think trading Ancient Civilization Cores for these legendary schematics could work better, as ACCs are not as easily farmable by comparison. Prices could vary for each legendary schematic, and obtaining these legendary schematics could still remain a long-term endeavor for players without making them unobtainable entirely. For example, the base Plasteel Armor could cost 100 ACCs; the Grenade Launcher could cost 250 ACCs; the Quad Guided Missile Launcher could cost 1,000 ACCs. It would still take a long time to obtain all of the legendary schematics, but at least they would still be obtainable with a focused effort.

Maybe introduce a system where legendary schematics themselves could be *crafted* using lesser versions of the same schematics. For example, to craft a rare-quality (blue) schematic, you would have to combine 3 uncommon-quality (green) schematics of the same kind together, plus some secondary materials (Plasteel, Ancient Civilization Cores, whatever). By stockpiling these schematics, you could eventually build your way up to a legendary schematic of the desired weapon or armor. This would also make opening a chest with a schematic quality you already own feel less bad, because now that duplicate schematic can be used to upgrade to a better quality schematic at a later time.

What do you guys think? How can these legendary schematics be more fairly attainable without them becoming too easily attainable? Right now, these drop rates are simply unacceptable.

Yeah it really is not i have to agree here.

Also, every new update grows the outclassing tree.

The mass grinding can make it hard to quit the game and play with your friends that can only play something else.

[Deathraven13]

Talk about grinding: make a topic you have to grind to reach the end because it's too long.

[McGoodGreen]

Originally posted by Deathraven13:

Talk about grinding: make a topic you have to grind to reach the end because it's too long.

I tend to type out a lot, and even I can agree the OP is a wall of text.

But you can tell they tried to break it up a bit. Wasn't that hard to read.

Maybe if you struggling with reading, stay away from written forums? Just a thought <3~

[Sam the big Toucan]

Originally posted by Ediros:

To Palworld devs,

while new update gave us plenty of new things to enjoy, it also introduced even more grind than the base game had. In fact, a thread on reddit goes into detail about it (Credit goes to CanConfirmAmHitler on reddit). Link below:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Palworld/comments/1e40rj2/the_new_legendary_schematics_need_to_be_more/

I assure you, most people don't want to grind for months or years like this:



It's widely-known by now that the legendary schematics for the new weapons and armor is tied to atrociously-low drop rates from chests on the oil rig and the Sakurajima dungeons. While I wouldn't want to see these legendary schematics handed out like candy in comparison, having these drop rates be so low is going to make most players not even bother pursuing them altogether, which ruins the point of these legendary schematics acting as long-term chase items for player retention. Why bother trying for a legendary schematic if the odds are so heavily stacked against you that your time is better spent playing another game entirely?

For those unaware of the actual drop rates, here are the loot tables for Sakurajima dungeon and oil rig chests:

https://paldb.cc/en/Sakurajima02

https://paldb.cc/en/Oilrig_02

https://paldb.cc/en/Oilrig_01

For some quick examples of the legendary schematic drop chances: the Cold Resistant Plasteel Armor is a 1/2,915 drop chance; the Gatling Gun is a 1/1,438 drop chance; and the Quad Guided Missile Launcher is an unfathomably-small 1/21,739 drop chance. While the Plasteel Armor drops from repeatedly-farmable purple chests from the oil rig and at the end of the Sakurajima dungeons, the latter two legendary schematics only drop from large oil rig chests on a 30 minute respawn timer. Basically put, you are statistically likely to never see some of these legendary schematics drop, EVER. Despite my constant farming of the Sakurajima dungeons and oil rig since the Sakurajima patch dropped, I have only found one of these new legendary schematics thus far--the Plasteel Helmet, which is a 1/1,748 drop chance.

For reference, the legendary schematics for the level 50 and lower legendary items are a 3% drop chance from their respective alpha Pal encounters from across the region, or a mere 1/33 drop chance. In addition, butchering a caught version of these Pals would give you a second chance at obtaining their respective legendary schematic each time. They weren't guaranteed drops with each kill, but they were very much farmable for anyone who put in the time and effort to do so. Either the drop chance on these legendary schematics needs to be improved *dramatically*, or there should be an alternative method to obtain such legendary schematics in a way that is more easily farmable. Here are some personal ideas of how these legendary schematics could remain hard to obtain, but still be feasibly attainable for players who put in the proper effort:

They could drop from raid bosses. Bellanoire Libero and Blazamut Ryu could each have a 5-10% drop chance for these legendary schematics, while Bellanoire Libero Ultra and Blazamut Ryu Ultra could have a 20-33% drop chance for these schematics.

Hard mode tower bosses should have a chance to drop these legendary schematics, again with a 20-33% drop chance. Perhaps certain tower bosses will only drop certain legendary schematics, allowing you to target farm them. For example, hard mode Zoe & Grizzbolt could drop the Laser Rifle & Plasteel Helmet schematic; Marcus & Faleris could drop the Flamethrower and Heat Resistant Plasteel Armor schematic; Victor & Shadowbeak could drop the Gatling Gun & Lightweight Plasteel Armor; and so on.

They could be purchasable with a hard to obtain currency in-game. This could be the dog coins, but I think trading Ancient Civilization Cores for these legendary schematics could work better, as ACCs are not as easily farmable by comparison. Prices could vary for each legendary schematic, and obtaining these legendary schematics could still remain a long-term endeavor for players without making them unobtainable entirely. For example, the base Plasteel Armor could cost 100 ACCs; the Grenade Launcher could cost 250 ACCs; the Quad Guided Missile Launcher could cost 1,000 ACCs. It would still take a long time to obtain all of the legendary schematics, but at least they would still be obtainable with a focused effort.

Maybe introduce a system where legendary schematics themselves could be *crafted* using lesser versions of the same schematics. For example, to craft a rare-quality (blue) schematic, you would have to combine 3 uncommon-quality (green) schematics of the same kind together, plus some secondary materials (Plasteel, Ancient Civilization Cores, whatever). By stockpiling these schematics, you could eventually build your way up to a legendary schematic of the desired weapon or armor. This would also make opening a chest with a schematic quality you already own feel less bad, because now that duplicate schematic can be used to upgrade to a better quality schematic at a later time.

What do you guys think? How can these legendary schematics be more fairly attainable without them becoming too easily attainable? Right now, these drop rates are simply unacceptable.

You know, some of the items there are okay chances, but thoose other ones...... Oh my GOODNESS!

Also do you think there should be a way to make leg schematic drops more common?

[wildbill]

Originally posted by McGoodGreen:

Originally posted by Deathraven13:

Talk about grinding: make a topic you have to grind to reach the end because it's too long.

I tend to type out a lot, and even I can agree the OP is a wall of text.

But you can tell they tried to break it up a bit. Wasn't that hard to read.

Maybe if you struggling with reading, stay away from written forums? Just a thought <3~

People not reading long topics like this seldom has anything to do with reading comprehension. It has more to do with lack of interest in spending the time reading something that is bound to be so boring, you wish you hadn't read it (I didn't).

That you want to assume it is the person reading the thread that is the problem is interesting.

I even agree that a game doesn't have to be extremely grindy to engage people to play it.

I don't really agree though, that player retention is necessarily a good goal for the devs. Their main goal is to get new players to buy the game, not making a few continue to play. Also of course good reviews and recommendations to play the game, much of which has nothing to do with getting people to play more than a few hundred hours.

[wildbill]

Originally posted by Ediros:

To Palworld devs,

...

What do you guys think? How can these legendary schematics be more fairly attainable without them becoming too easily attainable? Right now, these drop rates are simply unacceptable.

The rest of your message I assume was to the devs, so I wont respond to that. Me personally, I don't ever make it a goal to do all content in a game. I only do what is fun. I haven't even visited the oil rig once. It doesn't sound like much fun. I almost never try to get the best schematics, so not real important to me.

Personally, should I want the legendary, I'd either wait for the drops to be improved or find a mod that improves them and install it.

[McGoodGreen]

Originally posted by wildbill:

Originally posted by McGoodGreen:

I tend to type out a lot, and even I can agree the OP is a wall of text.

But you can tell they tried to break it up a bit. Wasn't that hard to read.

Maybe if you struggling with reading, stay away from written forums? Just a thought <3~

People not reading long topics like this seldom has anything to do with reading comprehension. It has more to do with lack of interest in spending the time reading something that is bound to be so boring, you wish you hadn't read it (I didn't).

That you want to assume it is the person reading the thread that is the problem is interesting.

I even agree that a game doesn't have to be extremely grindy to engage people to play it.

I don't really agree though, that player retention is necessarily a good goal for the devs. Their main goal is to get new players to buy the game, not making a few continue to play. Also of course good reviews and recommendations to play the game, much of which has nothing to do with getting people to play more than a few hundred hours.

Ya'll are entitled to your opinions on the OP quality, but if you have no constructive criticism apart from "too long", well then that isn't actually a critique.

Forums are a place for people to talk and write. If you don't have the energy to read someones full OP, or offer anything to the conversation aside from a trollish "Too long, didn't read" then you not only fail at participating in conversation, but you fail to grasp the point of forums. You could have easily just...not participated.

Always think it is silly when people wanna chime in on an OP that actually put some effort and work into their thoughts with "TOO MUCH THOUGHTS!!! AAAAHHHH MY BRAIN"

We've had a deluge of boring, spammy topics around here lately. If ya'll can muster some thoughts for home boy complaining about lack of materials and being unable to understand aliens, and wanting to make Palworld a carbon copy of Terraria, you have the ability to read through this actual thought out post and build on it.

So damn sad to see.

[wildbill]

Originally posted by McGoodGreen:

Originally posted by wildbill:

People not reading long topics like this seldom has anything to do with reading comprehension. It has more to do with lack of interest in spending the time reading something that is bound to be so boring, you wish you hadn't read it (I didn't).

That you want to assume it is the person reading the thread that is the problem is interesting.

I even agree that a game doesn't have to be extremely grindy to engage people to play it.

I don't really agree though, that player retention is necessarily a good goal for the devs. Their main goal is to get new players to buy the game, not making a few continue to play. Also of course good reviews and recommendations to play the game, much of which has nothing to do with getting people to play more than a few hundred hours.

Ya'll are entitled to your opinions on the OP quality, but if you have no constructive criticism apart from "too long", well then that isn't actually a critique.

Forums are a place for people to talk and write. If you don't have the energy to read someones full OP, or offer anything to the conversation aside from a trollish "Too long, didn't read" then you not only fail at participating in conversation, but you fail to grasp the point of forums. You could have easily just...not participated.

Always think it is silly when people wanna chime in on an OP that actually put some effort and work into their thoughts with "TOO MUCH THOUGHTS!!! AAAAHHHH MY BRAIN"

We've had a deluge of boring, spammy topics around here lately. If ya'll can muster some thoughts for home boy complaining about lack of materials and being unable to understand aliens, and wanting to make Palworld a carbon copy of Terraria, you have the ability to read through this actual thought out post and build on it.

So damn sad to see.

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion too. I don't actually see the steam forums as a source of constructive discussions. There are WAY BETTER PLACES FOR THAT (see, I can do all caps too). If you want to come here for entertainment, I think you won't be disappointed. That is why I'm here. Long boring discussions. Sure you can do that, but I tend not to participate in them. I'm here for the entertainment. If it isn't a fun read, I'm not reading it.

My point of view of these forums is just as valid as you thinking that actual good ideas will result from discussion here. I personally think they have a discord for that. This place is not where they go for that (the devs). So any topic that begins with "To the devs" or something similar is a waste of my time to read.

[Hellsmoke]

Originally posted by Ediros:

While I wouldn't want to see these legendary schematics handed out like candy in comparison, having these drop rates be so low is going to make most players not even bother pursuing them altogether, which ruins the point of these legendary schematics acting as long-term chase items for player retention.

I'm just one user but this describes my point of view perfectly. I was after the pistol blueprint and the crossbow blueprint and I've done the relevant bosses like 10-20 times, never had the blueprints drop and so I've pretty much given up on them. As I mentioned in another thread, in my single player game I do not have one single legendary blueprint. I'm not a hard core gamer these days but I'm not a casual either.

So I agree getting these should be tough but not unobtainable which I'd be willing to bet is the case for most normal players. It's not game breaking for me though so it is what it is.

[wildbill]

Originally posted by Hellsmoke77:

Originally posted by Ediros:

While I wouldn't want to see these legendary schematics handed out like candy in comparison, having these drop rates be so low is going to make most players not even bother pursuing them altogether, which ruins the point of these legendary schematics acting as long-term chase items for player retention.

I'm just one user but this describes my point of view perfectly. I was after the pistol blueprint and the crossbow blueprint and I've done the relevant bosses like 10-20 times, never had the blueprints drop and so I've pretty much given up on them. As I mentioned in another thread, in my single player game I do not have one single legendary blueprint. I'm not a hard core gamer these days but I'm not a casual either.

So I agree getting these should be tough but not unobtainable which I'd be willing to bet is the case for most normal players. It's not game breaking for me though so it is what it is.

They do have some settings that can make things easier (not sure what all of them are). It is very easy to change other settings to make the game less of a grind for single player, so I look forward to them making the legendary drop rate a game setting too. The game is still early access and things are added with every update, so we can hope for this too.

[Zinx]

Originally posted by McGoodGreen:

Originally posted by Deathraven13:

Talk about grinding: make a topic you have to grind to reach the end because it's too long.

I tend to type out a lot, and even I can agree the OP is a wall of text.

But you can tell they tried to break it up a bit. Wasn't that hard to read.

Maybe if you struggling with reading, stay away from written forums? Just a thought <3~

I hope you know why you are getting jesters?!

A lot of words never have reached anyone only quotes!

[Hellsmoke]

Originally posted by wildbill:

They do have some settings that can make things easier (not sure what all of them are). It is very easy to change other settings to make the game less of a grind for single player, so I look forward to them making the legendary drop rate a game setting too. The game is still early access and things are added with every update, so we can hope for this too.

Yeah they are great with the settings, you can customize your game very well and I'm very happy overall with the QoL updates we've been getting in general. I'm pretty confident that they are listening to player feedback and working hard to find the right balance for the game.

Like I said, it's not game breaking for me. Sure, my OCD would love seeing all my items gold but I also like the fact that there are still things out there that I have yet to get, if I had it all, I would've probably stopped playing by now. So maybe they know better than players do about what keeps people engaged.

There are a few things however that I think could use some consideration such as how early you get the ability glasses, I think you should get them much earlier. By the time I got mine, I noticed all the pals I've been working on were trash. By that I mean like 0 attack stats etc. It would be nice to be able to start working on your pals much earlier, especially now that you can buy these potions that raise the pals stats. Basically you can't use most of this stuff or even start breeding until you reach level 35-40. I was planning to make a thread about this myself though.